Geez, you get riled up way to easily...

riled no worried yes you are getting allies where will i go if they keep joining you, and deano has been very quite, so i'm not getting much help from that quarter.

Just keeping my head down so no-one gets a clear shot fang

Naw, Deano's actually a double agent.

It depends on where you train and who you train with I think. The first half-step you mention I have always done as a full step. The second, when I learnt Bassai Dai it *was* a full step, then was changed to a half-step. Now it's back to a full step again.

As far as the changes to Bassai Dai go, there is only one change from how I first learnt it (that's the step across with the reinforced kake uke) but about 4 changes to how it has been done here in the last few years.


Mick

it's not going to work brodius deano and i are solid :thumbgrin:, and we are collecting some of the rocks to throw back, only problem is we are usually to drunk to figer out what direction to throw then in . Bassai Dia i think was a better kata with the half step, it just seemed to be a more powerful block that way, you could step up really quickly and really let the block go.( might just be i have an old body and it really hates the full step block but).

Yeah, I kinda feel like I'm stepping to far forward towards the opponent before I strike with the knife block. The shorter step just felt... better, I guess.

wow cool i'm going to print and frame brodius's reply, i finally said something that isn't completely stupid and of no relevence about kata, and the best bit brodius sort of agrees with me :thumbgrin:. i'm on a roll lets see how long it takes me to stuff it up, but untill then i'm on a high

Yeo, I'm here to please. Just make sure to send the cash we agreed on.

Seriously though, I still think that there was no real point to changing that half step back to a full step, when it was originally a full step before both changes. The half step felt better anyway. But I'm not a sensei, and don't want to be, so can't really have a say in the changes anyway.

I looked at a couple of vids I have of shotokan practitioners performing bassai dai, one did a full step at the end there, and the other did about a 3/4 step. Mind you the patterns were slightly different and the function of the step may be no more than to return you to the place you started.

Instructors have no say in changes either, any more than they do in bunkai. I have even in the past asked the function of a particular sequence as it didn't seem to fit my perceptions ( ) of how it should be done only to receive a shrug.


Mick

A shrug is better than what i used to get, i get a look of complete bewilderment, and then a look that says what u asking for u dont even do Karate How dare you ask Questions why i ask really i already know the answers :thumbwink:
Nigel

I find that rather funny, in a way. I was reading GF's Karate-Do Kyohan last night - I'll go dig out a passage he wrote which seems relevant here.


Mick

I'm intrigued....

I started a new topic "Studying kata" and put the whats'name I was talking about there.


Mick

wanna link to that thread Mick, since this one keeps getting bumped ??

I have a strong interest in saifa, and have no idea y?

Can't you do it? This thread is from 2003 Or perhaps people could just search for "Studying kata". I spose I could have just dug out the topic to link with less effort than typing this.. oh well too late now

I rather like Naifanchi shodan and Bassai Dai. Oops different syllabus


Mick

After all that I went and found it:

http://www.gkr.net.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=212


Mick

i like kata 2 better than one because i have done it heaps off times

Favourite kata to do: Saifa. Favourite kata to watch: tie between Empi and I think it's one of the black belt kata Kararunfura(sp?). I know it when I see it but I can never remember the name:)

Kururunfa....
one of my faves, and one that ive just learnt recently...

if thats the one is has a lot of cat stance in it...

btw HI

Hello:). I think that's the one. It's got this funny little wave in it, and there's a part where they drop down onto your heels.... looks pretty:)

yep

Kunkusho (sp?) is very cool to watch, especially with those jumps.

Mitten - Roseanne got some pics of Sensei Ben doing it at the NAS, and he looks awesome flying through the air....

I'm tied between bassai dai and seiunchin as my favourite to do. Bassai dai "feels" stronger and better, but this is probally just because I've done it for heaps longer.
I like seiunchin due to the sumo, and it's "foccusy" feel.

That basically sums up my thoughts on those two kata as well.

Hmm... Did some empi last night. Could vaguely remember it from the old days ago in the dark ages, but picked it up again very quickly.

With the exception of the bastard jump (thankfully I will not need empi to grade for a looooong time), I found it reasonably easy to pick up.

As GKR uses a combination of go ju and shotokan katas, do people find ones of certain styles easier to learn than than ones traditionally accredited to another style?

For example, Bassai Dai and Empi are very different from saifa and seiunchin, yet I would say I can learn the Bassai dai/empi type kata's more easily than I can remember learning saifa, and recently starting the struggle with seiunchin.

I've possible got my linerage wrong here, so correct away, but that's what I've been thinking. Other possibility is of course that seiunchin is above my grade kata, and in several classes I attend, I am the highest belt, which makes trying to learn the finer points of the kata rather difficult.
The class I went to last night had several brown belts, so thus my group did the empi work.

Perhaps certain people/body types are more succeptable to learning certain kata's faster than others?

What do you guys think?

I'd have to agree with I think it was Boz saying the mixing of two styles which have such vastly different approaches to kata and technique is counterproductive and confusing.

Best example I can come up with without thinking (its been a long easter) - how often do you do shika dachi instead of kiba dachi in Bassai? If you'd never learnt shika dachi then possibly you wouldnt have that problem.

It is interesting to look at Bassai Dai in modern Shotokan clubs. Heck, it's interesting to look at how kiba dachi (horse stance) is done in modern clubs...


Mick

how is Kiba dachi done classically Mick?
I think there is less emphasis on the knees being pushed out to align with the ankles - but are there any other differences?

