From "Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate no Kata: Dentotekkina Kata to Sono Imi":



As the kata of karate spread, Gekisai 1 & 2 originated from the combined techniques of the Goju Ryu and Shorin Ryu systems. They are not original Goju Ryu kata, but these kata are the first to be taught in the dojo. Because basic techniques and combination techniques which are always difficult are included even in kata for the beginner, practice of these kata are continued after one becomes a high level person. The first halves of Gekisai 1 & 2 are the same pattern, the second halves differ.

Note: Any errors in translation are my own.


Mick

Your point being?

(and I am leading somewhere with that )

??

Ah, a babelfish translation. I think mine makes more sense, and I will post the next section soonly.

Basically the Gekisai kata were created as introductory kata. You could liken them in some respects to being the Goju equivalent of the Pinan/Heian kata.


Mick

Sequence 1:


1. From jodan uke to shiko dachi with gedan barai
(explanation) While moving the body, you deflect the punch attack to the face from the left side with jodan uke, then without pausing enter with the right foot and deliver jun tsuki. After parrying the partner’s punch, when the kicking attack commences, the body is pulled into shiko dachi and respond with gedan uke. The same actions are also done to deal with similar attacks from the right side.



Flow of kata
From gedan barai uke no kamae (photograph 1) the right foot takes one step directly forward (photograph 2) pivot the foot on the tip of the sole and quickly rotate the hips, changing to face the left side with jodan uke. (photograph 3) Now the feet become left foot forward sanchin dachi, the left arm twists so that the partner’s punching arm skips over and the punch rises. If one hand punches, then the other hand will be pulled to the side. Next the right foot takes one step forward, the left hand pulls to the side while the right hand punches oi tsuki (jun tsuki). (photograph 4) Without pause pivot on the left foot and thrust the right foot backward (to the right side) into shiko dachi with left hand gedan barai uke. (photograph 5) Now the body faces toward the front. The movements from jodan uke to gedan barai uke are done all as a single motion. Next the left foot is moved to become sanchin dachi facing to the right side, the hands repeat the same movements. (photograph 6-8)

I haven't included the photos...


Mick

Ah - I was assuming you were singing the praises and virtues of these kata, in which case I was going to ask why they werent in your syllabus

Nope I don't know the Gekisai kata, never saw any point in learning them really. Unless you're doing Goju. But then it depends on your teacher too. All this is in the interests of opening up discussion.


Mick

Are there any Goju influences prelavent in your style Mick? Goju seems to be very much in vogue with the world and his dog at the moment.
I'd answer this question myself, but I tidied up the other day and lost your style syllabus

I learned a "version" of gekisai (from a GKR sensei who left for another karate style the same week), which seems like it starts pretty similar to what you're quoting mick.

IIRC, Gekisai used to go between Taigyoko Nidan and Saifa, or between Saifa and Bassai Dai in the "Old Syllabus" ™, so it was an early-ish one.

I personally still practice the version I was shown, and particularly like the kick, elbow strike, tetsui, reverse punch combination. I sometimes give it out to students as a "fun" combination in classes, knowing they'll never see it in a grading or in a kata they will learn with GKR.

No, not really. Although I practice Tensho and could conceivably use some Goju kata should the need arise, I see no point in adding kata just for the sake of having more kata listed on the syllabus.
Some would say that adding kata to a syllabus to challenge students or give them something more to learn is a sign that the teacher has run out of things to teach, and it's more interesting that doing pushups...

Tossing in a different kata for comparison or just for a bit of variety is a different matter. There's also the need to have the flexibility in a syllabus to be able to substitute kata if the need arises e.g. for a particular student. Kata are generally not "one size fits all" and were never meant to be. Of course now I'm talking about where a teacher knows enough to be able to teach individuals and not just stick to a formula designed to cater for the lowest common denominator.



It does, and in some parts more than others too. Personally I would say that finding a good teacher is more important and that the system should be of secondary concern.


Mick

Sequence 2:


2. The sequence of techniques from chuudan uke and kick to horizontal strike
(explanation) After parrying the punch attack with chuudan uke, insert a kicking attack, when this foot is dropped the partner’s instep is held down with the sole, preventing movement from the elbow strike, uraken and attack the groin with gedan barai, finishing with gyaku tsuki. After this, the rear foot moves in to shift the centre of gravity so that you can respond to an attack from behind, without pausing respond with horizontal attack.



