In a Goju Ryu kata book I have it describes a couple of applications for the opening movements in Seiunchin. It has the whole kata but there's a lot of commonality between applications in Seiunchin and applications found in Saifa.

For the opening movements it describes the first move (hands moving to outside the knees) as a response to having both wrists gripped. You step into a low stance and move the hands apart to pulling them down and apply a headbutt to their face.

The kake uke followed by spearhand is shown as applying a hand throw from having either one or both hands grabbed.

The question raised by someone I was discussing with is why the hands come up through the middle then back down. Ideas?


Mick

Traditionally Mick,it's taught as a counter to a double lapel grab.
The opening sequence is as follows:
Both of your wrists are grabbed..
Simultaniously drop your center of gravity(by explosively dropping into a low Shiko dachi) whilst twisting your seized wrists very quickly to the outside of your knees.
This frees your hands to counter(the Nukite counter).
The opponent tries to initiate a second attack by grabbing both lapels....
Slide your hands(palms outward facing)in between the attacker's grip and once again drop explosivively into Shiko dachi whilst twisting the attackers wrists to the outside of your knees.
THIS drops their head forward to deliver the headbutt Mick.
...Not to be too cryptic but why do we face our Shiko dachi to a 45 degree angle?
remembering that the only block we do in the opening sequence is Kake uke...so it's not so that we are blocking on 45 degrees.
Any takers?
The first correct answer gets a boiled lolly

I'm not going to argue There's more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one application for a given kata sequence.

As to the 45º angle, it seems to me that typically people are more comfortable standing with one foot forward of the other especially when reaching out to the front for something. Given that there are 8 directions for breaking balance but you only need 1 at a time I suspect you may be accessing the direction most suitable at the time.


Mick

OOh! I've got one. I can't say I've tried it but would appreciate some feedback

I gather the hands coming up flat, knuckles togther is to counter a lapel grab or two handed throttle. People are most likely to grab your lapels from the front - so both you and the opponent would presumably start out face to face.

If you were in heiko dachi and got grabbed by the lapels, seizing both wrists and just pulling down whilst dropping directly into sumo would just end with a clash of heads. By stepping out at 45, wouldn't the opponent finish up with their head about level with yours, but far enough in front of your face for you to throw out that kake uke and grab their ear, hair or the back of the neck.

You can now pull them directly onto that nukite and really ruin their day in an 'aarrghh! my eye!' kind of way.

I must admit I don't know if GKR has imposed any changes to Seiunchin as I've never seen the original Goju version, so it may be a completely duff answer.

OK
away from the opening moves...

...i was going through seiunchin the other day and thought of another way of using a certain move.

We are all familiar with the double block, grab uppercut to the jaw move facing the back corner...

...instead of this my thoughts were moving towards a deflection of a punch with said 'grab' hand, while stepping closer to the opponent (sumo stance) and striking underneath the armpit of the attachers 'striking' arm using either the proper uppercut strike or an upwards front back fist type move. By attacking a persons inner arm near the arm pit you will hit many nerves and nerve endings causing the arm to become useless.

Hi Susan

Not to take away from your post, but I tend to regard nerve points and such more as bonus points than being central to a technique since the sensitivity can be affected by things such as a person's natural sensitivity on a particular point, drugs or alcohol.

In this case however at worst it could make a good softener/distraction considering there are other movements following the upward strike, and at best deaden the arm as you say.


Mick

well mick,

if you were to use this technique to 'deaden' the arm you wouldnt stop there... that would be suicide

you'd have to continue your attack with other moves, the dead arm is just a bonus.

i merely suggested this option as an uppercut to the jaw while dropping into sumo stance isnt going to work. especially if your attacker is someone like brian joiner (you guys remember him?) or simon johnston (a student of white gum valley). i couldnt upper cut their jaws if i was on my tippy toes let alone when in sumo stance...

I agree completely and I did mention that there are other movements in the sequence after the uppercut...


Mick

Does seem pointless doing an uppercut dropping into sumo.
Surely that would take the power out of it.

take out the power and lower the aim.

most poeple i know say the uppercut is to the jaw!

of who?
danny divito?

In the penultimate sequence if we change the step forward to a step backward we have an escape from being grabbed around the neck from behind.


Mick

Not to detract from the rest of the discussion, but can we go back to this bit? I don't like the double lapel grab line - I would probably break a nail trying to get someone to let go of me by doing it that way.
And why are we looking 45 degrees to the left/right of the person supposed to be doing the grabbing? I would have thought they would be standing directly in front of me...

-- K

Try this as a thought for that move:

As you say (and is more likely) someone grabs your lapels (as if coming in for a head butt) - hands go up inside the grab (hands back to back), grab attackers wrists, then pull hands down and out and drop into shiko as you do. Dropping the bodyweight aids the hold break, breaks their balance and puts you in a good position for a variety of finishing moves (my fave being a hisa geri (knee) to the face as they fall forwards.)

I've said this before, but look at the principles in the kata - sometimes shuffling the order of moves around will give you some ideas on some workable applications too.

The one I've described is the standard Goju (GKI) bunkai. There's a few more there if you play with it.

In comment to the opening sequence it is a double hand grab and the 45 degrees is to move away from your opponents strong stance. Our applications then has a Mae Geri (front kick) from Shiko Dachi and no headbutt. The Nukie Tzuki(Knife Hand Attack) is done as a different application getting in close to the body.

In comment to the double block uppercut, this is when confronted by a supprise attach the reason for going into Shiko Dachi(sumo) is the initial double block is from a punch and a kick the Shiko Dachi is to get in closer to the body, after the uppercut a back fist is delivered then a Gedan Bari block in Shiko Dachi and another in opposite stance. The idea being you struck or attacked by muiltiple techniques from the side/behind you counter and then block retreat, then meeting on equal terms. You can then kick their but.


Cheers
Garth

Surely dropping into Shiko dachi puts oneself in an extremely vulnerable position? How does one front kick from shiko dachi?

The dropping into Shiko Dachi is to help break the double hand grab by adding your body weight to help pull away. Due to the fact we are at 45% the position is not as vulnerable as it would be otherwise. The kick from shiko dachi is a okinawan goju thing most of the leg work is done to low level and with practice it works well, secondly the inertia of the attacker is moving forward so power is not as important as the attackers weight will pull them onto the kick.

Cheers
Freek

Why not just block some surprise incoming hand attack with the double block, grab a body part (head, shoulder, shirt, etc), and use shiko dachi to attack the knees and legs? Then use the following tetsui to the groin or leg or knee, or applied higher you may push the attacker over backwards (if you got behind their leg with shiko dahci - kind of dodgy on that one!)

Back to the first move ... why think of shiko dachi as a formal stance? If the opponent grabs your lapels and goes for a head-butt (statistically a very probable attack!), the best defense is to get a hand (or hands) on front of your face. Then why not grab their noggin with your hands, which are in place already, and try a knee strike to their nose?

In kata terms, that is the bit where you pull your hands down.

Using the kata stances and techniques in the exact order they are performed, and with strict adherence to their assumed purpose, only leads to sillier and sillier explanations of bunkai, and unrealistic expectations. Who really thinks they can take on three opponents using the first 5 to 8 movements of first kata?

Sure! As long as they attack formally with mae geri from a long stance and make sure they attack in the proper order. One of them pushing in and going first when it's another's turn is just plain rude!


Mick

Agree - bad guys should watch more movies...thats how it happens there