Ok, so which is everyone's favourite kata? This poll is for if your favourite kata is between 1st kata and empi, cos there are only 10 answers allowed in the poll. If your favourite kata is one of the BB kata, there is another poll for that.


Mick



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i would have to say empi is my favourite so far (including those in the other poll - those that i know already anyway)

i actually like all katas from saifa onwards. 1st and 2nd just get to me...

my fave part of the katas is learning the bunkai.
i HATE learning a kata without learning the bunkai at the same time. i find it to be a bunch of pointless moves otherwise.

just my opinion

I voted for Bassai Dai.

I really like this kata.
It's also the highest kata I know (at least part of it anyway).
It's got some really good applications to it.
My Sensei enjoys telling us about the different things that we're doing in kata because he likes the look on our faces when we cringe...

I voted for bassai dai. it is tha koolest kata. It is also the highest i know.

I dont have a single favourite Kata.

Of the lower kata I think First is the best but only when it is done well.
Mainly because of it's simplicty but for it to look good it still has to be technicely correct.

Of the higher katers Sepi because the bunkai is realy cool.

D.B.

Hey Dave,

Please explain as much as possible of the Bunkai to Sepai!

It is a goal fo mine this year to learn more about Bunkai.

:thumbwink: CraigL

Hi CraigL

The bunki of any kata is hard to explain in writing.
But I will try for a couple of the moves anyway.

After the first move in the kata your right hand is out shoulder height when you step up into the next move you are grabbing the top of someone's wrist with the right hand and the bottom of the wrist with the left, on the next move using the wrist you to pull the person in twisting the arm and then raming it back into the person in an effort to dislocate there shoulder.

On about the eleventh move after the 180 degree turn you have done a gedan bari this is followed by uchi uke
and then a palm heal block. At that point someone grabs your wrist, you then execute a 135 deg turn to the right, the left arm comes on the inside of the right and roles over it. From here the persons arm is in a position for you to snap it.
(This one was shown to be by Senise Grant)

A little bit further on in the kata you have done an oliver uke over to your left. From there you turn 180 deg and drop into sumo stance and you hands come across you chest.

What you are doing here is someone has tried to kick you, you have caught the kick across you chest and then using your right leg you are sweeping there supporting leg out from under them and breaking the leg you have caught at the same time.

I have seen and heard of the bunki of a some kata's differ from sensie to sensie and from regon to regon.

This happens with kata so why not the bunki?

I have tried to describe what is leading up to each bunki move as I dont know how well you know the kata.

(Please excuse any spelling of grammer mistakes)

I hope this helps Craig.

D.B.

I'm not telling which I voted for - I just wanted to see my new avatar on a post.

Aaargh! Did you have to post a picture of yourself? LOL


Mick

im not saying which kata i voted for but i just cant wait to start learning the higher grade katas...
then i can vote on the other poll too.

i know all these katas but my instructor wont teach me the next one...

i guess he needs to keep a little mystery in what's to come...

Hi Caleb

Don't be in too much of a rush to learn more kata

There is much much more to a kata than just learning the pattern, techniques and timing. Though I would have to say that I doubt you will be able to learn much of that aspect without some research of your own, or finding someone who can teach you. I have seen many people who can perform a kata brilliantly, yet have no idea that the kata is anything more than performance art.

Think, ask questions etc. You might make yourself a pain in the eyes of your instructor but it's worth it if you find the knowledge.


Mick

tensho

Big
btw Mick.. its not on your poll

David,

IMO CraigL knows this kata pretty well. I judged a recent performance of this kata (as you know Craig, this was a while ago) and I gave him a representive score (and it was a relatively high score).

As for the bunkai.. is this the official GKR view or your own personal view?

Big

IMO there is more than one application for each sequence, based on the thought that instead of showing me a number of responses for one attack, show me one response that will cater for a number of attacks. B)

The one that immediately springs to mind on this principle is the opening sequence to kanku dai but anyway...



I would think the wrist grab comes prior to the uchi uke as this action allows you to loosen the grip and regrab. A minor detail though.



Here is another potential variation to think about

An attacker swings a club of some sort (stick, bat, someone's arm they have ripped off, whatever ) in a horizontal arc so you move inside the arc of the swing and intercept it near the handle, keep their hands on the weapon and hook a leg.


