Hello all
Just wondering if anyone else feels a bit spooked by sparring.
Being a bit new at sparring I get a bit concerned about being hit.
What should I do if someone I am sparring is hitting me or not very controlled?

Hello Rebecca,
First let me say to our forum.

GKR students start sparring a lot earlier than a lot of styles, and sometimes the control just isnt there. Sometimes excessive contact is a result of inexperience, and sometimes it is due to the other person being a bit full on.

You should initially request they refrain from contact. They should respect this and oblige. At early grades all sparring should be slow and controlled. If it continues, see your instructor.

I tell all my students that they do not have to spar anyone they feel uncomfortable sparring, and if they are actually getting hit (as happened to some students in a grading) to refuse to continue. I would back them in any such incidence and am sure your sensei would do the same.

Hi Rebecca...

nice to see you here... :thumbwink:

i agree with what matt said.
most importantly, do NOT hesitate to speak to your sensei...
he or she is there to help and keep you safe from injury during your training...


so...
tell us a bit about yourself...

I would add, make sure you speak to your sensei.

It may just be a case of poor control and something the other person needs to work on, but unfortunately there are some out there who feel the urge to get excessive especially with less experienced students simply because they are able to "take them".

On the up side, we do have a few black belts from other styles in gkr who have have someone attempt to put them on the receiving end of such sparring. With obvious effect, and not the intended one. lol I love that story having seen one of them first-hand.

But back to the topic, tell your sensei because often the only way we can find out and do something is to be told about it. One complaint may be an isolated incident and even just someone's perception of what is too much but still requires the student being spoken to.
But more than one definitely needs looking into.


Mick

I would agree with everything that has been said above.

I would add that sparring is not compulsory and there is nothing wrong in taking your time before you wish to start sparring.

I do spar as it is part of the training requirment for senseis but I must admit If I had to place in order of preference the things I like doing best in a normal class it would be as follows.
1: Kata
2: Fundamentals (basics)
3: Self Defence
4: Sparring

Call me a kata guy

The only time you have to start sparring is when you are going for your Brown Belt (3rd kyu) or above. It is however good to start practicing a little earlier than the week before your brown belt grading.

I would have to agree with that:

I tell my students who don't want to spar that they should begin by green belt. And to ask their partner to take it easy on them. There have been cases where a student's saifa has not been quite good enough to grade to blue, and they have been told they need to spar. Not much help then if they have never sparred before, or don't even have mitts & pads!

Also I won't send anyone for grading to red if they won't spar in class. Having mixed classes means that sometimes you have to spar kids and junior grades - I had one student who decided not to spar in class because they "don't learn anything" sparring those student groups, but they wanted extra sparring tuition after class!

You should be able to guess what I told them. Anyways, they are still on blue belt and have been for over 12 months now.


Mick

also...
if you are REALLY unsure about your sparring you might want to ask your sensei to go through some more advanced one step sparring techniques before getting into the real thing. and once you feel comfortable with that kind of thing you may be able to request some one on one simple sparring with your sensei or a trusted higher graded student that is aware of your fear...

please let us know how you go....

hi rebecca

i know EXACTLY how you feel.
i didnt start sparring til a few weeks ago (i couldnt afford to buy my mitts and pads)
even though i was an orange belt and i was up against a yellow belt to start with i was still petrified.
i just explained to the other student that this was my first time and he said it was his first time too.
we had something in common and we just went really slowly.
the senseis were just near us watching anyway so i felt safe knowing that.

most students ive come across are willing to help you as much as they want help from you

still...
...watch out for those that think they are better than you - they will try to prove it.

Sadly as you advance through the grades you will find less people willing to help you.

There are many people who have learnt some techniques and developed some skill who are reluctant to pass on that knowledge so they can hang onto that advantage when sparring.

But there are also some who will happily teach you their tricks as it pushes them to keep improving. After all, if I teach you my tricks and favourite combinations and how to counter them then I must find some new ones. In the end I gain the most from it by building a larger repertoire of sparring techniques.

