[FONT=Times][SIZE=7][COLOR=red]

Err...what exactly do you want to know about it?

Possibly all of it, as it was stated, "Need to know". Probably needs it for their next grading or something.

I did a google search on "bassai" and "history" and it turned up some rather amusing tales. Just because someone wrote something down doesn't mean it's true. Dunno if this helps...

from http://kengo-scotland.50megs.com/photo3.html
Bassai-Dai
Bassai begins with the right fist covered by the left hand. This gesture may come from China as a sign of respect, or it could simply be a way of performing kata that the person who gathered these particular kata together enjoyed. Maybe an Okinawan karate expert always started his kata in this position, and we retain the movement today. We really cannot be sure about the history of some karate kata. Bassai Dai in Shito-ryu is a defensive kata. It has to do with being inside the castle. Bassai Dai is done within the fortress and its feeling is impenetrability.


from http://www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/staff/...or-Bassai-43910

Bassai Dai

Bassai means "To Penetrate a Fortress". Dai means "Major", "Big" or "Primary". The Bassai Dai kata also known in Okinawa as Passai Dai is the original version of the form. Other variations are known as Bassai Sho, Ni & San. Bassai is a very strong kata. It incorporates heavy multi-block combinations to wear down and destroy an attackers offense and defense. Originally practiced in Shuri Okinawa, there is also a version that likely had roots in the Tomari village.


from http://oldweb.uwp.edu/academic/hpea/class/...ahistories.html

Form: Bassi (In -dai (major/greater) and -sho (minor/lesser) versions)

Also Known As: Paisai Dai, Tawada no Paisai

Meaning: Breaking the Giant Enemies Circle. Breaking Through the Fortress Form. To penetrate (storm) a fortress.

Interpretation: Strong convictions in the intrinsic goodness of all mankind and the affirmative nature of life and the values of love, charity, faith and loyalty.

History: The Bassai or Pasai katas are believed to have been originated and composed strictly for King Oyoda Mari of the Ryu kyu Islands, for his personal body guards' us in saving his life against enemy encounters. The katas were being taught by Kosaku Matsumora, in Tomari, Okinawa around 1869. The forms were the favorite of Bushi Matsumura, Choki Motobu, Chotoku Kyan and Chosin Chibana.

It is important to note the first technique of the kata is not a morote-uki (accentuated middle block), but is the combination of a middle block and a reverse punch.

Hidden Movements: The hidden and symbolic interpretations in Bassai deal with the ruler elements, when both hands, palm down, are brought back to shoulder level,with the forearms perpendicular to the floor, just before the execution of the double backfist strikes: "I bring the beating waves upon my body (blood flow), and release the heated steam (breath) that turns into a burning fire in my lower stomach (saika tanden).


from http://www.angelfire.com/fl/shindoryu/bbkata.html

Bassai Sho, Ni, San & Tomarai Bassai

Bassai means to "Penetrate a Fortress". Bassai sho was developed by Anko Itosu and based on the original "Dai" version, however the "SHO" version deals with an attacker wielding a Bo (staff). Bassai Sho can be translated to mean "To Penetrate a Small Fortress". Bassai Ni was also developed by Itosu and essentially follows the same principles of power although it displays them in a much more offensive way. Bassai San was created by Kiyoshi Uehara and though it too pays tribute to the original it is it's own form. Bassai San includes various spinning parries and grappling moves...a very nice advanced kata. Tomari Bassai is likely the original version of the kata. It is very similar to the "Dai" version prcacticed in most schools with one exception...the hands are open in a palm up spearhand (nukite). Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu practices this kata and calls it simply by its Okinawan name."Passai. Tomari can be translated to mean "Thunder" and therefore Tomari Bassai would mean "To
Penetrate a Thunder Fortress".


Mick

Wow, thanks for the information, Mick. I knew Bassai Dai meant "Destroying the Fortress", but whoo. Information overload. =O

Again, just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true. You have to take everything with a grain of salt.

For example..



Three districts in Okinawa which are well-known as the homes of karatemen are Shuri, Naha and Tomari. IMO this means that Tomari Bassai simply refers to the common version of Bassai practiced by the karatemen of the Tomari district.


