Been watching a few other styles and talking to some students. I may be wrong but Ive drawn a conclusion which Id be interested in your opinions of.

Karate is very blocking oriented. We train to block a technique and if one gets through then thats a point, acknowledged etc etc. The focus when sparring seems to be solely on getting a technique in. We consider some techniques like a kick to the head to be automatically devastating and fight ending when in fact, they may glance off or not have any real power at all.

Styles like Boxing, Muay Thai, Taekwondo etc appear more focused on being able to take a hit (because its going to happen) recover and counter. Much more emphasis on conditioning. Also they are taught not simply to block, but evade the attack, whereas the karate footwork drills I've done are offensive rather than defensive.

So - in a street situation wouldnt it be better to be taught to evade attack and take a hit than rely on solely blocking, and is the emphasis on landing one punch which really may not be that effective lulling us into wrongly thinking we can defend ourselves?

Sounds reasonable to me.Why block when you can get out of the way?From my experience I've found most kicks and punches we use in karate are very ineffective.They look good but don't have any real impact.Plenty of accidental contact is made during tournaments but people are very rarely carried out on stretchers.Karateka are conditioned to pulling back a strike before it has any real impact on the body and this condioning is carried over into real situations.Hitting the human body with impact isn't as easy as it sounds and using a punch bag isn't the best way.The best feedback is from hitting a training partner and seeing how his body reacts to strikes.The partner also learns how to absorb strikes when practicing in this manner.The Systema approach is to remain relaxed and loose,ride the blows and breath properly.This article by top practioner Jim King explains how to take strikes.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/vie...=122&highlight=

I think it depends what clubs you have looked at. Which probably pretty much covers most clubs anyway.

What you describe is basically sport karate. While there is nothing wrong with sport karate there is a problem if the group practices sport karate but touts it as teaching self defence.

AFAIK when karate was introduced to the general public it was modified to make it safer to teach to children in a mass-teaching format. (summarised from an article on Boz' site) Target areas were changed so that punches were aimed to the body instead of the head, and kicks were aimed at the body instead of the knees and groin. So in a sense it is a bit strange to promote the athletic nature of the sport form by encouraging high kicks to the head. Certainly I have never heard anyone of note say that doing this in a real situation is anything but inviting disaster.

So what is the answer? I don't know. In time I'm sure there will be more teachers who know and teach the good evolutionary parts of modern karate alongside the effective techniques from original karate. But until then...?


Mick

The effectiveness of one's application of karate depends on the manner in which one is taught the art and what one does with it. Karateka are not really block orientated in kumite, that might be how some are taught but certainly not all. The focus in kumite should be about landing effective blows and avoiding those of the opponent. Kata appears to be block orientated but that is because the role of kata as a training tool is not understood so kata is taught more as performance art.

A punch or kick to the head can be devastating but if one hasn't trained to transmit strong impact then it can be a problem out of the non-contact arena. As far as taking a hit, those that train in full contact take serious risks just from the training, let alone their competitions. Karate teachers should teach evasion and how to ride a punch as well but again they can only teach what they know. If they are inexperienced and taught by the inexperienced then the end result is a watered down system.

There are a number of situations that occur outside the dojo. There are surprise attacks where the king hit can leave one unconscious straight up. The only protection against this is training to be aware of where one is and what is going on around us. One may be assaulted verbally which can lead to a physical confrontation. How one has trained in the dojo in sparring will have an influence on how one can manage such a duel. Then there are domestic type situations where one might be seized at close range and the appropriate response is not to strike but to overpower and restrain the attacker.

I can't see why karate can not be taught to respond to these types of situations as well as provide a safe competition framework and healthy exercise for its adherents.

i agree that karate could teach more evasive action, but i also credit karate with giving me the confidense to stand and believe i WILL block whatever is thrown.

like i have said before i was every lucky to have some extremely good teachers that drilled me continually in sparing about moveing my feet and not just standing in front or going straight back blocking, hence i use alot of sideways blocks to open up an oponent.

at burridge i have learnt (the hard way on accassions) that to stand and try and block a axe or back kick isn't the smartest thing to do. the axe kick forget the block move or get hurt. you move out the way and stay safe.

i also think karate could teach people how to cover up more when it gets into a boxing type thing, where your oponent has his/her head on your chest. and abit of contact for the people that want it in sparing would help to. i know some of my sparing parteners and i use to use moderate contact everywhere except the front of the face, and it sure made you cover up abit more than the usual karate defense.

the most dissapionting thing to me about karate is there is no ground work, and if you think about it where do most fights end up. or for the females the rapes ect you are on the ground not standing up, it's ok to say yell and run but if there is no one to hear you yell, and you cann't get away to run in three words YOUR IN TROUBLE. i had a better discriptive wording for it but not on a kiddy channel

Apologies - I should have specified 'GKR' rather than 'karate'.

bah stick with karate matt you where right the first time.

Boz stated:
"
This is the way I was taught and I'm guessing you were too Bob.
Jiyu kumite in the olden days used to be rough...and if you couldn't learn how to ride a punch to lessen the impact you spent half the lesson alseep.
Sabaki and riding a strike have gotten me out of trouble a few times in self defense situations.....it's how I teach now...Sabaki to all students..how to defend and attack on angles.
Riding a strike though...I only teach that to a handful Bob...insurance issues

Showed some basic drills based on evading and countering instead of the usual block-and-counter tonight. I'm thinking it was a first for most of them


Mick

Fights usually only end up on the ground if:
a) the person is bigger and using there weight to beat you.
B) the person has some training in ground fighting
c) you are unconcious or been knocked to the ground and getting the **** kicked out of you.