Treasure those people who will help you and learn as much as you can from them.


Mick

:thumbwink: Rebecca, to me the kumite/sparring is the culmination of all of our training and the best way to prepare yourself for the possible situation of requiring your Karate skills for self defence. Hopefully of course this will never happen, however if you are threatened, at least you will feel more comfortable "shaping up" to your antagonist and much more able to end the dispute in your favour. At first it can be daunting but as most things Karate, get's much easier the more you do it. Eventually you will no doubt enjoy it and look forward to kumite at the conclusion of the class. Seriously, really! I think the higher the grade of the person you're sparring the better as you will learn more and improve your technique for the future. You will also gain confidence as you "survive" yet another encounter and move onto the next. Another beneficial point is that kumite teaches you discipline in the area of self control - knowing when to hold back and when to let go. The most important thing is that it is FUN so get into it!
Regards, Duncan. :thumbwink:

Thanks everyone
Since posting that I must admit I have started to enjoy sparring a bit more.
I guess it was because I didnt really know what I was doing. The better I get the more I enjoy it!
Sionnagh I have seen what you are getting at, but hope I dont come across too many of those people.

(PS - ozlink, I like kata best also )

thanks again all.
I'll try to get back here more often!

I would just add that kumite is optional up to brown belt, even at gradings.

As for higher grades who won't share their techniques, what fools! I give everything to my students and fellow senseis. Every new trick, every little shoulder twitch and fake, every possile way to become smarter faster and more effective. And it's not just because I want them to be all that they can be, oh no. I'll tell you why, because I'm pretty good at kumite, and if I make them very good, I have to work harder to stay ahead. The better they get, the more I have to learn and adapt to keep my edge. I have some awesome students; a couple of boys who can do the splits, a 16 year old who can do a round kick 7 foot 6 off the floorwithout lifting his other heel off the floor (Jay shaw - he's on the first page of my web site if you wanna see him www.gkrkarate.org), and a great women called Jane who's tall and has the fastest punches you ever saw. I love it! I hold nothing back from them. I'd move the world for my students if I could, but every little thing I give them, I get back a bigger benefit.

So, if you wanna keep your best combinations to yourself, go ahead. You'll only have yourself to blame if you don't know how to defeat them when they're used on you in tournament!

Hi Matb

My philosophy also. Many of the line drills and partner exercises I do in my class centre around my favourite sparring techniques and combos, and how to counter them.

Like you say by teaching others your secrets it pushes you to keep developing thus expanding your repertoir. It you keep things to yourself and don't share you will not develop or expand your range anywhere near the same extent.


Mick

For sure. My ultimate objective is to master every technique, fake and combo. Then I can concentrate on the strategy not the physical moves.

Personally I wonder if I will EVER be able to spar like higher belts do...
every session is just me getting hammered.

hi guys,

my opinion in sparring is that if you want to improve ask the people that are better than you to give you some pointers on things that you can improve.
Like most people have already said i also give away any combinations or tactics in kumite that i learn, i like the idea of making people as good as they can be.

Ian :thumbwink:

Personally I don't see any point in hammering someone just because you can.
Unless it is for a specific reason, it should be enough to apply the pressure and keep it on to make them work at it.
There is also room to back right off, explain something and let them try it before resuming.

If I am working on a new strategy, I will hold it in the back of my mind eg thinking "the next time they kick mawashi geri with that leg I will try to do..." and just deal with everything else as it comes.


Mick

Why are we to spar after grading to yellow belt? Do we have to spar for the grading?

Second question: when we're in close distance, are we allowed to do front kick JUST to push the opponent?

Third : During a sparring tourney, is it possible/allowed to score 2 ippons in one combo?

Hi MYSRH

No

Yes

No



Ok further explanation:
1. Yellow belt is the line drawn where you become permitted to spar if you choose. You do not have to spar until attempting brown belt, but it would be reasonably foolish to wait until you reach red belt before starting to spar for what I think are fairly obvious reasons.