Mick

Just thought I'd resurect an old topic.......

Recently decided to go to a tournament purely to watch since I hadn't been to one before. After a bit of pondering though I thought 'Why not enter for a laugh?'. Now, I'm only a yellow belt so what kata should I do? Well looking up the choices open to me on the unofficial web site I would be allowed to do bassa dai (am I wrong there?). Why not thinks me, it could be fun. So last night I tell my instructor....... oh dear not at all impressed. Apparently my first two katas are OK and I'd have a chance of a medal but that my bassa dai has lots of errors and bits which I do in an old style (shotokan). This is perfectly true. But I'm not going to the tournament to try to win a medal, I just want to go and watch really and I'm entering because I'll be there and it might be fun. problem is that apart from telling me my Bassa dai isn't good enough she won't tell me anything specific so I can't work on it! Wouldn't even let me do it then in the lesson. Mighty annoying....... Looks like I may make a fool of myself at my first tourny but never mind.
Is my view of this really that unusual or shall I risk asking another instructor for some help? Is it somehow disrespectful for me to wish to d this or is there something I'm missing?

Hey Coward

I think its a max of 2 up from your graiding Kata, whick ties in with what you think.

If your 1st and 2nd are medal worthy and Bassadi crap, why would you set your self up for failure?

Try turning up early/stay late and do kata outside of class time, this shows your committed and does not disrupt the plans for the class :thumbwink: and you may recieve the feedback you require.

Its all in the way you approach it, like "I'm gunna do This" or "what are my chances IF I do this"

Asking Open questions (not simple yes/no questions), gives the person being asked scope to give an answer you may have not expected, with out appearing rude.

Warren

If you're entering just for fun and want to do Bassai Dai, why not do the Shotokan version that you know and say "oops, went on autopilot" or something after?


Mick

Hi

I wouldn't consider it as 'setting myself up for failure'. Like I said I'm going along mainly to watch and just entering for fun. If I'm doing a kata I might be OK at then I would feel under pressure and would not enjoy the day so much. I'd also have to practice it lots between now and then. When I was a kid I was (or felt) under pressure to do well in competitions and this made them totally unenjoyable to me. Just wanna relax, have fun and enjoy my karate now I'm older. If I can do a reasonable bassa dai on the day and not get laughed at then I'd consider that a good day whatever my score may be.

I've tried the turning up early and practicing it but I just get observed as a currious odity ('Oh look a yellow belt that thinks he can do Bassa dai.. poor deluisional fool...') and don't get any real feedback on corrections. Part of it may be that I've just refussed to grade but thats another story....

I have changed my kata to the GKR way as far as I'm able to tell from looking at blue belts practicing it. Its just lots of little things which are hard for me to pick up without being told eg.

1. The wavey left hand thing before the turn/side kick/kia bit.... should the hand rise to move accross the face or body (or neither)

2. Bit near the end after the three double punches where you turn in a sort long forward stance block a kick then do an inside hooking block. What happens to the hips? I've seen it done a few different ways. No hip movement, turning the hips off on the kick (groin) block and keeping them there, not turning the hips off till the hooking block and hardest of all turning them off on each block by retwisting the hips back slightly inbetween the moves.

3. Right near the end when moving into the backleaning stance facing the wrong way. When moving into this stance should the backfoot turn so that it at the correct angle or should it remain where it was on the previous stance. In Shotokan the back foot was left in its original position which made it possible to keep looking to the corner of the room while moving into stance. Whats the GKR way (I've seen a mixture of methods used...)?


Any help with these would be great but I'm sure theres lots of things I don't know I'm doing wrong and so don't know to ask.... Ho hum

G'day coward, buy the video m8 ,i'm sure that'll help solve your grief. They cost about $12 here and can be bought through our sensei's,hopefully your sensei might be able to his/her hands on 1, Worth the effort if you can get hold of 1.

