Wombat16 said- " We have to practice these katas, perfect them and hope to discover the applications within them. We are training with what is left and we have to remember that. All we can do is remember, refine and perfect - whichever style we are."

Actually the problem is that karateka practise, perfect and remember kata incorrectly. If you are trying to remember kata and the associated latest change, then practise and perfect them you are really just spinning your wheels. Kata are tools meant to be used to illustrate certain aspects of karate. Its not kata that has applications, it is karate techniques that have purpose and intent and often more than one because human movement is involved.

What we think of as kata applications, usually incorrectly described as bunkai, are mere examples of how our karate can be used to deal with physical confrontation. In the modern era, there are plenty around interpreting kata based on their knowledge, skill and experience. Naturally different karateka come up with different 'applications'.

The study of older karate and their associated kata, with a little help from an experienced person who has trained under someone in direct lineage to the early pioneers reveals common principles. There are a few around. Having said that, if one just wants to kick and punch and compete or stay fit.. any modern style will do.

Hello,

I would like to suggest that it is not realistic to make generalizations about all 'sport' or 'modern' karate-ka not knowing the fundamentals of karate. There are many teachers and karate-ka throughout the world that can teach much more than Punch Kick Block (PKB).

If you want to learn the applications for this or any other kata, it is not that hard, just find a teacher that knows them ;-)

Big

Neither realistic nor fair. Good point.

Big,

Are you referring to something I posted? If so please quote it for me to check, if not my post, sorry.

Boz

Boz, in one of your posts you said
"What we think of as kata applications, usually incorrectly described as bunkai, are mere examples of how our karate can be used to deal with physical confrontation."
If kata applications are not bunkai - then what is bunkai?

Boz-sensei

No apology needed. I should have quoted the messages I was referring to.

I know this is something of a point of contention but without wanting to get hung up on terminology it could be argued that common usage of a word can bring about an alteration in the meaning. Maybe it's not quite the same with Japanese (or Chinese) when ideograms are used. Nevertheless I agree that it becomes confusing when the wrong word is used because the meaning is misunderstood. It's one reason I tend to use "applications" instead of "bunkai" or even "oyo" in discussions. Though more than once I've been told "oh you mean bunkai"...

Sure, different karateka will come up with different applications depending on their own experiences and knowledge. And this is probably to be expected, especially in the absence of concrete information. Personally I don't see a great problem with this if a common-sense approach is taken because you're likely to end up with realistic and practical applications. The obvious drawback though is the prevalence of blinkered viewpoints and the proposal of applications which, because a long low front stance is used in the kata as it is currently performed, utilise that same stance in application and adjust the attack to fit the defence.

There is perhaps also something of a tendency to prefer one's own homebrewed applications over others even when they are flawed and/or another application is better.


Mick

'Bunkai' means analysis and 'oyo' means 'practical' so bunkai-oyo can be translated as a practical application based on analysis. I know that bunkai has just become accepted as meaning kata application(s).
The term has been grafted on to karate in Japan and most likely by Mabuni according to my old Japanese mentor. Nevertheless the label is not that important as long as we all know what it refers to.

Boz

Well this is interesting.
It would appear that by their very nature kata tournaments destroy the very basis of what they are trying to showcase.

Wow.. somebody gets it!
Boz

My sentiments exactly.

Must be the day for it! This from the latest USATKA newsletter:




Mick

Ever had homemade custard that hasn't had sugar added? Don't try it - it tastes like old paper that may have been soaked in milk. Even when you ADD sugar to it afterwards it only tastes like old paper that may have been soaked in milk, and then had sugar added.
And, because I'm a kata addict and haven't been in class enough lately (and am feeling deprived), this made me think of kata.... because we kind of cook it up without following the original recipe, and then try to add things to it later. And it STILL tastes funny. Well, except maybe to my dog, who is currently eating a very large bowl of custard because he'll eat anything anyway.
So ... now I've forgotten the point.... no, my point is - what do I do with MY kata now? Bassai in particular, as it is my current grade kata. I choose to think that there is more to kata than performance, but within GKR I will only really be taught performance, and shown some applications that help me to get the performance right.

