Hi All,

Do people believe that each kata has a different set of applications? If, as often suggested, there are at least 10 applications to each move in kata then if there were 10 moves in a kata and 10 different applications to each then that means there are100 things to learn. For those that know 10 kata, which isn't many to karateka today, then they may have 1000 applications to sort through.

It doesn't make sense does it? Surely there is an easier way! Well as kata are a collection of the basic elements of karate then by learning the purpose of each basic stance, block, kick, strike and stance one should have a real handle on kata. When one learns a new kata it is only the unique or signature sections of the kata that need to be learned.

A lot of people believe that modern karate is a big improvement on old style karate. Quite rightly they imagine that the major strides in sports science has had a huge effecton training methods and I think they are correct. In areas such as strength, fitness and flexibility, modern methods are terrific. Modern kata are much more athletic and more aesthetically pleasing.. unfortunately they have also lost much of their practicality beause changes to form have created confusion about the purpose of the move.

As an example, the start of Bassai Dai in any modern style is performed at chest height and the application for this move is generally a wrist lock or something similar. In the earlier kata, the two-handed move was at head height and involved receiving a blow aimed at the head and countering immediately with an uppercut to the jaw and a shoulder throw and follow up restraint. These are the types of things in kata that need explanation.

Not every one accepts that kata were changed substantially when karate was developed for the PE programs in schools. Those that already knew karate were aware that target areas were changed, hands were closed, some open hand techniques became blocks and some complex moves were simplified and new kata created to allow stepping stones to the regular kata. The changes were not made at random as there was a method or code if you like which enabled the kata to return to its original form. The new experts were school teachers who taught kids for PE and not self defense, a lot was lost in the process.

Reverse-engineering modern kata as many people, including myself once, can be very tricky without some idea of the 'code' . As well one can examine older kata that existed before the changes were made to get an idea of what might have been changed through comparative analysis. Of course at the end of the day, it is not the kata per se but the application of the basic techniques and combinations found in kata that are important.

Comments welcome..
Boz

Not really sure what you are driving at - so many issues there....but my take fwiw.

Attacks can't really have changed much. Whilst I wasnt around in Okinawa many many years ago I would imagine an assault situation then would be fairly similar to now. Theres only so many ways one unarmed human can attack another. Given that then wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that the 'old' kata still hold value, or can at least be adapted very simply to any possible modern assault.

Having gotten very much into the application side of kata I've been guilty of reading way too much into a technique on many occassions - I put it down to enthusiasm and naivete. Man I can see applications anywhere when I get on a roll - often only to have it suggested to me "matt - all you're really doing is turning around to face the opposite direction" . I guess I can only hope that as my study of this continues it will be easier to see what the original intent was and to be able to interpret the meaning a bit better. Much easier if the kata is as true to the original as possible yes?

WRTO opening sequence of Bassai Dai, Boz, if you mean the forearms are at chest height and the fists are at upper lip, then that's right for GKR for sure.

If some people choose to think of the technique as a joint lock (catching an incoming technique) then they probably also crescent kick at knives!

But using the oft repeated (and I do this myself, mea culpa) any technique might be used a block or a strike or a take down/throw, I certainly given students the option of using the first move as a block for a haymaker, or for shorter people to strike directly under the jaw, and the follow-up move to lock an elbow or wrist and take-down an opponent. As I've said in other threads (possibly other boards), when restricted to the exact pattern and sequence in (modern) kata, the analyses and applications get more and more fanciful and unrealistic.

Applications aside, if you want to do Bassai Dai for a grading in the GKR club, the "correct height" is top lip, the next move is left turning at 45 degrees, and then you step forward into kosa-dachi with reinforced uchi uke.

You are right (as usual) that the martial arts world in general have lost much interpretation and analysis from kata. However, the bottom line for a student in any school of karate where performing a kata is a requirement, is that there must be some level of aesthetics regardless of our (or their) underlying interpretation of what they might be doing.

I did like the comment regarding 1000 possible uses for moves in kata. Another sensei once said he thought up 30 different things he could do with the first two moves of (our) Taigyoko Shodan. Yipes! I must have read it somewhere else, but it is the application of the principles (very few) and not a specific incarnation (very many) that is important, and it is these principles that are hidden in kata.

Hi Matt,
I've snipped for brevity. Attacks are the same or similar and need to be dealt with in the same fashion. The original intent and the original kata may no longer exist and if they did it would be hard to gauge if they were that anyway What I was trying to say is that if the basic techniques of karate are explained as they are learned then the kata isn't going to be such a mystery. A teacher needs to have done some research and/or have access to someone that has if they are are evergoing to unravel the kata.

cheers,
Bob

Well that's one credit unfortunately the way the opening sequence is performed though negates that credit by more than a few demerits.

I think this approach, and many people take it, is like using a hammer to cut wood. I think there are certain techniques whose usage can be expanded but they are more relative to specific tasks.

Much of the modern kata has had more than one set of modifications with a different intention to that of application.

The intent of erly karate was to down an opponent, today it should be to control an opponent IMO Good reply Warwick, I enjoyed it.
Cheers Warwick,
Bob

"The start of Bassai Dai ... is performed at chest height" puzzled me at first but then I figured Boz was talking about the morote uke ("reinforced" block) because a great number of Bassai Dai start with the hands in front of the groin.


Can't disagree with that. There is the tendency for everything to be turned into those mysterious locks and throws because they're far more entertaining than a simple intercept-and-smack-em.

The much-touted "a strike is a block is a lock is a throw" or however it goes seems to be most often used by those who want people to think they know more than they do. It sounds impressive but doesn't really tell you anything. Oh, I could've put that down a bit further, hang on...


I'll qualify what I said above by saying that it's something you have to get past as you learn more - not everyone does. It can be hard for anyone to admit they don't know something and seek to learn more, even harder when you find yourself in the position where people expect you ought to know.

Having said that, there are times you can apply a lock with a soft movement or use a "hard" block to inflict damage instead.



He should read Rick Clark's "75 Down Blocks" - he could add another 45 things to his list

One thing I like about Taikyoku Shodan is that it can be a vehicle for introducing kata with only a single stance, block and strike to have to worry about. It can also be used to practice some basic movement skills and to introduce timing and distancing drills with a partner.


Mick

I onyl had time to read Boz's opening - I havent read any replies so apologies if I re-state something someone else has.

I belive each kata has a defined application. I believe as kata have become modernised they have been bastardised and given many applications....more often related to someones lack of knowledge about the kata and their attempt at guesswork as to what the kata really beholds.

I do however believe that each kata holds true, underlying principles of application for technique that can be used as a basis for further developing the techniques to various situations. This may sound contradictory to my previous statement but it is not. It recognises that kata are defined and meaningful, though they provide substance to the practitioner that affords a broader understanding of the applicability of various techniques.

JC

Does Kihon refer to punches and blocks. Id like it to refer to basic principles.

Theres a few principles to every kata (dont ask me to be more specific or provide examples...I cant) and from these you no doubt could devise 1000's of application but as people have said, some are simply better suited.

As to the bassai comments...the sun and moon gesture or chineese salute CAN be a wrist lock when that sequence is coupled with an entrance technique.

I agree that people attribute unknown moves to wrist locks or joint manipulations alot...but sometimes they are right.

Hi Rancer,

Kihon is usually to mean the fundamental elements of blocks, kicks, punches, strikes, staces and the footwork involved. When you say there are a few principles to every kata but you can'tbe specific then you are at least being honest. It would be better to say there certain principles found in karate that are demonstrated in various kata.

As an example, Naifanchi is a foundation kata as is Sanchin. The stances and foot work are designed to build strength in the legs, transfer weight and utilise your momentum. The slow punches in Sanchin allow for a straight punch, etc. Naifanchi teaches short sharp movements from the previous position.. how to increase your speed of technique and improve your timing. Principles of closest target and closest weapon are seen here.

Pinan and Gekisai kata are training kata, they contain repetiitive movements applicable to self defense but give plenty of practise. Kata was the way students could practise their basic techniques at home. Other kata such as Bassai and Kanku are self defense kata and sections can be pulled out and practised with a partner. The principle of intercepting and delivering an instant counter, throwing the opponent down and restraining him is demonstrated in a couple of places in Bassai.

Boz

Would this be practised alone, inbetween classes say? - This would then be to build up a students repetoire and instill the pattern of potential options into their brains... for application during tutored class? - Kinda like karate homework

Atb

David

Hi David,
I was referring to early karate (Te) practises on Okinawa. The dojo was the place to learn and obtain correction from the experienced Sensei and home was the place to practise. Today it is the other way around. Students are learning from videos, books and the internet, Sensei aren't always experienced and cannot offer the corrections so necessary to real progress and the dojo is the place where karate is practised. Learning takes place very slowly in large groups, small groups is where karate is learned best.
Boz

As you say Boz, students are learning from books, videos and the internet - but these souirces have to be even more precarious in terms of quality teaching than even GKR at its worst?

- I am of course referring to students beginning their studies as opposed to such as yourself who have technique to build on.

For me the inpersonal media have at least two pitfalls.

1) Anyone can publish them - regardless of qualification. With edits even I would look good!
2) Even the most respected texts or other media can be misinterpreted or plain misunderstood by the inexpereinced. Such people have as free an access to much of this media as the more experienced.

How many kids do you know of who stood on one foot with their arms in the air after watching Karate Kid? - Arguably not the best informative source of martial arts

Atb

David

Hi David,

It is essential that beginners start off with someone who understands what they are teaching. Doesn't matter which club as most are guilty of foisting beginners on to inexperienced helpers who invariably fill their head with theirown misinterpretation of what is supposed to be. If it takes a real long time to get to BB then the training is at fault IMO.

Cheers,
Bob

Hi Boz,

I forget where I heard this snippet, but in essence I was told that once at black belt you can begin your studies, the development before hand gives you a foundation to build on.

like passing your driving test, once passed then you learn to drive.

Trouble is, as you point out, if you have gaps in your foundations (or even a weak mix of concrete), it won't be too long before your building collapses.

To return to your topic...



No, I don't.



I am still on the exponential part of the learning curve regarding kata (and many other things!) and read others' opinion with interest. Whilst I am willing to accept that a kata can be a collection of combinations as opposed to one continuos fight sequence, I am not happy with changing the kata to suit another possible application. In my weak and feable mind, if a combination consists of 4 moves, then the bunkai should be restricted to those moves - not omitting one which is in the way, or changing the execution to suit.

Doing so, in my mind, is fantastic - but creates a new kata as opposed to explaining the existing. A lot like a politician answering a difficult question - they'd much rather change the question a little so they can say what they wanted to.

I get your point Boz, regarding the changes made for PE classes having lost the original meaning - and for this perhaps a little reverse egineering is in order, if for no better reason than to restore the point?

Atb

David

Agreed. My disagreement arises when I'm told that my time would be better spent practicing basics, polishing the form. Then it would be like spending all your time polishing the car and not getting any practice on the road.


The problem with kata as one long fight scene is predominantly the variables involved. Who teaches the attackers in what order they are supposed to attack? Or if you take a "he does this so you do that and then he will do this so you do something else and then..." then the same problems of choreography arise. Much simpler (and more palatable) to take chunks and treat them as response and counter type situations.

One of the approaches I use is levels of response - escalating the level of physicality of a defence according to necessity. I find that this approach fits within the parameters of any given kata sequence.

Bear in mind also that in working with kata to derive applications there are "rules" as to how you might change movements so that you don't just change things willy-nilly, so that you can't just ignore bits that don't fit or cobble in other things at random and then still try to call it the same kata.


Mick

Quick post:

What about entrance and exit techniques?

Who are you addressing, anybody, or are you referring to a particular post?

Why don't you qualify your question with what you consider to be an entry and an exit technique!
Thanks,
Boz

Fair point, didnt have time at the time. If that makes sense.

Was addressing anybody who is listening.

Entry and exit techniques as I understand them....say you take someone to the floor as part of an application from a kata, an exit technique would be a stamp to "finish them off" so to speak.

Entrance techniques im not so keen on, but I believe the idea is that its something thats kinda obvious so they didnt bother showing in the kata.

I cant phrase that any better, so give me some leeway when you interpret it please.

They arent something I know a great deal about..but wouldnt mind knowing more, even if its just...they are daft.

Hi Rancer,
Entry techniques usually describe how one uses the particular blocks to gain access to the attacker. As an example when using inside block one uses the non-blocking hand to 'check', then the blocking hand to 'parry' and 'trap or seize' and then respond with other hand to impact or apply a lock etc. Exit techniques can also be a throw or a restraint.
These depend on the level of experience of the practitioner. Thanks Rancer for qualifying your comment.

Boz

So I was way off on the entry techniques then

Cheers Boz

I tend to move and block/redirect/trap at the same time. Or at least I try to. It feels much smoother when you pull it off and there's a sort of feeling of effortlessness when it all goes according to plan. Sometimes you even get to go to plan B when it all goes pear-shaped without losing that feeling, without missing a beat like you meant to take that option all along.

I do think that trying to block and then step in with a counter is less likely to work than if you move to a better position as you block.


Mick

Would it be fair to say kata application starts with common sense as well?

Had an interesting drill in a class the other day - remodelling first kata. Keep the pattern (the 'I' shape) but using any techniques we chose. "Think outside the box". So I tried to. I tried to think of what I would get attacked with, and how I could (realistically) react to it. Was criticised for using 3 stomach level punches in a row - "think OUTSIDE the box" - but at the time, in the little fight in my head, it made sense and it worked. I think my most creative combination was soto uke and back fist.
Anyway, point is, whether it is fair to say that applications are based on common sense as well as kihon.

Hi Nooms,

Yes, karate application, I prefer to say that rather than kata application, is common sense but unfortunately a lot of karate books, videos, and instructors spread bovine excrement and in general, we believe that those that write, produce and teach are experts.. sadly it is not always the case.

In a sense GKR has at least shown that anyone can teach karate, skill and experience is not needed as the general public, ie us, are easily fooled and are far too trusting. People are always pretending to be something they are not for ego and profit and there is another sucker born every moment.

So Nooms, you can't be criticised for three stomach level punches when you do heaps of them in your karate training. We are influenced by our training and develop paradigms subconsciously from what we are taught by our instructors. If our instructors are novices themselves then we are doomed to follow in their footsteps.

If we used our common sense in all of our dealings with karate then we might make better choices now and exhibit real common sense.

Boz

Common sense is important. You only need to look at some of the applications people dream up (yes, me too) to try and explain things. The hard part is dumping things that have flaws.

The common sense approach is to think whether someone would actually attack in that particular fashion that your application has been designed for. Like... they swing a stick at you and then kick. Or you do 7 or 8 blocks in a row without ever striking or countering. Or they grab or punch and then freeze so that you can work your mojo on them.


Mick

You got your Mojo workin' Mick?
( sorry, couldn't resist that )
I think the big problem, is that you you can't plan a fight - all you can do is try and be prepared as best you can.