Heard nothing but bad things about the vids (out of date bad quality etc), besides I thought I paid my money to be taught karate not for the honour of being alowed to buy a video to teach myself. I'm not turning up saying 'I want to do bassa dai, I don't know it at all but teach me now!' I'm saying 'can I show you my bassa dai and could you tell me some corrections or give me some constructive criticism?' I found the answer of 'No' really put me in a grumpy mood. I might not sound like it but I'm nearly over it now....... honest.

I find it disturbing that no-one will help you in this matter. Someone correct me if Im wrong but a yellow belt doing Bassai dai in NAS would not be unusual? If not why is it not okay for the general student? (and why cant general students enter NAS anyway? why a 'team'? /rant off for a later time). I recall when Perth was pretty small the open division was exactly that - any belt or age could enter. I personally thought it was great seeing yellow and orange belts having a go, attempting higher katas. (To do so now would take all day so I understand the restrictions). Id be interested if you did what Mick suggested, but be prepared for some fallout.

Good luck mate!

Hi again coward,
As to the video quality ,i've bought 2 over the past yr, go-kan-ryu basics, the quality was crap but i figured after watching it with disapointment that it was better than relying on my grey fodder, (think i only watched it a few times anyway) but my kids still get something from it, it also has a weird looking tripple block!must have changed since the video was made. The 2nd was a saifa video,exerlant quality and showed veiws front and back, then also broke down into sections showing hand and feet positions, some moves have recently been slightly changed but figures thats what sensei's are for, correcting and teaching. I also approached my sensei's a few months back about learning bassai-dai for an upcoming tornament (this coming weekend),as i've recently graded to 6th kyu i figured as I would be up against 6th,5th and 4Th kyu's doing a higher kata would not only challange me but maybe aid me in a positioning.
I was encouraged to stick to saifa, the reason being a sound quality saifa would be judged less harsher than an ordinary bassai-dai....not looking forward to the incoming hammering from 5th and 4th kyu's in the kumite. oh yer and I'll probably buy the bassai-dai video even if it only helps in remembering the pattern.
trix B)
ps thought the word NO was prohibited in gkr yer sensei should help you. shame on them.

I just don't get why we can't do higher grade kata at topurnaments, I mean any kata we want? At NAS I have been doing saifa since March and it's sending me insane, doing such an unimpressive kata. My sensei was rapt when I asked her to help me train up hard on Empi, even though I'm a green belt. I am aiming to take out the National title for my division (10th to 6th Kyu, 16-17 years M/F) and I want to blow everyone away withan awesome Empi, giant leap and all, instead of same-old-Saifa. If I pull it off, shouldn't this suggest that the rule in GKR is unreasonable? What has the club got to lose in a GKR-only tournament?

Thanks everyone for your comments. I now remember that a few weeks ago with that instructor I had to swap places with a blue belt so that other people up 'that end' could follow me because they kept getting lost. Anyway all history now. I got a much better response from another sensei yesterday (BB) who stayed behind for an hour after class to go through it quite thoroughly with three of us. So I got lots of help full hints/corrections etc. He reckons I won't look stupid doing it so I'll give it a go.

bradt: I think they won't let low grades go any higher than Bassai is because then they would need higher grade judges. I think its 6th kyu to judge the yellow/orange division. A bit iffy letting them judge Bassai if you ask me but no way could they be expected to judge higher kata with any authority.......

Just as a last grumble: If we should not judge our instructors on their belt (i.e the justification for the BW belt), surely we should not be so judged on our belts.

Up to a point I will teach a student any kata they want to learn.

In the end if they're spending their time learning pattern after pattern instead of practicing what they need for their grading then it is nobody else's fault if they don't grade when they expect to.

Of course, it is a complete waste of time learning endless numbers of kata without knowing anything more than how to do the pattern. IMO anyway.