2. A front kick which pushes the opponent is also known as a thrusting kick, or kekomi for those who want to know the japanese name. As opposed to a keage (snap kick).
My opinion is that the distance doesn't matter as long as you don't kick below the belt and nobody gets injured. Of course sparring should also be non-contact so this technique becomes also an issue of relative grades of sparring partners. If you are sparring a higher grade and do this it could not only be seen as disrespectful (depending on the attitude of the person) but also invite them to up the tempo of the sparring beyond what you are able to handle. If you do it to a lower grade it may be also be seen as disrepectful as well as intimidating them.

3. In tournament, scoring an ippon is rare enough. Only certain techniques will score an ippon and only if the attack is undefended. A simple guard for e.g. a round kick to the head could reduce the award from ippon to waza ari.

These are just short answers BTW.


Mick

Wow thanks for that, very informative. Now about the tourney stuff, if any chance I can move to the side of the opponent body give a punch to the ribs followed by a mawashi geri to the back, will that consider as one ippon only?

Good question. There might be someone else who can answer this better, but generally I have only seen an ippon awarded for a strike to the back when the opponent has been spun around eg after having a kick blocked strong enough to turn them.

Possibly a mawashi geri to the back may score you an ippon provided it is a clean technique but it would have to follow very closely behind the strike to the ribs or the ref may call yame and award a waza ari for that. Even if you don't kiai on the first strike, the ref may still call yame and then advise you that you must kiai. It depends on which division you are in and also on the ref in your ring.

Opinions, anyone?


Mick

Like Mick said it depends on the ref and division, but strictly under the rules if both techniques conform to the rules of an effective technique, then it should be scored as an ippon.

As for ippons being rare, they arn't often awarded but it was my understanding fomr the rules and s.s gavin that you should always look to score an ippon first then if not award the wazari.

my 2 cents
Ian :thumbwink:

Also you wouldn't want to pass up opportunities to score techniques simply because you want to score an ippon.

I have often seen people going for head-high kicks because they have been told you can score an ippon, especially in the kids divs, and missed a number of other openings.


Mick

Very true, what i always try and impart on students is that when you are sparring even in tournament you should attack as if its real life, use what will be most effective, not what will score best.

Ian

Very good advice, I'll keep that in mind.

ANother question, is there any advantage staying low to the ground during sparring? (ie. using sumo stance or long stance) Or it's more like disadvantage because the opponent has more open space to hit?

Good question. I normally spar in a somewhat-deeper-than-short-stance. But not an overly long stance.

You want width and depth of stance for stability, but the trade-off is in mobility. I'd say no more than 1.5 shoulder-widths in depth of your stance and no less than 1 SW. Keep the weight on the balls of your feet but don't lift your heels off the ground.

If you increase the length of your stance slightly you can increase your distance from your opponent while still keeping them in range.


Mick

You can look for tell-tale signs of an opponent's attack from their stance, especially if it's too low or too long. The reason for this, is that they have to make some other initial move before they get into action for the attack - telegraphing. Your peripheral vision will normally pick this extra movement, giving you a split-second advantage.

Example: opponent is in a low Zenkutsu Dachi and wishes to Mawashi Geri (target can be any level - head, body, low) and the first thing they have to do is ... raise their body level a fraction to get themselves turning properly for the kick.

Another example: same stance, and they wish to Gyaku Zuki Jodan level - same sort of deal.

A deceptively simple Kamae postion gives away very little, whilst still allowing you every freedom of movement you could wish for. Mick's explanation of his stance sounds pretty-damn-good ... just remember to have the arms in a suitable position and you're set!

Craig.

I prefer to keep moving on my feet - not exactly bouncing, but sort of like you see boxers do. It not only helps minimise any telegraphing but I find makes techniques faster than trying to launch from standstill

(yes - I am enjoying it a LOT more now )

I find that people who bounce or constantly shift their weight from one foot to the other become vulnerable at those points where they are mid-bounce and can't move quickly if attacked at that moment.

