I thought it was a good post and that it fit right in here


Mick

Great post to drag us back to topic

Sigh. So, as a blue belt now, I feel like I know nothing. Add in a few years to get to black, and THEN the learning really begins.
I wonder if there ever comes a point where you may feel like you actually have learnt something, and am not still a complete beginner...

Oh verily there is.

When you want to talk about karate and find others who do karate don't.

And when you talk about karate with others who do karate and they don't understand what you're talking about.

And when you talk about karate with others who do karate who are more advanced than you and some of the stuff they talk about begins to make sense.

And when you find discussions that used to interest you have become of less interest and seem to be running in circles.


Mick

I'm the one who scratches their head, and tries to understand, while most of it goes flying over the top

However, I could talk all day about karate. I think it fufills a side of me nothing else at the moment can

Yes but perhaps one day someone will say something and you will sit up and take notice because it makes some of the pieces suddenly come together


Mick

Well, you guys give me hope, cause some of the stuff we talk about makes sense, just not until a few days later. I'll be practising, and then it's like "Oh, yeah!"

I'll understand one of these years!! ;P

Then something else will come along

It's like an onion


Mick

You callin Goyle an ogre?!


Ditto. I hope.

-- K

Oh well, I guess that's why we keep going.




What about parfait? Everyone loves parfait!

OI! Maybe they are calling my an ogre. After all, I have the green skin to go with it..

Do leather belts count?

im one of them.

Only if it's part of a leather outfit...


Mick

cat woman eat your heart out

I think somewhere around intermediate

Who are our advanced ppl then?

I think it's only Mick. He is teh awesome.

dont forget Boz...

That's only 2 though. 4 people voted in Advanced. Come on, you people. Own up. You know who you are, and so does Santa.

Not me! And I'm pretty sure that if Boz voted he would not have put "advanced". Seems like the more you learn the more you realise how much else there is you don't know.

Rating yourself is very much a subjective view based on what you know at the time and your basis for comparison, whether it be the system/school you train in or your peers.

It is often said that nobody knows more about karate than a green belt (or any middle kyu grade), because at this stage a student is generally becoming competent with what they have learnt thus far but have not yet been exposed to the depth of what lies ahead.


Mick

Sorry im so late getting back on this on....im green belt...the cat woman thing was only one of the many delusions i have on a daily basis....nah it was referring to the leather belt comment. Im as green as green can get....well...hopefully not forever....oh and K sorry i missed you last week.

Trained tonight but only the second class turned up, must of been to hot for them. Felt sorry for Poor Sensei Harry. anyway yes im going to shut up now.

BadKitty - I have one word for you - Sevo.

Mick - I have a question for you. I just went and re-read this whole thread, including the off topic bits, and I have to wonder about how we decide at which level we are. In one post (and you know me well enough not to take this as a dig) you were talking about the levels being akin to different grades... which would make bb's advanced, mid-grades intermediate etc.
Perhaps bb's are advanced beginners? There is never an end to learning, cos if you stop learning you are dead, but there is obviously a beginning and I'm tired and waffling, but where does one stop being a beginner and start being of intermediate standard? Does it really have anything to do with belts or grades? Or just who we are and what we have learned?
Is it all relative? I am a beginner compared to some, but seen as advanced by others...
Maybe I am all things at once...

Yes. Sleep. Good idea.

-- K

I think you're right Nooms. It's all relative. Which is a problem if you don't like your relatives..

It's sort of like when you're just starting out you know you're a beginner because you feel like one. Then you get along to the middle kyu grades and are considered as an intermediate student, before moving along further to be an advanced student. Relative to the system you're training in. Then you reach BB and suddenly you've become a beginner again?

Perhaps it's more a case of when you reach BB you've reached a point where you ought to have at least a good grasp on the basics of the system and knowledge of the syllabus to the point you've reached. But also a bigger world suddenly seems to open up and if you go play in the big pool you find out you're only a small fish - perhaps why some people prefer to stay in their little pool where they're seen as a big fish. But also by doing this they miss out on sooo much.