Mick

hey guys - this is the noobs kata thread.
shift it to the other one

maybe we could open a discussion on a lower graded kata...

perhaps Bassai dai.?
this kata has great bunkai and applications.

for example
the opening sequence can be used for several different defensive maneuvers...

what are everyones thoughts on what YOU would use them for???

*let's just say the first 3 moves for a start...*

Victorias fav Kata is Saifa and Sams is Seiunchin,they know Kata up to and including empi,does anyone know the Bunkai to empi,we are having a lot of trouble finding someone who knows.
Big can you help us
Nigel

Sorry to say Nigel, but you will have a lot of trouble finding someone who knows. My own bunkai knowledge is a hotch-potch of bits I have learned here and there, and some I have developed on my own.

My own personal opinion is that the scraps of bunkai shown in the gkr mag are just scraps and not realistic or practical. But they do give you a starting point for thinking about applications.


Mick

Well, I voted for Saifa. That became my favourite kata since the moment I learnt it, even up against katas like Sepai and Sanseru. But, I still think the praying mantis stance at the end of Sanseru is downright awesome.



A question to David, though, about what he said earlier.

I was taught that the beginning of Sepai had you drawing a sword from a sheath, and that the pulling in and back out motion was actually you forcing the sword into your opponent. How can the two Bunkai be so different?

bunkai is and should always remain to be YOUR interpretation of the movements

how you feel more confident and comfortable. and also what would be easiest, most instinctive and natural to YOU.

there is no point knowing a heap of defence skills if you cant do them instinctively.

interpret the katas in your own ways
experiment with the moves to find different methods of using them

two people could very easily come up with 2 or 3 VERY different scenarios

I used to train with a sword-orientated martial art, so that's probably why I felt more in tune with Sepai, with the sword thrust bunkai.

But with most of the bunkai in the kata for Go Kan Ryu, I'm always disagreeing with my senseis, because I can always see a better way for that move to be used, and not how it is suggested to be used.

Hi Brodius,

Karate suceeded Te which was a Civil Self-Defense Art. Applications have nothing to do with the thrusting of swords into opponents. Those sorts of things are mere romantic nonsense, take no notice of them.

The applications of kata are sensible and in general quite simple. They deal with being seized or struck and operate to a set of sound principles.

Susan, modern kata has been revised with a view to making them more appropriate for all members of the community. Techniques were altered to appear as 'blocks' and some thinge removed and others added. Without knowing the earlier versions and their purpose, it is all guess work and has led to the ridiculous 'bunkai' promoted by the unknowing.

I suppose there is a view that an bunkai is better than none but I don't agree. The self-defense applications put forward make karate look like a 2nd class art and could get someone badly injured if they attempt to use ineffective responses in a physical confrontation.

The old adage is quite right, seek and ye shall find, but seek teachers that know the art.. else its better to enjoy the physical educational side of karate and accept the modernart is more of an enjoyable sport. All IMO.

regards,
Boz

Well - Ive made my opinions about kata applications well know. ie: its a great way to practice your martial art and test skills, but useless for self defence. I'm intrigued by this interpretation concept, Susan. I've always tried to personalise my kata to reflect my idea of how it should be done - not changing the techniques, but the timing. I find this way I get more "into it" and focus more on the techniques as a whole. Surely this cannot be a bad thing?

Is this what you meant?

ok so you each can make your owne bunkai up in kata, why then do a set kata at all. it was set out as a defensive/attacking sequence by whoever made the certain kata up. to deal with the set attack he or she was defending against. it is not and never shall be up to a person regardless of who they are up to interpretation , it is a set of defensive or attacking moves thought up but a person, and to say or decide you know better than what they where setting out is wrong and in total disrespect of this person. i know some of you will say different styles proform the same kata's with slightly different moves,i say if the top dogs want to change kata's it is wrong, go think up your owne then you can do what you want in the kata, or are you missing that talent. this is why i think is it really worth learning kata when it WILL be changed at the whim of someone.ok tell me where to stand to be stoned to death

Fang, just move a little to the right so people can get a clearer shot

There is a thing called oyo henka bunkai, which is your own interpretation of the application within kata. There is also (with many clubs) a set bunkai.

Bear in mind that the shotokan-based kata used in GKR are a little different from 'standard' shotokan, which itself has changed the kata from the original forms.