The ones who bounce can potentially be targeted any time between bounces and the ones who rock back and forth can find it difficult to both attack and defend when going back.

When someone attacks they must necessarily open themselves to an attack in the process, and it can be a big opening if they don't act to minimise it.

We talk about looking for openings, creating openings but I also look for the attack as being an opening itself.


Mick

I found the way sensai Bob described sparring, be light on your feet, but not bouncing, have strong guard, but not fixed, use attack as defense, defend as attack.

It was more involved then that but very hard to explain again.

Ian

Interesting to see Senior Sensei Gavin sparring at the black belt grading. That is exactly what I had in mind. He shuffled and (dare I say it) "bounced" a lot. Well not really bounced but was always moving. Y'know what i mean

The problem is it is very energy sapping. Need to work on fitness!

Hi All.

During sparring I tend to be a stalker rather than a submissive. This varies depending upon the opponent. One of the things that affects this is someone's "bouncyness" so to speak. As mentioned above, someone bouncing alot is not often in a stable position to strike or defend. It is also easier to see their rythm and time your strike to it as a change of motion- eg strike- requires feet to land (generally) etc. It is usually more difficult to spar someone who can change their sparring style from static, to explosive, to mobile to etc. This person is less predictable and their fakes become more effective.

At times, one can tend to play the submissive role to allow the opponent to "think" they are in control, and then strike once the opponent has been set up into the position required.

These aren't new strategies or anything, but take a lot of practise to have control over in a sparring/ fight situation.

Above all tho- keep having fun.

Cheers

Mick

The way bouncing was described to me by Shihan is that one leg is always syable and on the balls of your feet. Sort of a modified cat stance. As with bouncing being energy zapping, it is only that if you allow yourself to be tense if you are relaxed you can bounce for hours, most state teams will attest to this.

Bouncing in any form can provide an opening for the other person, whether it is bouncing up and down, back and forth or just a shifting of the weight from one foot to the other.

Most people settle into a pattern or a rhythm, all that can be required to strike into an opening this creates is timing.

If they bounce up and down, as they begin the upward motion their weight is moving up, centre of gravity raises and reduces mobility, as it is coming down they can often be preparing for the next push upward.

If they bounce back and forth, as they are going back they are often preparing to come forward again, an attack at this point can cause them to want to move in another direction to forward which creates a delay in their being able to change direction. As they come forward a similar effect can be produced, if they are not attacking with the forward movement.


Mick

omega - what you say here is interesting.

at my kung fu school we are not allowed to spar until the 5th level, BUT we are taught a lot of useful sparring skills beforehand such as shuffling forwards and backwards, retreating, and other great ways of maneuvering during a sparring match.

one of the things we are taught is NOT to use a cat stance or even a modified cat stance.
it gives off signs of not being a confident sparrer and limits yor ability to retreat if need be
it also signals to your oponent that you're about to kick

we are taught to "bounce" occassionally without creating a rhythm but use attack and retreat movements with our feet constantly (ie, moveing slightly back and forth constantly in no particular pattern)

*edit*
we are also taught to move sideways and circular etc
pretty much use your feet to put your oponent off - confuse them

I don't really have much to add to that which has already been discussed (I just promised Matt and Susan that I would start to drop on the forum).

Re the bouncing debate: I tend to think that it doesn't matter too much as long as you are not flat footed. Develop your own style and use whatever works for you. I tend not to bounce as it makes me a bit more vunerable to being swept.

Re the original post: If your not enjoying sparring with a particular person then its probably their fault - not yours.

Cheers
Rowds

I saw someone bounce the other day.

But that was cos I swept them but as I did it they brought their feet together and I collected both feet.

Bounce bounce bounce on the ground.


Mick

About the bouncing thing again.

I have recently been taking note on a lot of peoples sparring techniques.

A lot of people do bounce in one form or another.
A lot of people keep maneuverable by remaining on the balls of their feet and in a low stance.
A lot of people take a cat stance type pose.
A lot of people spar in a short back leaning stance style.

No matter which way I was watching the person using the style seemed comfortable with it and had obviously adapted it to their own benefit.