Mick

I agree Mick, i'm glad i didn't get too wrapped up in learning higher kata's, i just learnt 2 above my grade kata and that'll do.
Plus now i'm starting to learn things about saifa i never knew and am trying to make it the best i possibly can before november :thumbwink:

[COLOR=blue]
Wonders where to start on this 1.Having reached 5th kyu in december brings me to learning Bassai-Dai correctly.Being an old fella I've stuck with learning the grade katas as i've gone along and not really ventured too far ahead, figured as i've got 6 months or so from the beginning of blue to learn it y start too early n get bored when it comes around(bored may be a poor choice of word).I have the video..fairly good quality,and will be used mainly for learning the pattern, as some moves have been tweaked along the way, these will be corrected in class no doubt, been through it several times, have shadowed ppls doing Bassai-Dai several times during class.
WOW what a kata,saifa was fairly easy to pick up but this 1...so much happening...so many little things that I've previously not noticed.I figure everyone has a particular way of learning a kata, and up untill now i've had no problems, so here's the biggy learned ones, whats the best way of sorting this kata out, foot work then hand work , learn both at the same time or just plod along in my usual way..do a few moves repeat ,repeat repeat then gradually add the next position?

I tend to learn patterns a section at a time and build up into the whole thing. Depending on what happens within a class though I will either learn it a bit at a time or go through the whole thing repeatedly and come away remembering sections but perhaps missing some bits in-between. Practicing some application alongside the kata also helps retain the form.


Mick

If the way you learn best is to "plod along in my usual way..do a few moves repeat ,repeat repeat then gradually add the next position", then that is the way to go.
It is harder to learn than the first three kata because there are no repeating sections, and of course it is longer. I learned it in sections of about 5 moves at a time combining upper and lower body moves because mostly they are techniques I knew. And direction is not too hard because except for two bits it is all done moving forward or backward.
Learn it the way you learn best. It is going to be your kata after all.

-- K

Ta muchly Mick & Numee, gives me something to focus on till classes come back next week. Hopefully I'll have it at least half nutted out by then.
trick.

Hi Everyone,


Much like everyone else here I enjoy Kata and Bunkai.

Just getting back to Bassai Dai.

Bassai Dai has nothing to do with being"done in a fortress." Bassai Dai is a Shuri-te kata and is performed strongly hence the feeling you should have when performing the kata is one of connection.

Don't accept one set of Bunkai as the only answer, I assure you its not. The limitation of the Bunkai is your own imagination.

As for competition with Bassai, control your nerves. (Even I had trouble controlling my nerves with this Kata in Japan.) Learn from the experience.

Cheers

New year, enough with the off-topic posts and back to some serious stuff

Hmm thinking about applications for Bassai Dai... the opening sequence of the version I practice is similar but without the exaggerated lifting of the hands and knee before going into the reinforced block. Nevertheless...

Against a descending strike or swinging punch, intercept and strike to the face then follow with a shoulder throw (seoinage).
Against a crosshand wrist grab (of right wrist), a side wrist crush or nikkyo.
Against same side wrist grab (of left wrist), a reverse wrist twist (preceded by a strike to the face) or move and draw their arm across to where an armbar can be applied.

Some of these I prefer over others...

Opinions or comments?


Mick

I do like the wrist grab defence for the second move...especially when done with first move hands low rather than the 'Chinese salute' position. (does any other style start from the 'salute' position??)

Me too. Was working on bassai dai and a little bit of it's bunkai last night, and we treated it as a wrist grab, instead of the usual salute business...

Still, if we take the "salute" out of the start, then what do we make of the salute at the end? I think by the end of the kata, you definitevely kill the enemy with the last shito uke... you wouldnt want to grab anyone else on the last move, as you dont do anything about them...

Does it do anything? Don't most kata return to yoi (ready) at the finish? Or is there in fact another purpose?


Mick

NFI...

IF you say it is a salute, it makes sense to have two of them - beginning and end.

IF it makes sense that the first one really isnt one, then it makes sense that the one at the end isn't one either.
Even breaking the kata down into lots of possible attacks, there should not be an attack that isn't properly dealt with right at the end.
So I would be more inclined to lean towards perhaps a yoi, though no other kata (that I am aware of - can't remember many now anyways) seems to have that sort of move as a yoi.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you will anyway.....


*Sigh* Think I'll go bury my head in the sand again.

Don't forget that some moves in kata are for practice, or for transition into the next sequence, or just to return you to the starting point (particularly it seems this in kata in Japanese schools).

Some people do tend to go overboard and create applications for every single move in a kata, but if that was the case then what point having a kata instead of just running through a series of techniques?