I've seen kiba dachi done by a local shotokan club - looks more like elephant riding stance as i'm pretty sure horses aren't that big!

Shotokan's kiba dachi replaced Naifanchi (Naihanchi) dachi in the Tekki kata and it has also replaced Shiko dachi in other kata. Naifanchi dachi is a little wider than shoulder width and the toes can point straight ahead or pidgeon-toed with the knees bent straight ahead. From naifanch dachi, if one twists to the left or the right, one is in a natural fighting stance and the applications of the kata can be seen.

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Slammy & W16

I've dug up the link, there was a thread on kiba dachi a while back with some pictures.

I have heard (read) that one reason for the change from shiko dachi to kiba dachi was that with shiko dachi (sumo) students tend to get higher in stance when their legs get tired but with kiba dachi (horse) they tend to get lower. Dunno if it's true or not. Any volunteers to stand there for a few hours and test that theory?


Mick

What? Willingly stay in those stances for long periods of time? If you send a cheque, I will. =P

EMPI!

im not doing anything tonight. i'll stay in sumo and horse for an hour each (no kidding!!) and test your theory. its one for the diary, anyway...

catch you tomorrow. if my legs are working. anyone care to witness? (mark? )

Kiba dachi follows more closely the principle foundations of "horse stance" from chinese systems and yes it in theory is more powerful, stable and practical.

From memory (someone please check the following):

Shuri Te - more closely utilise kiba dachi

Naha Te - more closely utilse shiko dachi

JC

Hi all, I'm new here, although many of you know me already. This groups certainly seems to be composed of the usual suspects anyway.

JC, I don't think the above is correct to be honest, although I can by no means claim to be an authority on the many different Shuri-te & Naha-te systems. However, from what I've seen of the Shuri-te systems, both naihanchi-dachi and shiko-dachi are used. The wide kiba-dachi is not used. Naihanchi-dachi is a horse stance but is quite small, I don't think I've ever seen a deep horse stance in one of the older Okinawan kata. If you want to go deep then that's the time to use shiko-dachi.

Mike

Hi Mike

Yes, I don't think you'd actually find kiba dachi outside of Shotokan schools, with the possible exception of Wado clubs.


Mick

ps Yep the usual suspects... but this forum is better cos I get to have a cuppa after each post

Hi Mike, nice to see you here


Kata, I have favourites....if I have to choose it would probably be seiunchin, for the tempo...

..the kata which interests me most is taigyoku nidan - I have never seen this done well. What I find most intriguing is that higher grades tend to avoid doing it, when instructing they choose not to demonstrate.

I find this the hardest kata to turn into something in the first instance which is not a shambles and then in the second instance to something of meaning. I like to practice it as often as I can, just because I am so poor at it if for no other reason.

I did try to add a little to it by training (gently) with a kick sheild....my choice of partner was perhaps not the best...

...my son, who was 7 at the time - it was only a gently kick honest - he was launched off his feet and landed in a heap on his backside He was OK, but somwhat reluctant to hold the sheild after that

Boy, did he lay into me with sparring later on!

Atb

David

That could be because the GKR Taikyoku Nidan is an abomination of a kata invented by someone with seemingly no understanding of what kata is for and views it only as a performance thing, thereby modifying a usable kata into something which has no practical purpose.


Mick

...you don't like it then Mick?

Atb

David

Like it? Ha!

Taikyoku Shodan is in my syllabus but I've only used it once. I have it as an introduction to kata but you find the same elements in Pinan Nidan. I only used it because it was a kata which, when we had guests, everyone knew so it was a suitable vehicle for demonstrating some basic principles.


Mick

Although I'm just beginning to learn it, I reckon Saifa is my favourite kata. There's just something about the explosiveness of some of the moves that captures me. I believe it is somewhat less 'rigid' and 'structured' than 1st/2nd kata, and is more open to individual interpretation.


Kate

Saifa can really flow if you can do it well ( It`s known as "Rolling Wave" in some quarters )

"Rolling wave" is wrong. Saifa　砕破　(I think that's the right kanji) more correctly means "tear and destroy".

It is much underestimated because it is short and relatively easy to learn, but it is truly a kata rich in application.


Mick

Mick, how does GKR saifa compare?

Atb

David

Compare to what? The GKR Saifa is similar to other versions. The most noticeable difference is perhaps the straight-line enbusen (pattern) where the opening sequences are performed straight up the middle instead of to 45º angles as are all the other versions I have seen. Why is it different? I have no idea. It would seem to serve no purpose except to mask some of the application, although once application is known then this difference does not matter.


Mick

Many Apologies Mick, I believe "rolling wave" is meant to be an alternative translation.

I think perhaps because it sounds more mystical?

Now it seems the characters "sai" (smash, break, crush) and "fa/ha" (rend, rip, destroy) are most commonly used. Saifa is an old kata, with the time of its creation unknown. It is one of several kata Kanryo Higaonna learned in the Fuzhou district in China which have been handed down through Chojun Miyagi and Goju Ryu.

On the name, I think it probable that Higaonna would have been told the meaning but since such things were rarely written the kanji may have been selected at a later date. Even so, it is perhaps equally probable that Miyagi may have offered the meaning "rolling wave" when following Itosu's lead in getting karate taught widely, as it definitely sounds less violent. Of course this is all simply conjecture.


Mick

"Smash and tear" certainly seems to fit the essence and the feel of the kata more than "rolling wave".

Maybe "rolling wave" is what it was called when someone did it badly and kept bobbing up and down between sections?