Since its agreed kata is the repository of karates self defence techniques, and a detailed study of the bunkai is part of good defence training......
Would it not therefore be beneficial to learn as many kata as possible in order to absorb more self defence techniques and add to our repertoire??

We wouldnt want to be caught short only knowing the applications of one or two kata would we?

Oh how cruel to tease people in such a fashion!


Mick

hehe

Trouble with bunkai (and many other things) as I see it is that people learn by rote and teach by rote. This doesn't allow for deviation or questioning. "I can't make it work" translates to "must be doing it wrong" or worse, "the partner is attacking wrong". How can someone attack wrong? Yes I know they can attack in an unrealistic manner, but you can't ask a real life attacker to please not attack you that way because you haven't learnt that one yet, or that they're doing it wrong. "Here, let me show you a better way..."

Which is better? Practicing individual responses to individual attacks so that you have a huge repertoir of a different defence for every conceivable attack, or a smallish repertoir of catch-many defences which don't require you to be able to identify the specific attack before you have to remember which particular thing you are supposed to do?


Mick

As one who "leant by rote" pretty much all his life (as we did back in the gool ol' days ) I can see your point. Maths etc got you a great knowledge of formulas, theory, times table etc but little actual comprehension of what it is you were doing. Still - not sure modern methods are much better, but thats another thread.


Not sure what you're getting at. In what context to do say this?

That is in the context of it being taught by rote.

An exaggeration, but the following should convey the gist of it:
1/ Attacker steps forward with lunge punch to solar plexus
2/ You step left and forward at 63º a distance of 78cm
3/ Parry the punch and grab their wrist with your right hand so that your little finger is precisely 5mm above their wristbone.
4/ Draw the punch along the path it was travelling and rotate the wrist as you do

Supposing you can't draw the arm? All movement has to be relative to what they are doing and what you intend to do as well as your (and their) size. You are also limited by your relative strength so what may work for a stronger person may not be viable for a weaker.


Mick

So are you saying all karateka should create a bunkai for themselves that suites their own strength, size, etc. and adjust their kata accordingly?

I think it's more that we should be able to take a few bits out of a few katas and re-use the self defence techniques in more than one situation... so we could be attacked in any one of a number of ways and use the same move/s to defend each time.
I think.

(sometimes)

You need a good teacher who already knows what you have yet to learn. And who can see where you might be making mistakes because they understand what they're trying to teach rather than just parroting back what they were told a few days beforehand.


Mick

It seems you believe the only way to defend yourself is by a study of kata. Do you disagree with teaching self defence out of context of kata?
To learn effective defence on kata alone would take an incredible amount of time surely (and impossible if the application isnt ever practiced with a partner) Why not plug the gap?

Oh no, certainly there is more than one way to skin, tan and make slippers out of a cat.

You could also train in self defence techniques independent of kata, but that would be useless without regular practice. Kata is simply a tool. But then some people don't know how to use a screwdriver...


Mick

Hey I resemble that remark!

Practicing kata applications with a partner......where have I done that before. Hmmmm

...You resemble that remark? >.>

Was that a left handed or right handed screw driver??????

The spin and overhead tetsui in saifa is a fine example of what I'm about to suggest...

Individual moves or short sequences of moves taken from katas could be applied in real life.

Another example is the archer block in seiunchin. I can really picture that used against a vicious lunge punch. The heel palm strike could esily become a tetsui if this seems better in the situation (the bunkai for this move is the one published in the World Cup edition of shimbun, where the hand initially pointing forward grabs the wrist). this is a good example because it could be performed in a variety of stances (shiko dachi, kiba dachi, hungetsu dachi, heiko dachi, kokutsu dachi).

If you studied it closely, I think you'll find that the katas taught in the syllabus cover most situations, eg. one attcker in front, one behind, or one attcker in front, one to the side etc.

First Kata is great because the pattern can be adapted to nearly anything, it just provides a viable way to defend against multiple opponents.

bradt

(BTW I think he rsembles the tool )

I agree. The only problem is that often the attacks practiced are karate attacks rather than probable attacks. Studies have been done and research published on the most frequent types of assault.


I stopped looking at the bunkai and self defence applications printed in "Shimbum" because they irritated me. Invariably I found a problem with what they showed, or key points were missing which made it possible for the defender to be hurt more by following the application as it was shown.


Yes... as long as the opponents attack in the proper sequence. If one attacks out of turn then things fall apart.


Mick

Fairly new to this Mick as you know, but is that any different from Pinan Nidan?

Is what any different to Pinan Nidan? Taikyoku Shodan?

IMO Taikyoku Shodan is simply kihon kata. There are others in the Taikyoku set which are used by a few schools. No, GKR's Taikyoku Nidan is not part of the set, as it is basically Taikyoku Shodan with a kick bolted on.

As a parallel, there are 12 Jo kihon waza, which also form the basis of the modern Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Jodo-bu (All Japan Kendo Federation Way of Jo Section). These are often practiced kata-style in tandoku (solo) and sotai (partnered) form. Each technique is known, and for the partnered form it is known what the partner's role is. They could be considered to be for building the foundation of practice for "regular" kata.

In a similar way I think the Taikyoku kata contain some basic principles and concepts but aren't meant to be application kata. It's just that some of the principles and concepts are unknown to those teaching them so they have to invent applications to explain the kata.


Mick

Sorry - This:

was in response to this:



(got to use new multiquote feature too! cool! )
Ive wondered about applications of taikyoku shodan and taikyoku gkrdan. There doesnt seem a lot so I also assumed the purpose to be almost a big basic combination!

Well... if you had someone attacking you from the right, would your reaction be to turn 90º to the right to face it, or turn 270º to the left to face it?


Mick

so why is there a 270 degree turn in both kata?

Hip throw?


I've seen that as a throw too - very effective.

Or is the 270º turn simply a mawate combined with a 90º turn to the left to turn you around to then repeat the pattern?

Seiunchin archer block? Do you mean where the body is sideways with the front hand at a lower guard and the rear hand at a high guard? That was used as a throw in Karate Kid III.

Well if I was turning my back to an opponent it would only be to do a back kick, a dodgy proposition in a street situation at the best of times.

I like the throw concept, although it (the turn) does lack any upper body movements to support it.

Yes.. compare the 270º turn in Taikyoku Shodan with the 270º turn near the end of Bassai Dai. The turn in Bassai Dai has an application as a throw (Tai Otoshi). Taking into account the preceding and succeeding movements, does it feel the same or different?


Mick

okay - going through the motions its hard to see the 270deg turn in taik shodan being a hip throw, given the start and end hand techniques.....
so...what is it? why not just step forward on an angle to the right if its only a block? maybe theres another purpose to it?

How much space would you have if you practiced indoors? In your house? Barely enough to go through a pattern once...?

So then what is one way of repeating this basic pattern without running back to where you started and beginning again?

What if you just do a 180º turn after the kiai point and then recommence the same basic pattern?

Was it last week or the week before when I outlined some of the principles contained in Taikyoku Shodan?


Mick

well that would reduce the pattern to just a basic combination yes?

oh no fair editing post!!
I missed last week - and now Im gonna have to play catch ups!

Well... if you consider for a moment that some of Taikyoku Shodan is similar to Pinan Nidan...

We've been through some application for P2. Think also about some of the adjustments to the timing in application that I mentioned and why...

Don't worry, it'll only take a couple of minutes of explanation. And a couple of months of practice


Mick