AFAIK Goju kata all have a common yoi of gedan barai no kamae - the starting position typical of Sanchin.

Among the others, Enpi has a fist-in-palm at the left waist and Naifanchi kata have fist-in-palm in front of the body as start and finish postures.



A wise man once said "Man with head in sand get sunburnt bum"

If you put your head in the sand you can't learn from mistakes. The people who learn most are the ones who are prepared to make mistakes. Though even a fool can appear wise if he keeps his mouth shut.


Mick

Well at least I'd get a nice sun tan

Seriously though, I was just saying that the "salute" and the end seemed a little odd.
However, I agree that some moves in kata are not just for fighting, and can teach you other things, such as control, as well as make the kata look good!

I'm sure it would look good to appear all wise and all knowing, by not saying anything stupid ( most of my posts ), but I want to learn more, and expand my mind and knowledge.

Sometimes though, it is easier not NOT question what we are taught, and just nod and smile, and go along with any given explanation.
I feel that something was lacking when I stopped karate a few years ago, and perhaps now I have found what was lacking, the quest for deeper and more in depth information regarding what we are taught, and why we are taught it.

However, you get less headaches when you accept given explanations.

Sure. Don't go reading stuff I posted a year ago...


Mick

So we're not alloowed to resurrect old threads then huh????

Exactly I can resurrect old threads but nobody else is allowed to


Mick

Bite me. I'm re-re-re-resurrecting this one.
Crescent kick, double punch. Near the end.
If it's a double punch. We are taught it is a short punch and head level punch at the same time. But, if it's a short punch, why are we also taught that the hand moves to our middle before it is launched? Neither 'punch' has much power from there. And both hands tend to come out kinda sideways-ish.
Spew forth ideas, children.

And Mick.

Have you ever seen any fighter of any code punch with two hands at the same instance?

Read the rules! Person asking the question automatically volunteers to be demo'd on. When is it that you'll be here?



Cool, I don't have to sit at the kids table any longer


Mick

Erggh. I HATE this part of the kata, cause I cant make my hands do the 'come to the middle first' bit. They always seem to want to come from the hip.



Hmm, does that mean the rest of us do? And do we get alcohol at this 'kids' table?

Well actually....

for region 28 this was just completely cleared up...

from preparation, the top hand (the one about to do the 'short punch') is the only one that moves to the centre of the body.
the elbow then needs to pull in towards the body as you push the fist forwards in a straight line, the elbow doesnt leave your side until the very end of the strike...

the OTHER hand does not move across prior to punching and does a simple, basic straight head level punch. if it does move it would only be slightly backwards to reinforce the preparation. again the elbow should be farthest back pushing the fist out straight...

hope you understand my blabbering...

as far as bunkai for that move goes... a 7 year old blue belt student of mine came up with a rather nifty way of using this technique...

this could best be done as a wrist grab but if oyu are flexible you could use this for a collar or throat grab also...

what she did was allow for the 'attacker' to grab her gently (she didnt allow for a full grip to be held) and then used the crescent kick to kick over then land on and pull down the attackers arm(s). following through with a double punch to the stomach and head raiden or jax style (gotta love mortal combat)

Understood the blabbering perfectly - since I went to training last night and realised I had written it wrong - I was thinking too much about one thing and not the other. The hand doing the higher punch doesn't come to middle, but still never feels like it has much oomph for me. Guess I am probably doing it wrong since I always worry about the short punch hand.
But I do like that explanation.

Bunkai for that move.... hmm.

I suppose if you got a good grip on the testicles and throat, yanking the testicles up as you push forwards on the throat could possibly push your opponent over...

BYW I'm not volunteering as uke.

Hi Slammy,
I'm wondering what Iain Abernathy demonstrates for that move as application!

Boz

Is it that important that it comes to the middle of the body? Really, who on earth is going to notice? Is this just to tie it in with the basic short punch?

Apparently


My instructors!


Yes, according to the way we are taught.
GKR kata is very much about performance and so it is important to get each technique precisely as prescribed by the powers that be... the sad fact that this differs from region to region is of course a problem, but it's still the GKR way.