So if we can avoid being taken down, and have been trained well should be able to hold our own in a real sd situation.

I agree...there is no way I want to be rolling around on the ground with some body.
Within Karate there are numerous takedown,throws,sweeps and rakes contained within it's historical database...the kata.
These will(with practice) get the attacker to the ground....with no need for you to join them.
No martial art is perfect....but the variety of techniques contained within karate has amazed me for well over 30 years. :thumbgrin:

Perhaps, but it is always nice to do a little groundwork to round things out. Even in kumite it's not nice to be swept and hit the ground like a sack of sh*t so even little things like breakfalls and basic rolls can help you get up that little bit quicker. IMO anyway.


Mick

Well I'll tell ya Mick...at my age...I appreciate the fact that Ukemi(breakfalls) are not part of the general karate.
Breakfall would take on a whole new meaning ...OUCH..there goes tha hip.

I'm sure if they were doing practice with breakfalls they'd let you use a wuss mat


Anon

Even if you did fall on the 'wussmat', it can still hurt. Just depends how you fall.

Still, I think there are definite advantages to learning how to fall. For one thing it means that you get to practice a few throws and whatnot, and your partner gets to practice them on you in turn.
For another, becoming accustomed to falling and/or being thrown reduces the disorientation normally associated with it which means you are in a mental state enabling you to regain your feet more quickly.
And thirdly, I have seen too many students who have been swept in sparring, landed hard and had their head go crack on the floor resulting in some cases with concussions. IMO learning to fall would greatly reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening.


Mick

I got swept during senior training last week Mick and only knowing how to Ukemi saved my skull.
The idiot swept both feet ffs.

Hi, question for Ozeshin, assuming you wern't taken from behind, how did you manage to get both feet swept? I'm trying to picture a normal sparring session within GKR.

I know how to do it and used it effectivly in an actual street fight against a skin head boxer. They were in a typical boxers stance, feet approx 1/2 metre apart with their left slightly in front of right. I suddenly dropped down on left leg and swung right leg in round house fashion just below knee hight taking both legs. This is where self defence sports karate style ends, but shotokan or other real karate styles are only getting to the real scoring action. I simple continued the turn thro 180 deg, right foot in to left, left rises up continue the turn and drive left heel into the rib cage.

The fight didn't end there as I still had 2 of his mates intent on belting me.

Back to the topic, Karate training can provide some techniques that in some situations can provide self defence. The training has to be similar to an actual attack and build up slowly to high speed and full intensity. NOTE: strikes are pulled or directed to just miss ones training partner.

Wuss mats are very useful for learning on, but once the falls and throws are quick, fluid and strong, some hard floor training is needed as Mick pointed out. That fact alone has saved me on several occassions, the ability to instantly get up or keep going when the wind has been knocked out.

I know that most people will never get into the situations I did in my late teens, early 20's but even so I was not looking for fights. That happens at discos, night clubs or if one gets caught by rampaging thugs. And that was 30 years ago!

To my way of thinking a fasle sense of self defence ability is a far greater liability that knowing one has nothing but to scream and run.

An interesting international study of victims of personal attack pointed out that those who did fight back received fewer injuries and recovered quicker both physically and mentally that those who were submisive or pleaded with the attacker not to hurt them. (sorry but I can't remember the reference.)

It pointed out that physical assault only starts within 10 seconds of the initial confrontation, after that it's not common. Also once started it doesn't stop until iether the attacker is beaten off or the victim is badly injured/dead.

The best advice I had was to "stay calm, s**t bricks on the inside but stay calm"

Zen Warrior

Well there are several techniques which could be used in sparring if people knew how to fall. Otherwise the risk is too great. Things like catching a kick and sweeping the supporting leg can be done to the unwary. Even sweeping as the person steps forward after dropping the foot straight down after a sloppy kick can come as a total shock and there's no warning for them to think about landing on the floor. It has to become a trained response, which means learning and practicing.


Mick

How is it possible to practice this technique if




?

He watched the way I bounce during sparring and timed it wonderfully for a blue belt.
As I return to my short fighting stance, after each technique, there's a few seconds where my feet tend to drift a bit close to each other.
He saw this and waited....the bugga

Hey OzeShiN

Correct me if I am wrong but I was told that only Red Belt and above are allowed to sweep?
Not saying it's a crime, just quoting several senseis I train under.

it's brown belt here in WA...

Ok..
#1:Yes..it's brown belt
#2: it was during senior training.
#3: sweeping both feet during kumite is probably one of the biggest no-no's you can do.
It's just plain rude and shocking manners.
Espescially considering that I was a way higher grade than him.
If I had then gotten up and raised the level of "controlled" contact during the remainder of our match...guess who would've gotten into trouble from the RM...ME...!!!

Hi Wanderer,

sweeping and throwing techniques are practiced as I explained, only the final strike is pulled back. In judo and ju-jitsu throws, locks, holds are practiced with controll so one doesn't break bones in ones training partner.

The key word is control and the key attitude is respect.

Zen Warrior

Was just wondering how you perform a throw that way. I understand the respect element, but by the nature of a throw how can you do it so that 1. it is effective self defence practice, and 2. you dont damage your partner.

By throwing gently


Mick