I always reckoned that kids would be keen to do kata instead of moaning about it if they put a jump in all of them...




Mick

I wish I could jump I'm getting there stupid calf injury

Bet you kill 'em on the dance floor eh Mick?

Only when I land on 'em


Mick

It's amazing Sionnagh.

My current level form has just been modified to include two "jumping" techniques. These changes alone make the form look and feel more impressive.
Plus they add to the meaning behind the techniques. Bunkai?

Well I'm not a big fan of things like jumping kicks - once you lose your contact with the ground you can't change direction until you come down. Similar with jumping for other reasons, unless you have contact with your opponent you're risking being left exposed if they manage to evade the attack.

Sometimes jumps are to strengthen the legs so that when in application you go to lift the person for a throw you can support their weight for the tenths of a second it takes between loading and dumping, depending on the throw in question.


Mick

From what I have observed jumping kicks really only apply effectively to semi and full contact styles for that reason. You can get a lot more height and power, plus cover distance and add another dimension to your kicks, but if all you're touching is air this effect is reduced.

Yes.. except I once had someone do a jumping kick at me during sparring. Only I moved and gave their leg a little redirection so they kinda didn't land on their feet as they presumably had planned...


Mick

If you are talking about the bog standard jumping front kick sure - as soon as you detect the jump its pretty easy. When you mix it up a bit with roundhouse, jumping spinning kick, or my personal fave jumping back kick it can get a lot more difficult to predict where the attack will be coming from.

Personally I find they use up too much precious energy better applied elsewhere,, but its fun to throw one in on the unsuspecting

We'll just call you Matt-Claude van Damme


Anon

Hey YOU'RE the one in the picture

A lot of the kicks apllied in kung fu in the higher grades are taught as jumping kicks.
These are not your normal standard kicks though. These stem into the 'acrobatic' style kicks like the "butterfly" kick etc.

In the earlier grades however we are taught the standard jumping front kick. And yes, you are totally committed. You muck it up and you're on your face.

In the kids TSD style, the flashy kicks mentioned above, are always used in kumite against them, however since learning to read what was coming next and taking the appropriate action,people are very wary of using these kicks against them now, saying that i had to screw sams head back on the other day ,after he was caught with a spinning back kick, rather them than me.
Nigel

literally, screw his head back on?

looks like he wont be signing gis for a while...

Flying kicks are fun, one I like is leaping like in empi, ut with more horizontal motion, then doing side kick from the knee that's raised. Creates a hell of a lot of ballistic (uncontolled) momentum but is too easy to miss the target.

A sensei used to use a hopping front kick against me which worked great...

My two cents - a piece of advice about learning empi
The jump, it would seem, is a bit like learning to ride a bike, once you've learned to do it properly it's hard to forget.
But when learning, if you're having trouble with the jump and have to practise, do it on mats or on grass - NOT on wood or concrete. can really stuff up your heels when landing so many times.
Yes, i learned this the hard way.

or practise it with good quality running shoes to take some of the shock for you...

I really feel for the guys who do 1.5 hours of kata at NAS training, I am not looking forward to that.

Then dont do it

Any reason why Deano?

Well, unfortunately a lot of NAS people have a certain 'attitude' about them that comes from being told how great they are.

We did nearly 1.5 hours of kata last class.... course it wasn't all just practicing the form. Wasn't even all the same kata. Kinda jumped around a bit...


Mick

well we practised the form of one kata about 2 times...... the rest wasnt practise.... more along the lines of analisys...


was fun

and made more sense

Was it only about twice? It seemed like more... Never mind, I was trying to make particular points - those couple of things I emphasized and repeated - more than just repetition of the form. Those things which relate to movement cut across all kata.


Mick

I hated performing the jump in Heian Godan drrr! Heian Godan was not my favourite kata, I hate jumping high in the air, I am scared of being up high and yet I have done absailing on a face cliff in Dartmoor, Devon three years ago so good that people thought I was a pro!.

I swear you need to be as light as a swallow to have any chance of making that jump look halfway decent.

a tip to make it look good - dont worry about actual height, just lift the legs more. gives the illusion of height without the effort

Is there any other jumps (kata etc) in the shotokan syllubus, I think I need to be forwarned!
I also know that in some kata and other movements in the shotokan syllubus you have to jump and turn around something like a certain amount of degrees all at the same time!!!, now that makes me feel very scared at grading I know that I would need to make it look good too!!

Emma

Yes you will have to endure the learning and practice of some quite awesome kata jumps in shotokan.



JC

Kanku Sho is the only other kata I know of that has a jump, but we dont do that many shotokan katas....

Falling over whilst doing the empi jump is a bad thing.....

The one mick does in the first post is from a version of Pinan Godan. Me and my knees are kinda glad he teaches the non jumpy one

There is a trick to the jump It's really not that hard.


Mick

Get someone else to do it for you then pick up where they left off?

I think gkr Kanku dai (prob got the kata wrong but that's the one I think it is) has a kind of jumping front kick in it.

Just had a thought- Is there a kata or movements etc in any karate syllubus were the most jumps are performed?.

Yes it is Kanku Dai and yes GKR has it's variation. GKR has altered the 2 level jumping front kicks to be performed as a tobi mae geri (which is essentially a jumping front kick).