Flow of kata
From the last position the left foot takes one step forward with left hand to chuudan uke no kamae (photograph 1) then again step the right foot forward one step with right hand preparing to chuudan uke, (photograph 2) insert a kick with the left foot. (photograph 3) When you drop the foot to become zenkutsu dachi do left elbow strike (photograph 4) uraken attack (photograph 5) and finish with gedan barai (photograph 6) then while the left hand pulls to the side the right hand punches together with kiai. (photograph 7) Next the right foot comes in, the right hand opens with palm facing downward and look to the rear and insert horizontal fist. During this the body faces to the right side and comes to heiko dachi. (photograph 8) From the kick to the horizontal attack is done as a single action. (Up to here Gekisai 1 & 2 are the same)


Mick

Gosh, it looks just the same so far as what I was shown!

Can't wait for the next bit ...

Mine has you repeating the sequence on the right side, then some half mawashi uke and double punching to each northward 45-degree angle.

babelfish translation yes inded. Doesn't it suck

It's also a partial explanation why someone who speaks (and reads) Japanese can read it but not understand it. You need to know which words are better left untranslated. For instance, "gedan barai uke no kamae" translates literally as something like "posture of lower level sweeping receiving". If I was to scan the associated photograph those familiar with Goju kata would recognise the posture.


Mick

i went to a goju class a while back and watched the 'geeky' kata (so called because i can never remember the name, not meant disrespectfully...) and they seemed so much more complicated than Taggy 1 and Taggy 2 that i didn't even attempt them... Agh...

Sequence 3:

3. Last half of Gekisai 1
(explanation) Change posture to face the rear, the moves have the same meaning as description 2 above. After the horizontal strike, the partner is grabbed and pulled as both hands push down to apply a throwing technique.


Flow of kata
Change to face the direction of the horizontal fist (to the rear), become sanchin dachi and after the left hand chuudan uke (photograph 1) insert a kick with the right foot. (photograph 2) Continue as in description 2 above, similarly with right elbow strike, uraken, gedan barai which are the same movements but with left and right hands and feet exchanged. (photographs omitted) From the left handed horizontal strike in heiko dachi (photograph 3) the left foot is pulled back (to the rear), to face the front in zenkutsu dachi, at the same time both hands pull across in front of the chest (photograph 4) and finish with morote tsuki left hand up and right hand down. (photograph 5) Next the left foot comes to the side of the right foot, and then the right foot pulls back, changing position, and at the same time the positions of the hands change in the same way to finish in zenkutsu dachi with morote tsuki. (photograph 6) The morote tsuki (photograph 5-6) is done as a single action.
The hands open and come together with right hand on top while right foot is pulled forward (photograph 7) to become the finishing posture. (photograph 8-9)


Only section 4: the last part of Gekisai 2 to go... *puff* *puff* *puff*


Mick

As for why I started posting the material on the Gekisai kata, because further on in the book the chapter covering Saifa is prefaced with:



Again, my own translation. Being one of the earlier ones it's probably a bit clunkier than the more recent attempts. You get the gist though...


Mick

Melil their not that hard i could teach you Gekisai dai Ichi in one session.

You learn Ichi for white belt and Ni for yellow. Around Yellow belt you learn the applications. These applications are still current up to brown belt gradings as we only have 6 kata for black belt ie one for each belt colour plus Sanchin.

At brown belt you learn the two man version of both katas. This is the same pattern for the kata side but done in a straight line, your partner does the attacking side which is basicly the opposite blocks punches etc. This is combining san dan gi and the kata for two man. Before free sparring became more popular this was the pre-arranged sparring a lot of styles did.

I have always been told karate is like a pyramid if you only build one or two sides side ie sparring it will colapse, this is a way of combining Sparring, Kata, Kata applications and Basics to form a strong base, which can then be build on, ie a white belt kata becomes interwoven in black belt gradings but at a higher level.

cheers
Freek

thanks goju freek; i think in seeing them only a few times i did what i do with most new kata: PANIC! lol.. i must get back to Goju one of these days; havent been around to it because my mums in hospital at the moment and i have to look after my sister on wednesday nights but one day.. one day...

It used to be so much more interesting as a junior kyu grade when we learnt gekisai kata....sigh...those were the days....

I feel so guilty showing my Sunday morning class (of 4th kyus and above) through Gekisai I. Only 40-minutes and half of them could get through it by the numbers.

As an exercise.

Just for fun, you understand.

They seemed to like it, and we did Saifa and Bassai Dai afterwards, really.

I'm gonna burn for this one!