Deano,
Interesting that you say it's useless for self defence, I'd suggest you find someone who can teach you some of the SD applications within the kata - and I don't mean someone who's copied what's in the shinybum magazine. Although it'd probably work great if someone attacked you from a distance with a front kick. But then there are sparring applications in kata as well... taigyoku shodan springs to mind with some elementary but quite effective defenses and counters.

Of course I had to take the long road to find some... reinvent the wheel, then get directed to look at pinan nidan, which led me to see some of the same applications in taigyoku shodan. Which BTW were there all the time and could have saved me a lot of time and effort had I had someone who already knew it to show me.


Mick

lol missed, missed, missed, oh sionnagh you said move right not left, nah i think left is far better there is a bloody big tree to hide behind over here . oh so there is room for a person to interpret a kata this is something i never knew of, i guess all there is to do now is to say sorry to those i hade a go at, so here goes SORRY guys and gals. i still think kata's should stay as the way they where thought up by the person that made them, but that's just me i guess.oh sionnagh thanks for the heads up on this issue :thumbwink: , i love this tree hope the stones,rocks,bricks don't hurt it to much

Hey fang no apologies at all required. This is what this place is about - to compare and contrast ideas in a civilised discussion. I dont agree with a lot of stuff, but Ive had to reassess WHY I dont agree in light of some arguments put forward. Your point of "disrespectful" to the makers of the kata springs to mind. My RM had a chat with us about this recently. The point he made was if you can ever see Kancho and Shihan do first kata you'd think there were doing different katas - Shihan with his shotokan experience and Kancho more goju oriented, both put their personal styles into it. I know I like to take the first few moves of Bassai Dai slower than most......sort of "goju-fy" the kata a bit. If GKR is a blend of styles surely this cannot be against the spirit of the club?

I dont think anyone is advocating actually changing the moves - that seems to happen on its own anyway

oh and mick - "shinybum"

Fang, I wasn't trying to correct you so much as to provide a different point of view.

Some people hold the opinion that kata should be fixed and unchanging, not so much I think because to change it would be wrong exactly but more so that the original purpose and intent is not lost.

Having said that, I understand that originally students would be taught only a few kata but those kata would be tailored to suit the individual student. Not so much perhaps in way of changing movements, but that the kata taught would be one that suited the student in terms of their size, strength, flexibility etc.

There are quite a number of movements which respond to different attacks using the same basic outline of moves - here we have crossover into multiple applications for any one kata sequence. What this leads me to suspect is that students who may have been taught the same kata may have been taught different applications depending on their physical capability. eg where a taller person might execute a lock by rotating a limb and applying downward pressure, a shorter student might be taught a variant which involves rotating the limb and lifting. Or maybe they might be taught both, I don't know.

A saying I like is that you don't know anything until you know enough to realise how much you don't know and how much you have yet to learn.


Mick-who-is-standing-before-a-chasm-of-ignorance

this forum might even make me like kata soon, i know one thing i'm sure going to think abit more about them while i'm doing the wretched things(had a better word for them but thought better of it )

i hate forgetting things, but i should be use to it by now.sionnagh hey man the view point was taken and i think was very valid like i said thankyou for the heads up on it, and i found your next post just as interesting and imformative :thumbwink: . and if i ever need correcting you or anyone else's input is not only taken but desired.as my dear old mum use to say if need be stand corrected and always try to learn by your mistakes. so can i leave the protetion of my tree yet?

Sionnagh I agree that the kata are based on actual attack situations,and yes, we can learn a lot about self defence applications from that. My point is however that you cannot teach self defence by simply teaching kata. To try and do it would be to teach defence against one specific attack only.

Yes, I can see the benefits, but that really isnt what kata is about. To me its about showcasing your skills. Can you land in a good back leaning stance after doing a side kick and chewing gum at the same time? Kata to me is a big combination incorporating all I should know at my specific level.

Any room behind that tree fang??

deano i'v been here a while now but it's a big tree so yep come on over just before you come can you pick me up a bottle of bourbon, 2 bottles of diet coke, a bag of ice,a glass, and something to eat, man i'm no boy scout i came here really unprepared for the stay. BACK LEANING STANCE plse dont mention that stance when you get here i hate the stance, i really struggle to get it right, i love empi but the jump at the end into that stance, well all i can say about it is it sucks. on the up side we seem to have the same thoughts on kata :thumbgrin:

Pffft, that tree won't save you. *Throws some napalm its way. Tree burn down*

Anyway, the back leaning stance is one of the best stances, not including Neko Washi Dachi. It's really easy to get down low, and when you turn your hips to the front as they're supposed to be, it makes it easier to drop down even more.