And on bunkai for the move... have been looking and reading... found these throws (click on dai-ikkyo (group 1) Uki-goshi, dai-nikyo (group 2) Harai-goshi, or dai-sankyo (group 3) Hane-goshi), which fits in with the turn after the "double punch" - so what if it is a grab/throw and not a double punch at all? Makes sense. The crescent kick? Maybe it's unrelated? Maybe it knocks aside a kick, punch, something? Seeing as it isn't a GKR taught move, it's hard to guess what it could be for.
I understand that the top hand would move to the centre of the body first whether this is a throw or a double punch - altho I still say a punch is going to be really ineffective from there - but either way it would be like a poorly powered backfist if it did not move to the middle first.
Oh - re Matt's question "Have you ever seen any fighter of any code punch with two hands at the same instance?" - I've never seen any fighter of any other code fight - only ever seen GKR kumite. Oh, and some TKD sparring now too.
Mick, you never did the demo - I'm disappointed. Matt was there and all! You are still banished from the kids table. You can remain in the corner on your own.

The GKR version is based on the Shotokan model. The Shotokan model comes from the Itosu version which was a revision of an older version. Itosu revised Passai for the new School PE program.

It is necessary to know this because prior to the U punches, in the older versions and even in Shitoryu's version (also based on Itosu's PE model), the elbow strike into the hand and consecutive downward blocks are executed facing south, i.e. in the same directions as the U punches.

Generally the Shotokan explain this move as the top hand defending against a head punch or hair grab with the bottom hand applying a blow to the attacker's body. In older kata, a two handed punch doesn't necessarily mean that both hands are punching at the same time.

In Goju kata this double punch is usually executed after a 180o turn. I use it as a response to being seized by the shoulder from behind, one turns and locks up the arm and counters with a punch.

Nooms has guessed correctly in that if the situation turns into a scuffle then you seize the attacker and turn 180o and throw them down and strike them on the ground. I use the Tai Otoshi (body drop) as an example of a throw.
Boz

*sigh* there is too much meaning lacking in modern kata...

No there isnt.

Most ppl just dont know what the meaning is.

Thats my zen comment for the day..

Hi Rancer,

1 Yes there is.
2. Agree because of 1
3. No, just a comment based on your experience.

Cheers,
Boz

It does seem that there has been a lot of passing on of kata over time without passing along the underpinning knowledge. Then somewhere along the way the kata is changed. For whatever reason. Then people try to fit meaning (application) to the kata when it is no longer as it was. Then when what they want it to mean doesn't quite fit they change the kata to make it fit. Then...

Where did the notion that kata has application come from? For a long time it seems only the form was practiced, then "all of a sudden" there was a surge of interest in function.. Where did this come from? Is it because some folks (e.g. Shotokan who were not known for practicing application) looked at other groups (e.g. Goju who were more known for it) and said "Hmm... that seems to make some sort of sense. We need to do that with our kata"?

But then with Shotokan kata we have the problem that the kata has been changed over time to suit the opinions of preceding generations of teachers, with the stereotypical large, strong movements and deep stances, and application is dreamt up to explain what is being done.

What we "know" now is that pre-karate was for civilian self defence and therefore might be dealing with brawlers, thugs and various other unsavoury types. So perhaps practicing defences against such things as high round kicks, front kicks and nice straight punches delivered from a deep stance is not really what it's about?

What does come about is that when some common sense is applied and some time is spent studying defences against common garden-variety assaults you come across defences which bear an uncanny resemblance to various kata sequences. Perhaps they do not fit exactly to any particular sequence in kata but to be so close... coincidence? Or design?


Mick

Hmmm........ I tend to agree..... Modern karate has tended to be about long low stances. which is all about perfecting stances and kata in the kyu grades - and refining them in the dan grades.
But back to the point. -
- I believe that the original meaning and form behind kata has been lost over the years. It was certainly changed when karate moved to the mainland of japan in the early 20th century.
We have to practice these katas, perfect them and hope to discover the applications within them.
We are training with what is left and we have to remember that. All we can do is remember, refine and perfect - whichever style we are.