I used to run through Tensho with mine

Our RM got us doing a ... kata ... that Mick might remember I asked him about cos I'm totally hopeless with names...

And you can't tell me that knowing how Tensho starts hasn't helped at least a couple of people when it comes to Sanseru...


Mick

And here we go - finally, sequence 4:

4. Last half of Gekisai 2
(explanation) Change direction to face the rear and quickly parry the partner’s attack with yoko uke, the movements from this change of posture until the horizontal strike have the same meaning as in section 2. Next the stance becomes neko ashi dachi and the arms cross, the partner’s punch attack is received with osae uke (pressing block) with the back of the arm and after breaking the partner’s balance, grab and pull and apply a throwing technique. At the end where it finishes with tora guchi (tiger’s mouth), the animal movement of the kata is symbolic of its origin.


Flow of kata
Change to face the direction of the horizontal strike (the rear), into a posture of left foot forward sanchin dachi with yoko uke. (photograph 1) Next while advancing the right foot 1 step forward the positions of the hands quickly swap (photograph 2) and then immediately restore the right foot to its original position while hands also restore to original positions. (photograph 3) After this from the kick with the right foot until the horizontal strike, is essentially the same as section 3 above. (photograph missing)
The left foot kicks to the inside, then from heiko dachi and left hand horizontal strike (photograph 4-5) the left foot pulls rearward to the left diagonal, so that the body becomes neko ashi dachi facing the frontward right diagonal. Now the left hand pulls to the side with palm upward, then from the left elbow striking into the right hand (photograph 6) lift up so that it brushes over the back of the hand then while the elbow pivots to the right the back of the hand drops to face downward. Then both arms pull to the sides (photograph 7) before pushing out to the front to become posture of tora guchi (tiger mouth). (photograph 8) Next move the right foot toward the right side and change to face the frontward left diagonal, in the posture of neko ashi dachi swap hands and perform the same movements. (photograph 9-11) Pivot on the right foot and change to face the front in neko ashi dachi (photograph 12) and bring the hands together while pulling the left foot in to stand up and enter the finishing posture. (photograph 13-15)


Mick

*daft, daft, daft*

Okay. Now that I understand that Gekisai I & II actually DO have some relevance for me, I am going to throw a Nooms translation out to see if I've got this at all.
(sorry - I realise that the essence of the text is about to get completely lost, but we can always come back for it later)

Firstly, the kata has a 'T' shaped floor pattern? And there are shades of just about every GKR kata up to and incl. sanseru/sepai in there?

Part 1 describes the first three ... counts of Gekisai Dai? And if done with a partner might be:
1. jodan uke in sanchin dachi (partner: head level punch?)
2. oi tsuki? in zenkutsu dachi (partner: … a block hopefully! )
3. gedan uke in shiko dachi (partner: a kick?)

And Gekisai Sho has
1. left hand uchi uke, then right hand body level punch, in left foot forward neko ashi dachi (partner: body level punch, block)
2. right hand jodan uke, left hand body level punch, in right foot forward zenkutsu dachi (partner: head level punch, block)
3. gedan uke in shiko dachi (partner: a kick?)

Part 2 I will do tomorrow when I have had some sleep, and found out if I'm on the right track so far.
Assuming someone tells me.

Hi there

WE do a lot with the gekisai kata, they are the intermediate kata before you move on to the first advanced kata which is saifa. We do gekisai ich, gekisai ni, gekisai san which is a two person kata, gekisai bunkai which is great to learn, then another kata called choku which is another form of gekisai. The most important ones are ich and ni, but by learning the other ones it can help in making you think outside the box in terms of applications.

I think thats where people get get miss lead a bit with kata and applications. You see a block is only a block if thats what you think it is, start to think of your blocks as strikes or your strikes as blocks, or maybe they could be locks or holds. Look at the footwork you use, a lot of katas have leg sweeps and take downs, but most people dont know this. When you do this it opens a whole new world and your kata becomes far more interesting.

Also we are encouraged to learn kata from other styles as this can help you to see things in your other kata that you didnt see before.

Another good way is to do your kata backwards, or do it reverse as in if a strike is over the front foot do it over the back foot. TRy doing your kata on the spot without foot work, or you could do the footwork without using hands.Even basic taikyoku katas can become quite interesting if you break them right down. If you teach, challenge your students by asking them for an application to a part in the kata, then get them to demonstrate this with a partner. Then ask another student for another application for the same part, keep doing this until you run out of ideas. It will amaze you at how much you will find. A couple of weeks ago we spent a whole class doing this on our most basic kata, it was great fun, when you do it with saifa or seinchin you can come up with some really cool stuff.

give it a go

rocket

We have tried that on occasion - the find an application idea - I find it enormously frustrating within GKR confines though. Because we are taught "this is a block and nothing but a block", when we are suddenly told to get creative with it, people (including me) can have enormous difficulty thinking outside the square we have been forced into...

I agree Nooms, We were going thru Saifa in-depth the other week, and my Instructor ,bless 'im gave us the standard bunkai for the first few opening moves. When I suggested it could be something else other than what was explained, I got a blank look and "Why would the move be that? It doesn't look like that"

That's the whole point ...... I agree with Rocket here - in that a move isn't really what it is - more what it could be.

Kata shouldn't be taken at face value alone.

Try convincing other students of that some time... you'll see what I mean. It's hard to think of throws, locks, etc if you don't know how to do them. Even sweeps - since we don't really get taught them either.

Well, that's true - but we shouldn't have to think outside of the standard GKR bunkai box - If only they'd make the box bigger..

Hear, hear...

thats a real bummer that you guys are not encouraged to think outside the box.
Thats one thing I certainly dont miss about gkr. I used to always ask my rm what we were doing in some of the katas and some of the answers he gave me were ridiculous. I didnt do any bunkai at gkr either, the closest we got to that was in saifa they used to say, in this bit you're squashing the guys head, or in this bit your hitting him on the head with a tetsui grabbing his head, pulling it into a shito suki. and a few others. There was never any formal bunkai where you partner up one person attacks and the other one defends.

WE were just doing kata for looks or to score points in a tournament which is a real shame, there is nothing to learn from that, you might as well do dancing.
Since I have now learnt the goju katas from as close to the source as you can get, you can really see how the gkr katas have been altered to suit tournament. I watched a nas tournament a couple of weeks ago, I hadnt seen any gkr katas for ages and the difference between what they do and what we do is enormous.

I just thought of something, I wonder where kancho sullivan got the goju katas from. As I understand it Shihan Stacy is a shotokan blackbelt which explains the shotokan katas. Kancho sullivan only got graded to green belt in goju, then I think he went to another style and was graded to ni dan.

So if he only got to green belt in goju, how did he learn all those higher grade katas, he should have only known the five basic taikyokus and the two gekisai katas, god knows where he got the other ones from.This might explain why they are so different to what they are ment to be.

Rocket.

Well rocket it depends on what form of Goju you do.

In my style Shushin Kai-Goju Ryu, www.goju.com.au

our breakdown of Kata is as follows.

Taikyoko
Gekisai Shodan - currently converting to Gekisai Dai as per Goju Kensha
Gekisai Nidan - Currently convering to Gekisai Sho as per Goju Kensha
Sanchin
Tencho
Saifa
Unshu
Sanseru
Seienchin
Shisochin

So a person graded to green belt would know taikyoko, the 2 gekisai's, sanchin, tensho and saifa. So while not a whole lot more kata. Could explain how he knows some of the higher ones.

Hi dropbear

He did the same form of goju that I do under my current instructor Tino Ceberano. Which means if he was green belt, at the most he would have learnt saifa, Tino Hanshi is very big on not teaching kata until you are ready. It is a privlidge to learn the next kata not your right.

Its kind of like a grading, you never ask for a grading your instructor will let you know when you are ready. Kata is exactly the same you should never ask to learn the next kata, your instructor will teach you when he or she thinks that you are ready.

rocket

ahh fair enough

I have a very different teacher.

I mean I am currently only 7th kyu (stupid working distracting me) but have reached Shodan level previously. But it is common for us to learn things like Bunkai from Sepai and Shisochin. I think my instructor follows the belief that it is better to share knowledge and inspire people to work harder than keep things hidden.

Guess it all comes down to teaching philosophies.

gee thats good 7th Dan huh

cheers
Freek

bah stupid work distracting me in the middle of typing

I meant 7th Kyu of course

Well, that's true - but we shouldn't have to think outside of the standard GKR bunkai box - If only they'd make the box bigger..

Sadly GKR are only just doing bunkai. The Shihan(a little fella, always thought he was a boxer by the way he exhales through is nose)
once boosted that Roberst Sullivan had got to the lofty heights of 7thDan without knowing any bunkai.
If you get to train with the man or watch anything on youtube you will realise he wasnt lying.