I just wondered... I also considered the results may be biased since many people probably have never learnt a kata except by following a count.


Mick

That was a hard decision...

I would have answered straight out "By the count" a year or more ago. I've been dancing since I was two and have the learning to the count thing down pat.

But over the last 18 months I've been learning forms more free flowing, where the emphasis on timing isn't set or structured.
To be taught the forms by the count will be limiting them to some one elses point of view.

In a karate sense though I'd have to say i still prefer learning kata by the count. There is little room for free flowing or individual timing. The timing needs to be learnt as you learn the kata other wise it just takes longer to learn it over all.

Cant stand by the count....
I really cant see the merits of it other than to check out a snapshot of the kata for some reason. I guess it comes in handy for reference....
"If you look at the sixth move you will see...."

are we learning the kata by numbers or practising it that way?

cos i dont like to practise it by the numbers just learn it that way.

Learning is easier by the count, but not practicing. We keep doing it by the count then get told to interpret the timing our own way. Bit hard when thats all you do.

The way to learn and practise a kata is firstly to learn the techniques within the kata. Some learn the applications and then the kata.. I've taught kata that way to advanced students who really enjoyed it.

For kata practise it is best IME to train step by step and then sequence by sequence. Here in lies the rub. There is an Okinawan saying that you can tell the ability of the karateka by their performance of kata.

Most take that to mean how good they look doing the kata but in essence, the main criteria is demonstrating that you know the purpose and application of the movements by how you sequence and link the kata together.

Food for thought when you are told yo come up with your own timing. Soundslike an exercise routine with no clear meaning, yes?

Boz

IMO learning step-by-step is not quite the same as learning to a count. And having a group of students move to approximately the same timing is of most benefit to the student who is still learning the pattern and so is basically following the others when otherwise they may get lost and confused if everyone is slightly out of sync.
On the other hand, it is perhaps easier for a student who knows the pattern to pause between sequences and wait while the learner completes the sequence at a slightly slower pace.
This could allow each student to practice each sequence as a discrete unit at the level at which they want to work on it without overtly disrupting the flow of the group.


Mick

My own favoured way of learning a kata is to break it down in to very small chunks.

Ie: Memorise the first 5 or 6 moves, then a bit of bunkai. Depending on the circumstances then either move onto the next chunk, or do some partner work based on the first chunk.

Yup me too.
Get one bit sussed then move on.
I hate it when they just go thru the whole kata and expect you to pick it up

The count helps me to break it down and remember it, at least at the beginning. Once I know the pattern I prefer to let it flow. Just Yesterday we went trough the katas and the higher we went the slower it got as sensei tried to correct everyone along the way. Once we got to Seiunchin ( I just nailed the pattern a couple of weeks ago or so) we stopped so often and I had so much time to think about the next move that I stuffed it up completely when the count continued.

Cheers
CC

Great example of learning Kata.

At senior class I am just beginning to learn Empi. Our RM takes us through it slowly, and at the end starts telling us the technicalities of the techniques - in no particular order, but as he thinks of them, for 5 minutes and then says - 'OK - Medium Pace'

AAAARRRGGGHHH thinks I - I don't know it at slow yet. So bravely I put my hand up and suggest that for me, and the other 5 people beginning to learn it, it might be better breaking it into small routines to learn.

After a tut and long look at the clock the RM says OK so we split from the higher grades and the RM starts again and says..

OK - SLOW PACE. 1....2....3...and so on.

So much for listening to learning styles - could have torn my hair out!!

I think perhaps I should've added another option or two to the poll...

The good thing about a forum is that it lets you see what you thought about stuff at a certain point in time. The bad? thing is that you see it and think "OMG did I really say that?"


Mick

Oh yes...I dread the resurrected threads...

Perhaps it would be worse to look back on something a couple of years after you wrote it and still agree with it?

I wrote a lot of stuff which now seems terribly

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I wrote a lot of stuff which now seems terribly inane.


Mick

But the real question is, do you still write a lot of stuff that is inane?

Of course not! Something happens to the writing so that what you write now makes perfect sense but what you wrote a year or so ago somehow gets changed into utter rubbish.


Mick

Its the forum faires. They get a case of verbal diahorea and take it out on ppls posts.

If its not cleaned up then trolls start to breed.

Fact.

OK I've changed my mind. After using a count for the past couple of months in a slightly different way from what I was accustomed I have now decided that a count is quite useful.

Sometimes the step-by-step count may be just for a head turn or moving to a preparation position with another count for the next movement, breaking down the moves within the kata. Other times I will use a sequence-by-sequence count and work that aspect. It also seems to help take the roboticalness out of a kata..


Mick

Like Rancer and deano , I like to learn a new Kata in small chunks of 6 moves try and get the techniques right before moving onto the next 6 moves and so on.

Once I get the whole sequence sorted out , I really try to fine tune the techniques to what is considered grading standard.

I thought Safia was hard until starting to learn Bassai - di over the last two weeks, which I,m finding difficult at the moment. I have the first 9 moves sorted out.
I also find that if I think about too many moves it too hard. The "hand wavy thing " is confusing.

We did a whole class on kata last night and spend alot of time on the first and second kata. It was a very tiring but good class and if I got a dollar for everytime the sensei said " watch your bobbing up and down " to the class doing second kata, I could retire today a rich man.

It takes me a while to eventually get it right and that means longer before I grade but like my sensei says, " it's best to get rid of bad habits or incorrect techniques earlier and being picked up on them as a senior grade".

Being what I consider still a junior grade, I prefer to do kata to the count and that may change as I progress and learn to relax and get more confident with my kata.

I bought the GKR videos last week to help me fine tune my grading kata , Safia and the Bassai video to get a headstart for my next few gradings.

Great topic with some interesting ways of learning kata.