These days it seems many more people are asking about kata applications or bunkai.

I have heard all sorts of stories about what the kokutsu dachi (back leaning stance) with the shuto uke (knife hand block) does. Including deflecting a sword with your shuto. Not something I'd like to try, those things are $#%@ sharp!

But if we look at what we do know, originally there was uki ashi dachi (floating foot stance). In many schools this evolved into the shorter neko ashi dachi (cat stance) while in Shotokan based schools there appears the familiar kokutsu dachi™ ( ).

So when it comes to examining kata for applications, what happens if you substitute cat stance for back leaning stance? How does this change what you are able to do?


Mick

I dont follow what you are saying.
Are you implying cat stance and back leaning stance should be interchangeable? How would you throw a front kick from kokutsu dach?

Remember Mick...Kokutsu Dachi when performed as a block(Shuto Uke) is designed to lean your body out of harms way and when performed as a strike(Shuto Ken) is no longer necesarilly tartgeting the wrist/arm area of the body but the more vunerable targets like the side of the neck....jaw hinge...etc...etc.
When you change a stance you also change the Intent.
A Kokutsu dachi application for you to try:
Have a partner attack you punching chudan tsuki whilst stepping through in Zenkutsu dachi.
You,as Uke,step back into Kokutsu dachi blocking Shuto uke.
As the block lands,flip the hand over to grasp their wrist.
The front feet of both the attacker and the defender should be positioned in such a way that you only have to retract your front foot and pull with the hand grasping the wrist,to effect a decent sweep/takedown combination.

Hi Bernie

The way I read what you've described, you could pretty much effect the same thing by drawing back into cat stance, your weight will still be mostly on the back foot allowing the front foot to perform a kick and/or a sweep.


Mick

*tries to think of katas involving back leaning stance*



Is it harder to take a long step backwards or forwards in cat stance? It is for me. If I had to "chase" somebody, or get a fair distance away from them, I wouldn't be using cat stance. But if I could take a big step in cat stance, I would be in back leaning stance for a moment anyway....



In theory, once you lifted your front foot to throw a front kick, wouldn't the rest of you still be in much the same position as it would in cat stance?



If we are talking real life applications and not just "this is how we practice it", if you lift your front foot off the floor and bring it towards you while in back leaning stance, you will always find yourself in cat stance? The back foot is on a slightly different angle, but aside from that....


One day, I am going to learn to avoid questions like these at this time of day!

In a "real life" situation you won't find me standing in Kokutsu Dachi in the first place..!!
All the stances of our basics AND our katas are "elongated" to strengthen our legs and muscles.
We extrapolate our applications from our basics and kata and adjust stance hight/length etc...to suit the circumstances....so this discussion(although a good one Mick) is largely academic I'm afraid.

Are any of our stances practical?
I would imagine in the real world theres only one stance, and thats short fighting stance.

Then why practice an application where the attacker attacks


If we are applying kata knowledge to real life, but we are not going to use these stances anyway, why practice that way? Either an "application" is applicable, or it's nothing and a waste of time, surely?

If I'm getting the correct gist of this conversation you guys are saying that we should fling the long/low stances because they serve no practical purpose?

Since the 1930's...stances in karate have been used for leg/muscle strengthening purposes.
Look at the older katas and notice that in most/all of them the dominant stance is Sanchin Dachi.
Drilling Kokutsu dachi/kiba dachi/ Zenkutsu dachi and Shiko dachi are done for more of a fitness reason in modern karate.
Practicing applications using these stances is done as a training aid rather than a self defense purpose.
Shiko dachi and kiba dachi for one example are drilled as the best stances for throws eand takedowns in Goju ryu.
Especially when your leg drops behind the knee of the attacker.
I take it that nobody in this convo is too well versed on the bunkai for Seunchin kata?
The need for low stances becomes abundantly clear when you study the kata indepth.

I wouldn't say that. Long/low stances are often intended to strengthen the legs. Also if you move forward from a short stance, leading with the front foot then you transition through a long stance before the back foot catches up. Often though in kata we have a 'snapshot' effect where there is a distinct pause at each long/low stance.

What I do think though is that we may be best served by training / practicing long/low stances but use natural stances for drills and application.

I haven't studied Seiunchin but often in applications where you need to lower or raise your body it is necessary to keep your back mostly straight rather than lean over to the point your position can become compromised.


Mick

So to escape from a hold/bearhug/grab etc it is essential to drop into a perfectly executed shiko dachi?

Drop into shiko dachi to escape a bearhug? Is that the one where you fling your arms out to side and drop? The one where if your attacking person is trying to squeeze rather than standing passively your head gets caught and you find yourself in a choke instead?


Mick

So super low shika dachi in seiunchin, gotcha

Who cares?
The point is it isnt necessary to drop into a perfect stance to escape a hold/grab/bearhug.

BLASPHEMER!!!!!

Who said that?

mmm tried a bear hug on sam and victoria, got different pains to prove it,and i squeezed hard.
sam cos he is so small he came up off the floor, bless him he back kicked me in the tender place then back head butted me, drawing blood, i soon dropped dropped him.
Victoria with my arms over hers, she slightly stepped to the side and pinched the soft fleshy bits on the inside of my thights at the same time craping her shoes down my shins

Nice kids eh

You know what I hate? Peanut butter with oil on the top...
Also, when I go away to think about discussions on the site, and when I come back, the direction of the discussion has changed entirely!
Ah well.

Working backwards:
- Waters' Jnrs, play nice with your dad.
- shiko dachi for an escape from a bearhug I hadn't heard before - throwing someone, and reverse elbow striking, and Waters' Jnrs ideas I have heard before, and tried.
- which bunkai for seiunchin should we have studied in depth?
- what is "an application from kata"? It seems as if we are talking about (at least!) two different things half the time...


Confusion reigns supreme.
Again.

You should be used to that by now How often do discussions stay on-topic?


Might as well make up your own?




That's the secret Keep changing direction every time you think someone is getting a grasp on things. It lets you deny almost anything later


Mick

Ever thought of going into politics Mick??

Now I must go redesign my class warmup routine just for you


Mick