JC

Any particular rationale for this change that you know of?

Mike

I'm honestly not sure Mike. It partially defeats the intent of the dual-kick from Kanku Dai in many ways. I guess like most things GKR it was meant to be a simplication, though as usual perhaps creates more problems in its simplifaction than was worth it. Either way my guess is that a tobi mae geri was thought of as an easier kicking technique to execute. Having said that, the execution of the jumping front kick still holds sufficiently in the scheme of things.

JC

What kicks are used traditionally?

Is that a jumping kick performed with the rear leg? Or more of a flying kick performed with the lead leg? If its the latter I think I'd find the more traditional nidangeri easier myself.

Brad, the 'original' is to do a front kick with the right leg then, while the right leg is still in the air, do a higher left front kick. It feels a bit like you're stepping over a box that isn't there.

Mike

Yes Mike.... It's performed kinda like that.... but instead of kicking with the right leg you just 'step on the box' with the right leg then kick with the left...

So the first kick isn't really a kick as such; it's just used to elevate you a little for when the second kick comes through?

The first bit is still a kick, the stepping on a box thing is just used to give people an idea of what it feels like when you first start trying to do it. However, depending on the situation, you may realise that it is unlikely to hit home but it can still be used as a feint and/or to achieve greater distance or height on the second kick.

Mike

Ah... I've seen pictures of Bruce Lee doing that maneuvour.

I found a site with a load of different kata videos to watch and some were fantastic. The one I like the most is 'Heian Godan'. It has a jump in it and is a very short kata. I was wondering if I should learn it for some veriaty. However, I'm in GKR and was wondering , because its not on their syllabus, if maybe it would be frowned upon. Anyone in GKR know where I stand with this?? Or should I just learn the GKR kata's


When folk talk about the "understanding of a kata". Is that the bunkai? I know the bunkai is the application of the moves but some people refare to the understanding as though its something other than the knowing

This might be worth a thread of its own... We`ll see where it goes...
IMO I don't think there`s any real harm in learning kata that falls outside the styles syllabus, but it won't count towards your future grading....
... I've done it myself when Mick ( Sionnagh ) taught me the goju version of Saifa, and also one of his Bo kata.
He also taught me his own ( I`m sure ) version of Empi, sadly I was unable to attain the desired lift to make it look anywhere as good as his was!

As for the "Understanding" of kata, well thats a biggie. We could mean a basic understanding of the pattern, maybe a few applications. Or something a whole lot more technical.

Personally I cant see any harm in learning a kata outside the GKR syllabus. I know the actual kata wont help me advance in my grades, yet I think it will help me in my own development.

But that said, I dont want to upset the apple-cart. Any more opinions from the forum readers...??

We progress from the basic pattern of Taikyoku through the Pinan kata to Bassai Dai because they're sorta related and so fit together much better than jumping around randomly...

If students want to learn other kata that's up to them but they won't count towards grading. There is some flexibility in the system to substitute different kata though...

You'll probably find a range of attitudes across different clubs from not minding students learning other kata, to discouraging the practice, to outright telling them they're not allowed to. Of course some clubs also tell students they're not allowed to train with other clubs or not allowed to do other styles of MA at the same time, or not allowed to eat icecream on a Tuesday if the date ends in a "2". Be careful of such things, these clubs can be cultish and so discourage asking questions particularly those which begin with "Why...?"

It can also be an interesting exercise (later, not now) to compare how different schools of karate do the same kata and in the process look at what is the same, what is almost the same and what is totally different. And think about why...


Mick

p.s. the comments between "icecream" and "Why...?" should be read with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Unless you have an actual icecream.

I like that you are thinking about expanding your knowledge.
I think its great you are doing this at such an early stage of your training (5 months did you say? Took me years!). Too many just accept what they are told and never query it. This is not having a go, so please nobody jumpy jump jump jump on me - but gkr only takes things to a certain level of understanding and leaves it there for the rest of the grades up to uber-dan or whatever. Im sure most practitioners would agree with that. Many have posted that that is all they want and are very happy with it and thats great - however, it seems that it's not right for you. Have a look around, do some reading, buy some of Sam and Vicki's books/dvds . You want more from your karate, and it gets worse from here - trust me!

Hope you find someone who can teach it to you

I can see your point on some clubs being 'cultish', Sionnagh. There is no fear of me venturing into the realms of stupidity, I'm the sort that likes to know the in's and out's of everything. I want to do karate. and as I learn how to do it, I want to know why its done like such. But no one dictates to me any sort of lifestyle (there was plenty of that from a visit off the Jesus Army when I was in my early twenties).


Matt, your very encouraging, thank you. In about four days I'll have been doing karate for six months.
I finally mastered Bassai Dai and now I'm on with Seiunchin, Some brilliant moves in there. However, my sumo stance needs some major working on.

What I tend to do is video my willing Sensei (on my mobile phone) doing the kata and then I can copy bit by bit at home. Any questions, I just ask him when I next see him.

All these katas under my low-grade belt are then practiced usually daily and when I need them I should be good at them.

Anyone Know whats after Seiunchin? I hope its Empi.

Man, that must put some pressure on your instructor to actually do the kata properly. Wouldn't want poor quality caught out on video. =/

Yah, 'tis the mighty Empi next, with the Jumpy jump jump jump! =O