Why does it take a lifetime to "know" a kata? What is there to know? Without changing the performance aspect of the kata, how do I get this out of kata? Why is there not just one kata? What is the point in spending an eternity on one kata and missing what the others have stored? WHERE ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS?
Hmmm. Sidetracked myself. Maybe that's for another thread.
How can I bring out the flavour in kata (within GKR boundaries) without just adding sugar?

Oww my head!!!!

*considers posting recipe for Creme Anglaise, and telling everyone to make it whilst doing kata*

ich Whisk! nee whisk! san stir! shi pour!.....

IIRC Nooms, the instructions were lost decades (or a century or more?) ago, when the original creators who hid all the secrets in the kata, shuffled off this mortal coil.

You can always find applications that help your "performance" of the kata, in the tournament performance kind of way.

Always more fun to discover applications to a real situation, but you have to free yourself of the mindset that you must use every technique verbatim in the same stance and the same order. This freedom has NOT been extended to us in the lastest Shimbun bunkai examples ...

Exaactly. Just add sugar.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!! A Kombat fan, Susan you ROCK!

Marry me...

This is a moot conversation for followers of GKR.

Bunkai is only valid for black belts and above and not in the curriculum because its irrelevant.

I'm off back to my own thread now.

I put off replying to this because it really ... annoyed ... me when I first read it. This is not a "moot conversation" for GKR students. I don't know that I'm a follower of GKR. But I am a student and I wanna know, so it's not hypothetical.
And for those who leave training in GKR and sit and snigger - what are you doing to change things?

Nooms, tried that when I was still with GKR. Got told not to teach stuff that wasnt on the syllabus.

Gave back my BW belt. Some people (not meaning students here) just dont want to be helped.

Nooms, I brought up the subject of bunkai when I was a B&W. I'd been cross training in karate-jutsu which was for the most part partner work on kata applications and kata based sparring (kumite could include locks, takedowns etc)

When I mentioned this to my RM, he told me the other sensei (5th dan) was making it all up as he went along - karate is just kicks, blocks and punches - my RM could not be swayed from that viewpoint.

Whilst I'm sure the students would like to learn more, I cant see the money men wanting to do all the extra work (and higher insurance risks) as the current model is already proven to be extremely lucrative.

well ive been teaching for 2 and 1/2 years and the entire time ive been encouraged by my RM to teach bunkai, not only the "set GKR" bunkai, but other useful applications that ive come across...

lately especially...

more and more focus is on using applications taken from kata to assist in kumite...

So, not only is it encouraged in classes but it does seem to be part of the syllabus, just not in a particularly forward way...

I agree. You do have to do a little searching for it, bu there are people who teach/explain/share their thought on bunkai.

Just because it's not handed to you on a plate doean't mean it doesn't exist in GKR!

In general teaching of application does not exist in GKR. Even when you find instances where some is taught they are isolated cases involving a handful of people, so it is entirely fair to say it is not part of the syllabus otherwise it would be as widespread as teaching how to punch or kick.

The problem with teaching applications is that you can easily end up teaching applications. It's very much like teaching kata - focus is given to learning just how to do something and the reasons why are easily overlooked, ignored or forgotten. I could easily spend the whole duration of a class teaching applications, but experience has shown that it would largely be a waste of time. Why? Because without understanding the basics of the applications (talking leverage and movement etc not how to do techniques) they'd be largely forgotten by the next day and almost totally gone within a week.

This is something that was touched upon in my class this week - once you comprehend why you do something and how things are connected it becomes really obvious how you arrive at the application from the form.

Then you also have three camps - those who nod and agree and avoid directly answering things because they don't know, those who agree and provide answers which lead you to more questions because they do know and are trying to teach you instead of just telling you, and those who disagree because kata is just the "arty" side of the martial "art" of karate.

You can probably separate people into their respective camps by asking what is the similarity between the opening movements of Pinan Shodan (or Heian Nidan) and Bassai Dai, for example...


Mick