Saying that, I will also add that in all of these cases the person remaining on the balls of their feet seemed to have the quickest footwork and 'scored' more techniques than any of the others.

I also noticed that those bouncing a little formed a rythm in bouncing and were easily 'read' and tended to be "walked over".
Some people, however, had developed a rather quick, light and confusing 'bounce' that gave them an advantage by confusing their oponent as they had no idea what their feet were doing and didnt concentrate on anything but the footwork.

Those using a flat footed kokutsu dachi type stance where hips and legs were facing outwards (instead of forwards) seemed to be slow, yet very steady on their feet.

The cat stance method allowed the person to sit back and be 'relaxed' so they could "wait" for an advance and strike at a vital moment. retreating was a difficult point here though.

It all depends on the type of person you are sparring really.

You may need to use any or all of these sparring methods one day.
I say practice them all.

Anyone got any tips to help smaller people sparring with much taller people, getting around the much greater arm and leg reach?

get in close quickly and dont let them use the legs. You'll find tall people often have trouble defending against lower strikes (lol - like us shorties have a choice in the matter) - and you can get one in under their guard.

Its a challenge thats for sure, but I dont have a problem beating Rowds any more

Thanks Matt! I find the getting in close in the first place too much of a challenge sometimes. Especially with the tall guys that just hold their arm out straight in front like a battering ram - you know the one's (not all) that really don't want to teach you anything, just want to prove how big people have an advantage over little.

Need to be fast.. and faster.. but not furious
I'm 160 cm tall. For me height doesn't bother me anymore. You need to develop your mind attitude also your defense must be really strong, strong defense for me means... refer to the first line .

Also, attacking first may put myself in disadvantage if I don't improvise the techniques, so counter-attacking may be better option. Another good technique is to put your defense as your offense... YUMMY!!!

One question, I've been using my leg to block kick, so it'll look like I'm kicking below the belt, but in fact I counter my opponent's hip or knee when they're about to kick and I push it. Is this allowed? Or it'll be considered as physical contact?

This is something that gives me the whoops too.
a good leg block is a damned effective defensive technique, but I have been called for it as a low kick so many times I've lost count.

what are you supposed to do - argue with the ref? nah - didnt think so

Thanks MYSRH. I think it's my 'mind attitude', as you put it. As soon as I know I'm up against someone nearly a foot taller I automatically think I don't have a chance.
I'm trying to think differently, truly I am

Small people in general are faster, even if it's only a fraction, it's still faster, ya?

Matt, how about if I block with my leg but I only raise the leg and not fully extended, would you still think it's a kick? SO I use my leg as a wall to stop incoming attack.

Coz really, I've been using it for last couple weeks, even last sunday training, I used it to block a black belt guy trying to give me a spin kick, ended up he injured his hips where I blocked his kick. But he didn't complain or tell me I'm not allowed to use it. Very effective.... but is it functional??

would I think thats a kick?? hell no....
in fact thats exactly my point - I reckon a good leg block is a great technique where appropriate.....I just find some refs see a knee raised-foot-slightly-forward and automatically assume its an attacking kick.....

bing-bong - "aka - warning kicking below the belt"

Yet a feint below the belt *is* perfectly valid and shouldn't be called unless you contact, right? Like a low mawashi geri?


Mick

What if your feint co-incides with an attack from your opponent and therefore causes contact?
I guess thats just bad luck?

Pretty much just bad luck I guess. I wouldn't know whether they'd stop the bout and warn about contact below the belt or not, I guess too that'd depend on the ref and where abouts below the belt the contact is.

After all, they don't warn about contact if you are doing eg a legitimate mae geri aimed to the stomach and your foot collides with your opponent's knee because they have gone to kick too, do they?


Mick

What I usually do is I anticipate with my leg when I notice my opponent start raiaing his/her leg, even if they don't, I still sometimes raise my leg just for protection in case the opponent want to kick but not kicking.

Also raising the leg is good for taunting too :thumbwink: