Two guys came up to my house last week, jus like GKR people do, and started telling me about their club, Kenshukai. I told them I was with GKR, and it went from there.
They claimed the following things:
- They have 55,000 members
- They are a breakaway club from GKR karate
- Their instructors are all brown belt or higher
- Theyare in Australia and the UK
I went to the website www.kenshukai-online.co.uk and www.kenshukai.co.uk and it figured out pretty quickly that this club is almost identical to GKR. What on Earth is going on here?
They have the same belt system, the same katas, everything.
Funnily enough the websites don't refer to GKR in any way i could find, and claim they originate directly from Shotokan and Goju.
Too bad they don't compete in NAS, it would be an awesome rivalry.
Full Version: Kenshukai Karate
Hmmm....... There are quite a few of these clubs floating around these days especially here in the UK, I myself went to one about 18 months ago - just to check it out, again - same kata, same grading criteria, same method of promotion.
I can only assume most of these are started by ex-instructors and students who have decided to branch out on their own. I'm led to believe that some of these clubs have been quite successful, the one I visited certainly seemed to be doing ok!
I can only assume most of these are started by ex-instructors and students who have decided to branch out on their own. I'm led to believe that some of these clubs have been quite successful, the one I visited certainly seemed to be doing ok!
Kenshukai was I believe the first split off from GKR.
The guy who started it was pretty much Shihans predeccessor in all but name.
There was a big old court case at the time it all kicked off. Used to be if you typed GKR into google you'd get a bit of info on the case. Try it and see.
I doubt they are as big as they say otherwise they'd be more known, in fact I didnt even realise they were in Australia.
Its like GKRs claim of 45,000 members. Hor;licks, they have 45,000 ATTENDANCE (still a large amount)
The guy who started it was pretty much Shihans predeccessor in all but name.
There was a big old court case at the time it all kicked off. Used to be if you typed GKR into google you'd get a bit of info on the case. Try it and see.
I doubt they are as big as they say otherwise they'd be more known, in fact I didnt even realise they were in Australia.
Its like GKRs claim of 45,000 members. Hor;licks, they have 45,000 ATTENDANCE (still a large amount)
ho hum.....
don't know if this is anything to do with KSK, but...
http://www.hyndco.com.au/Sullivan%20Sullivan%20&%20Anor.htm
don't know if this is anything to do with KSK, but...
http://www.hyndco.com.au/Sullivan%20Sullivan%20&%20Anor.htm
I note from the judgement that it was Anor v Anor - wonder if they are still married...... 
oh veeeeeeeery droll!!
QUOTE
bowing in/out ceremony
heels together - move your left leg in and place your arms by your sides, as if you are standing to attention.
seiza - drop to your right knee first, then into a kneeling position facing the front of the class
mokuso - meaning "close your eyes", you are to sit with your eyes shut and take the time to relax, prepare yourself for training and think about what you are going to learn (or reflect on what you have just learnt).
mokuso yame - "open your eyes". There will now be three commands to bow to.
(1) Shihan Sclanders - REI - On the instruction rei, place your left hand on the floor in front of you and then your right, forming a triangle with your thumbs and index fingers. You then bow your head, placing it on top of your hands on the floor for approximatley 3 seconds, and then sit back up. This first bow is a sign of respect to Shihan Sclanders, the master instructor and founder of Kenshukai Karate.
(2) Sensei - REI - On rei, again postion your left hand, then your right, bow, and sit up. This bow is a sign of respect to your sensei.
(3) autagani - - REI The final bow, performed exactly the same as the others. This time everyone is bowing to everyone else as a sign of respect for fellow karate students.
the class will now be carried out, containing a mixture of basic punches, blocks, kicks and stances, followed by some kata and/or kumite. At the end of the class, the bowing ceremony will take place again before you leave.
heels together - move your left leg in and place your arms by your sides, as if you are standing to attention.
seiza - drop to your right knee first, then into a kneeling position facing the front of the class
mokuso - meaning "close your eyes", you are to sit with your eyes shut and take the time to relax, prepare yourself for training and think about what you are going to learn (or reflect on what you have just learnt).
mokuso yame - "open your eyes". There will now be three commands to bow to.
(1) Shihan Sclanders - REI - On the instruction rei, place your left hand on the floor in front of you and then your right, forming a triangle with your thumbs and index fingers. You then bow your head, placing it on top of your hands on the floor for approximatley 3 seconds, and then sit back up. This first bow is a sign of respect to Shihan Sclanders, the master instructor and founder of Kenshukai Karate.
(2) Sensei - REI - On rei, again postion your left hand, then your right, bow, and sit up. This bow is a sign of respect to your sensei.
(3) autagani - - REI The final bow, performed exactly the same as the others. This time everyone is bowing to everyone else as a sign of respect for fellow karate students.
the class will now be carried out, containing a mixture of basic punches, blocks, kicks and stances, followed by some kata and/or kumite. At the end of the class, the bowing ceremony will take place again before you leave.
Hey, some origionality, please!
I guess they decided they were onto a winning formula, and decided to stick with it.
Reading the stuff about Adrian Sclanders brings back faint memories from GKR club magazines etc. I wonder what happenned to cause the falling out?
From what the stuff about the case alledges, Kancho tried to fiddle him out of his money 
Who won the case?
Who won the case?
I guess thats what happens when a club shifts its focus from training students to money
Im watching it happen with another club I train with and its depressing. I dont begrudge anyone making a quid, its just when it becomes the sole reason.
Ive also sadly met depressingly few people who can share a profit making venture without wanting more than their entitlement, which could be the case here too.
Im watching it happen with another club I train with and its depressing. I dont begrudge anyone making a quid, its just when it becomes the sole reason.
Ive also sadly met depressingly few people who can share a profit making venture without wanting more than their entitlement, which could be the case here too.
Here's a question for you: -
Martial arts, from my limited understanding, were developed and practised by monks way back in the day. From my naieve point of view monks take vows of poverty generally.
Therefore is making money out of Karate against all the principles that Karate is supposed to convey to the karateka?
Martial arts, from my limited understanding, were developed and practised by monks way back in the day. From my naieve point of view monks take vows of poverty generally.
Therefore is making money out of Karate against all the principles that Karate is supposed to convey to the karateka?
Monks?
There are some vague connections to monks but it would be simplfying far too much to say monks founded MA's.
BUT using that example, why did these monks use martial arts?
To defend themselves. They got their principles etc from their religion, MA's was a tool for bashing stuff with.
The whole enlightenment through MA raining seems to be a relatively new thing. Maybe in a couple hundred years people will seek enlightenment by shooting things with our old fashioned AK47's..
There are some vague connections to monks but it would be simplfying far too much to say monks founded MA's.
BUT using that example, why did these monks use martial arts?
To defend themselves. They got their principles etc from their religion, MA's was a tool for bashing stuff with.
The whole enlightenment through MA raining seems to be a relatively new thing. Maybe in a couple hundred years people will seek enlightenment by shooting things with our old fashioned AK47's..
I think that principle already exists in Africa and the Middle East.
lol @ fangorn..
its the only gripe my family have with gkr; the money side of it all. sure, kancho gives a lot to charity, but (going to go all preachy now) somewhere in the bible theres a story of a poor widow and some really rich guys. each of the rich guys gave half of what they owned to the church and expected God to bless them and thank them because they had given the church so much. through the back door of the church came a poor widow, who extracted from her purse the only two coins she owned and placed them in the offering pot. the rich priests laughed at her and asked her 'what do you expect God to do with your meagre donation?'
the answer was, God could do so much more with thiswomans donation than with all of the priests hundreds of pounds; because in giving all she had, she was a true servant of God. The preists had plenty left to live off and would not miss their silver coins, but she was willing to give upo everything....'
sorry but think it demonstrates my point quite nicely. sure kancho gives a lot of money to charity but wheres the humility that karate promotes in living in a castle and wearing diamonds the size of my eyeballs on his fingers..?
its the only gripe my family have with gkr; the money side of it all. sure, kancho gives a lot to charity, but (going to go all preachy now) somewhere in the bible theres a story of a poor widow and some really rich guys. each of the rich guys gave half of what they owned to the church and expected God to bless them and thank them because they had given the church so much. through the back door of the church came a poor widow, who extracted from her purse the only two coins she owned and placed them in the offering pot. the rich priests laughed at her and asked her 'what do you expect God to do with your meagre donation?'
the answer was, God could do so much more with thiswomans donation than with all of the priests hundreds of pounds; because in giving all she had, she was a true servant of God. The preists had plenty left to live off and would not miss their silver coins, but she was willing to give upo everything....'
sorry but think it demonstrates my point quite nicely. sure kancho gives a lot of money to charity but wheres the humility that karate promotes in living in a castle and wearing diamonds the size of my eyeballs on his fingers..?
I've read that post somewhere else word for word......
Some reading I did a while ago suggested that as monks meditated for extended periods they needed a rigorous training and conditioning regime to not only counterbalance the inactivity, but to give them the physical and mental strength to be able to complete such long days.
Matt, you truly are a fountain of knowledge
I knew Adrian S when he was with GKR and he's quite a great guy in all respects. He would be without question the most intimidating person I can think of to step up against in kumite and his punches hit you much the same way as a bowling ball would if you dropped it on yourself 
I also know 2 of the most senior guys that went from GKR with him and I know them much better than I did Adrian.
What made them leave? Money was a small part of it, but not necessarily a selfish one on their part (ever thought he may have been sticking up for the little people in GKR??) and the direction the club was taking was another. Ultimately it was a personal clash with Bob S which finished deal and the decision was made to split.
Stacey K picked up on some of these aspects and the changes to GKR over recent years are in cases in response to issues raised by Adrian though certainly handled a little more carefully and strategically.
GKR lost a great deal of experience, skill, talent and knowledge when those guys left the club and it has been hard to train up those remaining to fill their positions. It will be hard to ever reach the point of balance again as many of GKR's new emerging heirarchy is bred from within the club. It will be an interesting situation in 10 years time to see how the club has grown.
JC
I also know 2 of the most senior guys that went from GKR with him and I know them much better than I did Adrian.
What made them leave? Money was a small part of it, but not necessarily a selfish one on their part (ever thought he may have been sticking up for the little people in GKR??) and the direction the club was taking was another. Ultimately it was a personal clash with Bob S which finished deal and the decision was made to split.
Stacey K picked up on some of these aspects and the changes to GKR over recent years are in cases in response to issues raised by Adrian though certainly handled a little more carefully and strategically.
GKR lost a great deal of experience, skill, talent and knowledge when those guys left the club and it has been hard to train up those remaining to fill their positions. It will be hard to ever reach the point of balance again as many of GKR's new emerging heirarchy is bred from within the club. It will be an interesting situation in 10 years time to see how the club has grown.
JC
Just checked out the sites and it really does seem a rebadged gkr.
If they had such a problem with bob s why take that horrible thing called second kata with them? Wouldnt you want to totally differentiate yourself?
Thanks for that extra info JC, goes a fair way to explain why the UK situation is as it seems.
If they had such a problem with bob s why take that horrible thing called second kata with them? Wouldnt you want to totally differentiate yourself?
Thanks for that extra info JC, goes a fair way to explain why the UK situation is as it seems.
Even the badge looks the same. Except it has an eagle or something on it. Typically Sclanders' name is mud to GKR people, just like most others who have left. JC gives an interesting viewpoint.
JC, from what you have said I gather it would make you uncomfortable at the least when they went around saying how Bob S was stabbed in the back and other such things? The court summaries about how one party wanted the contents of the allegedly stolen documents brought to light and the other wanted them hidden from view is cause for wonder too...
Mick
JC, from what you have said I gather it would make you uncomfortable at the least when they went around saying how Bob S was stabbed in the back and other such things? The court summaries about how one party wanted the contents of the allegedly stolen documents brought to light and the other wanted them hidden from view is cause for wonder too...
Mick
Mick
Ultimately I'm not fazzed - what happened happened.
I'm not really sure why they chose to so closely reflect GKR with the new club that was formed. I'm of the opinion that for the most part there was no problem with GKR, it was a the detail of how it was run and where it was heading that was the issue. So I guess that maybe this new club is GKR run as Adrian and the guys thought it should be.
Bob made it an unpleasant experience and GKR made it a bastard situation for them when they left. That is why the courts were involved. The exposure of papers was one party openly saying what's your problem we have nothing to hide and nothing to gain, the other side was if you don't play according to the way we see it, we'll do our best to incapasitate your ability to play and then we'll hide the rule book that we all used to pay attention to.
Nobody was stabbed in the back...a clash of egos at best
JC
Ultimately I'm not fazzed - what happened happened.
I'm not really sure why they chose to so closely reflect GKR with the new club that was formed. I'm of the opinion that for the most part there was no problem with GKR, it was a the detail of how it was run and where it was heading that was the issue. So I guess that maybe this new club is GKR run as Adrian and the guys thought it should be.
Bob made it an unpleasant experience and GKR made it a bastard situation for them when they left. That is why the courts were involved. The exposure of papers was one party openly saying what's your problem we have nothing to hide and nothing to gain, the other side was if you don't play according to the way we see it, we'll do our best to incapasitate your ability to play and then we'll hide the rule book that we all used to pay attention to.
Nobody was stabbed in the back...a clash of egos at best
JC
JC I have since heard that Adrain S has since left kenshukai? Are there problems over there in the old dart?
also that link didn't work for me, are there any others???
also that link didn't work for me, are there any others???
Maybe I'll ask next time someone knocks on my door: they sem to have no problem telling me about 'the disagreement' if it makes them look better.
BTW just google the club name and you get a few websites on them.
BTW just google the club name and you get a few websites on them.
Hmm...check out what I found on their forum:
Wonder why?
QUOTE ("Gingery")
"I have no idea about Kata on VHS but i do know of a website where you can download them.
Be warned though it is not a Kenshukai site, it is a style of Karate that appears very similar called Go-Kan-Ryu, so there may be slight differences in the way they perform their Kata, the first thing i noticed was that it was very slow and some of the movements are a bit sloppy (heh but then again i'm a perfectionist, which drives me mad when i don't do it properly). I have watched Saifa, Bassai-Dai and Seiunchin of the series and they appear to be very similar (though not exactly the same), I don't know about the rest.
The site is http://www.gkrkarate.org. The Katas are in the section named 'Learn a Kata' oddly enough.
Though I do stess, heh as i have no doubt The Senseis will too, that these are no substitute for actual instruction from someone, preferably your Sensei, who knows the Kata, especially as it is a different club."
Be warned though it is not a Kenshukai site, it is a style of Karate that appears very similar called Go-Kan-Ryu, so there may be slight differences in the way they perform their Kata, the first thing i noticed was that it was very slow and some of the movements are a bit sloppy (heh but then again i'm a perfectionist, which drives me mad when i don't do it properly). I have watched Saifa, Bassai-Dai and Seiunchin of the series and they appear to be very similar (though not exactly the same), I don't know about the rest.
The site is http://www.gkrkarate.org. The Katas are in the section named 'Learn a Kata' oddly enough.
Though I do stess, heh as i have no doubt The Senseis will too, that these are no substitute for actual instruction from someone, preferably your Sensei, who knows the Kata, especially as it is a different club."
Wonder why?
OK, that is sooooooo bad
*shakes head in wonder... *
*shakes head in wonder... *
And a guy on the forums ("Gojuguy") was totally slating GKR. Even though he wasn't a practitioner of GKR or the KSK. He judged it on "guesting at GKR "lessons"".
Stupid...
Stupid...
Actually that's kinda funny... Wonder where I've heard people slating other clubs who have the same kata but a different name on the letterheads...?
Mick
Mick
Kata is kata. Apart from the odd spelling difference here and there and some of the moves are different (I watched a shotokan guy do Bassai Dai with the rest of my class)....meh.
It's having the same...well...everything that bugs me. Syllabus, kata, techniques...you name it. Same badge colours too. You'd think they'd have at least their own badge name and colours....
It's having the same...well...everything that bugs me. Syllabus, kata, techniques...you name it. Same badge colours too. You'd think they'd have at least their own badge name and colours....
QUOTE
Be warned though it is not a Kenshukai site, it is a style of Karate that appears very similar called Go-Kan-Ryu
So someone out there actually is more clueless than your average GKR student
At least they make us look better...i think
Try this link, it is a direct listing of the two cases. It may be a bit difficult to understand as it is in legal-ese so if you are having difficulty skip to the conclusion.
From what I understood, R. Sullivan has bent the truth somewhat when he talks abut this to people at his seminars. However I will let you come to your own conclusions.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/form/search/?que...auto&meta=%2Fau
If you are having problems with this, just go to the www.austlii.edu.au and search for kenshukai. They should pop up then.
From what I understood, R. Sullivan has bent the truth somewhat when he talks abut this to people at his seminars. However I will let you come to your own conclusions.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/form/search/?que...auto&meta=%2Fau
If you are having problems with this, just go to the www.austlii.edu.au and search for kenshukai. They should pop up then.
It made more or less no sense whatsoever to me
Whenever an employee of a business gets to the point they want to go out on their own (and mostly they want to take clients with them) - be it lawyers, accountants, hairdressers or karate instructors, this usually happens. The gist of the laws are that no matter what is in a restrictive covenant that is signed, you cant stop someone earning a living from their chosen profession. You can however set parameters to this. In this case the court ordered they were forbidden from operating in direct competition for 9 months (unless they were contacted by way other than doorknocking), not allowed to 'plot the destruction of GKR' (wow - theres paranoia there) or discredit them (theres libel laws anyway), nor pinch staff or students. After 9 months (except the 'plot destruction bit - which I gather continues) - fine.
Im sure this has a lot to do with the subsequent aggressive expansion of GKR. In a business sense it was probably the best course of action.
Im sure this has a lot to do with the subsequent aggressive expansion of GKR. In a business sense it was probably the best course of action.
Has anyone trained in it? Done a class?
I have'nt trained in it, but a couple of years ago I organized a seminar here with Paul Ceberano Shihan or back then it was renshi. A Guy came to the seminar who was one of the rms from that club, he told us the whole story, he said that there were a few regions of gkr in england that were peeved off with the way the club was run so they basically got some new badges made went to all their students and said the club has changed its name and gave them all a new badge.
It probably was'nt that blatent but that was what I read into what he was telling us.
He was a really nice guy, and like most people that leave gkr he thought gkr were out ethics and he just wanted to run a club that was run a bit more ethically ( is that a real word).
Shihan has actually kept contact with him and wants to go there to run a seminar for them.
I wont say his name but he was originally from Perth and was back here for a holiday at the time.
rocket
It probably was'nt that blatent but that was what I read into what he was telling us.
He was a really nice guy, and like most people that leave gkr he thought gkr were out ethics and he just wanted to run a club that was run a bit more ethically ( is that a real word).
Shihan has actually kept contact with him and wants to go there to run a seminar for them.
I wont say his name but he was originally from Perth and was back here for a holiday at the time.
rocket
QUOTE (rocket73 @ Sep 12 2005, 07:47 PM)
It probably was'nt that blatent but that was what I read into what he was telling us.
Actually Rocket it pretty well was that blatant. I know a couple of Instructors here in Adelaide who went through this back in 2000 and from what they said, they were called back to the RMs house after a grading and told that GKR was going broke, the club was bought out by someone else and here are the new badges, paperwork etc etc. Some went with the new club, some stayed with GKR as they contacted RS and he came to sort it out.
I do not know the full story, that is just what I have been told by somebody who was directly involved at the time.
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