And that Throw-over-your-shoulder-plus-jump is so easy too. Even landing back into the back leaning stance afterwards. Maybe I'm just talented. B)

youngsters, bloody upstarts, my poor old tired body cann't keep up, and now you want to fry it behind my tree think green dude and if that fails think deano is here to. got it knew he would come in usefull i'll use deano as my fire protection

Ah, but it's not a case of defence against one specific attack. The same sequence in a kata can provide multiple defences against a specific attack, and also provide defences against different attacks. For example, the opening moves to saifa could be applied to wrist grabs from different directions as well as a punch attack.

I have a number of applications for quite a number of kata sequences. Some I have been taught or led, some I have researched and developed. Most of those I label as "potential applications", some I have been able to verify or have validated as viable defenses. At the same time I examine possible applications and reject any that are too complex - KISS principle. Some of the rejects though I keep for teaching purposes - use them to get people thinking outside the box.


Mick

What's the KISS principle?

i thought up what it could mean, but i'm not sure it applys here and i sure cann't post my meaning B)

brodius i'v spoken to my mate in the tree hugging frat, and he assures me napalm is totally illegal in australia, so leave my tree alone youngster or i'll have to cry, you wouldn't want to see a old man cry would you?, and think of poor deano toast as he would be, with me under him using him as my fire blanket, sorry deano but brave i aint

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

lol you talking about me again matt

Well he's not talking about me. Well, he better not be. I'll have to open a can of whoopass. Heh

Napalm may or may not be illegal here in Australia, but it doesn't mean I can't smuggle it in.

ok young fella time for the big guns, i'm getting on to another mate in customs, leave my tree alone the things i post i'm going to keep needing it :thumbgrin: , by the way i'm out of bourbon, coke, ice and food, deano eat's like a horse and drnks like a fish, can someone bring in fresh supplys please, we cann't leave the protection yet

lol - I'm beginning to think this thread should be split.

Its been a couple of months since the first post, wondering if anyones changed their mind about their fave kata, and if so why?

Well, I did say Saifa first. but now that I think of it, I'm liking Bassai Dai more and more. True, I did it perfectly in my 3rd Kyu grading, according to the RM, but I like it because of all the little moves that make the kata that much more whole.

Like the little head turns, the breathing, and the angles of the stances. Near the end of that kata can be murder with those back leaning stances.

this a kata tread ooooops you know what i think of them , but just to keep boz happy B) i'll say empi it is still one of my favorites, i just hope you don't have to do it well to vote for it or even ok really,because that jump at the end i land once out of 10 attempts . one thing i guess the other students get a laugh out of my febble attemps at it, oh i got the back leaning stances reasonable after thinking this was never going to happen, so there is hope for the jump yet :thumbwink:

What was the topic again? Oh, right.

Which kata I practice more depends on which kata I'm working on at the time. I like all of them.


Mick

Oh and I believe that if you add sugar to petrol it turns into a kind of gel?

But wouldn't that kind of 'chemistry' ruin the engine that that sugary concoction goes into?

Well it wouldn't be good for the engine, true. But it could be a cheap alternative to napalm for those who are aiming at anybody hiding behind that tree.


Mick

Heh, everyone is getting on my side now. The tree will soon be no more.

And a question about Bassai Dai. Why did they change the last part where you normally took a half step, then another with a kiai... To a full step and another full step with a kiai? Why did it have to be changed in that slightest way. I can't see how it makes the kata any more complete.

this isn't funny guys i'm old and cann't run, now you want to blow up my tree useing home made brews, be sure it doesn't blow up in you face . and really is it me or the tree, because i'd hate to be responsible for a defenceless tree getting blown of it's peaceful landscape.nope i say the tree has to go cause i aint shifting you guys are high belts so maybe you can throw straight, and i'm to old and slow to evade for long, show some mercy be nice little martial artists, and if this plea isn't working, how about respect your bloody elders youngsters grrrrrrrrrrrr.