Mick

So by advancing myself I am an intermediate beginner.....
Thankyou sensei... may I have another?

I would agree. As a green belt you are close to being the highest grade in standard classes, or at least closer to the right side of the dojo than the left, you've passed three big "scary" gradings, 5 all up, your learning saifa, which feels soooo advanced compared to taikyoko shodan and nidan, and stuff has begun to click. Mawashi uke isn't such a nightmare to the co-ordination, etc etc etc.

Green belts may be given a small view of what lies ahead (eg, spar a high grade at a seminar, or get to run through empi as a once off), but haven't yet discovered the heartache of trying to pass through the later grades where instead of 3-4 months between gradings, you could need 3-4 years.

As a green belt, I felt sooo confident with my abilities, and was probally a little tooo confident with portraying them (excessive contact in sparring ).
However, I think this confidence flowed over into other areas, and as a result, I graded to blue in under 3 months.

Bring on blue, and you start to see a tiny glimmer of how much work is required to continue progression, as well as just a tiny bit of the depth of inner learning that must take place. And of course as you progress higher, I guess this becomes more and more apparent....

I wonder, if a green belt in their own right is "advanced", and as you get higher, you discover just how much more stuff their is to assimilate, and assuming as well that a shodan is a beginner, then what would a 9th dan be? A beginning beginning beginner?
Does this scale ever stop going backwards, or as the case is that there is always more to learn, what would a 9th dan be?

Infinite learning loop.......
So we are all absolute beginners.
Except that... if I can learn from someone because they know more than I do, then they are more advanced than I....
So there are no absolutes in infinity.

... I'm going to bed!

Arghh!!! My head is about to explode!

I happily left that maths/physics stuff at college.

Lalor Park . Had my first sempie training class today...lots of laughs and fun....also showed me that i have no idea how to speak japanese.

I really had no idea how complex taking a class is.
Go Sensei Jooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. gotta love that guy. Not sensei but the banana dude.

Ok im off to wire my jaw shut now.
i wonder if my blue belt will be in the form of a straight jacket?

ok who named me white belt lurker????

or is that the number of post things again?

[edit]
info out of date

You reckon a lot of things, Matt... >>

Another thought on this (levels, not on how much stuff Matt reckons):

Maybe you could liken kyu grades to primary school (or whatever you call it in your own neck of the woods - ages 5/6 to about 12). At the beginning you're at a fairly low level, learning how to form letters, counting etc. Then after a few years, just before you move on to the next stage of schooling (high school or equivalent) and you're one of the big kids - school-wise if not size-wise.

Then you go up to high school (teenage years) and you're a junior person in a much bigger school (high kyu / early dan grades). You perhaps find out what you've done so far is only preparation for this stage of learning and that you don't really know that much in the scheme of things. Not that I know of many kids who are that introspective at that time of their life so perhaps it's more of a "looking back" sort of thing?

Next comes university or college (maybe middle dan grades?) and you find that you maybe add in extra stuff from what you learnt in school and have to work a lot out for yourself because you're not being spoon-fed. How much you take in is up to you, nobody pushes you to learn and you can either do just enough to scrape through or you can do more (which will make life easier later on).

Then (following the education thread, and yes I know that you choose the target audience for when you graduate to become a teacher when you apply for entry to uni) depending what you've studied you may only ever be able to teach young children, or you may develop students in their teenage years. Or you may go on to further study and eventually become a university level teacher, having reached a mastery of sorts and being involved in the start of the last stages of teaching the masters of the future.

Not quite accurate but still...


Mick

I like it!

---

Like school, some students still can't read or spell when they are in high school yet they still continue through the grades.

Unlike school, the good-students tend to be the best fighters.

Like school, you have to wear a uniform.

Unlike school, you can't be sure your teacher is qualified to teach the subject.

Although.. Government schools require teachers to have some form of teaching qualification, either a degree or diploma in education. Though it doesn't mean they're any good at what they teach - sometimes you find teachers teaching a subject where their only knowledge of the subject is what they themselves learnt at school. Usually this comes about as a result of not having anyone else available or willing to teach it.

Private schools aren't bound by that employment restriction, more a matter of policy than law I think. Private schools also tend to have more money and attract or poach the best teachers they can get, sometimes employing someone who has some level of expertise in the area they're teaching irrespective of whether they have teaching qualifications. After all, with the cost of sending a child to a private school, people expect the school to provide the best tuition possible.

They also tend to have more freedom in sacking poor teachers. Government employment is fairly well-known to be secure employment in that people tend not to be fired for incompetence.

People also tend to not question the qualifications of school teachers - they rely on the school administration to do that. This is not usually a problem since all schools, even home schooling, have to comply with at least a minimum standard of education.

On the other hand anyone can walk into a martial arts shop and buy a uniform etc. Then, suitably equipped with their book "Martial Arts Mastery in 10 days", they can set themself up in their own dojo. Of course that's an extreme example. But while everyone expects schools to teach "the three Rs", few really know what to expect from a martial arts instructor and so people will embrace anything they're taught as genuine and will even tolerate abuse...


Mick

To my students I would say that see me as advanced. To people the same grade as me I would think they see me as adequate. My teacher in Japan probably still see's me as an advanced beginner

I am no longer one of the new kindy kids - apparently I ask way too many "why?" questions now! Which puts me at least half way through kindy.

Asking "why?" is an integral part of learning. Of course you don't necessarily have to ask out loud, the "why?" could be a thought leading to you working something out on your own. Someone else might ask something that hasn't occurred to you and you pick up the answer that way. Though I would venture that if you don't ask "why?" either consciously or unconsciously then you're just absorbing stuff and not processing it, so you could spit it back up when asked but not be able to apply it or explain it further...


Mick

I don't always ask why - mostly cos I don't always get the chance! But it has made me realise that it's damned hard to train as a white belt once you aren't one any more, i.e.: once you know how to ask the questions, it's hard to just "do".

Pick up 3rd Kyu. WOOHOOO!!!! In answer to the question I would put myself in the bracket of educated beginner.

Congratulations DD.

Hey Guys, im a 1st Kyu in GKR, soon to have my Shodan-Ho, what level are you guys?

Toni x x x

I'm Si, And I'm a beginner in a Wado Ryu club 'cause GKR isn't my thing

I tend to look at the kyu grades as like an apprenticeship. When you get your blackbelt you are a tradesman but you must practice your skills for decades to become a master craftsman.

So, at first kyu - I don't see myself as a beginner, especially when I watch people struggle with techniques that I now find quite comfortable. Also many things are starting to fall into place for me now. But I still have soooo much to learn.

I still feel like a white belt, though, when I train with the black belts even though I will be one soon. Weird eh?

So, I guess I am an intermediate who likes to approach every training session as a white belt - like I don't know anything with any absolute certainty!

Even if i'm a brown red single i still struggle with everything and anything to do with karate, my head is as wide as a bus with everything that i have to remember.

I consider myself a beginner because i could never get any of them to work for me. I had some success with Hapkido and Tae Kwan Do but when I started working full time it soon died away. My ultimate aim is to find a martial arts club I like enough to continue training. I dont really care if I become a black belt anymore, I just want to train consistantly at one dojo.

Go-Kan-Ryu (1995-1997)
Moo Hak Kwan Hapkido (1996-2003)
Jido Kwan Tae Kwan Do (2000-2003)
Kin Bushi Ryu (a few months)
Goju (a few months)
Boxing (a few months)

p.s. If anyone knows of any karate, ju jitsu or judo clubs near Trott Park in South Australia please let me know, cheers. <--- broken record sorry im repeating myself alot

Man we seem to have lived parallell lives. 5 years GKR, 5 years TKD, played with boxing a while and trained with some damn fine real karate instructors in the interim.

Hope you find what you are looking for. If you do please let me know

GKR - THATS A BIT EMBARASSING
GOJU -THATS GOOD