im orange belt so i should be workin on saifa yeh? well my sensei says i got it down and has taught me bassa-dai, well i know how it all goes but im still perfecting the moves, is this strange? should i keep on saifa or just drill my way through the kata's?? coz seiunchin looks pretty hot heh

He he... Sionnagh might have something to say on this one.

I'm an orange belt and have only in the last couple of weeks been able to do kata Saifa to my own timing. I've had a few lessons in Bassai Dai and Seiunchin, but as I am not particularly interested in knowing them too well at this stage of my training, I haven't practised them and do not know them all that well.

Personally, I'd prefer to have a deeper understanding of just one kata, rather than know katas far above my grade level. (Remembering Seiunchin is needed for 2nd kyu - for me, at least two and a half years away.)

Kata Saifa is needed for green and blue belt gradings. My Sensei said this week that once you grade to green, it is a huge step forward to blue belt, as "knowing" a kata is not as simple as being able to run through a pattern of moves. As a Blue Belt you are expected to understand the kata to a certain extent (or so I've been told) - certainly not perfectly, as you need Saifa to grade to Shodan, Nidan, etc as well .

Judging from your introductory post, you're a fairly fast progresser (or maybe I'm just slow? ). I guess in the end, your Sensei knows best. See what he thinks.

- Jess

PS - Yeah, Seiunchin does look pretty cool.

malice
welcome to the site...

i wouldnt say it's bad to know bassai dai at this early stage in your training. i learnt it as a new yellow belt.
just concentrate most of your energy on your own grade kata.
there will be plenty of time for bassai dai later on
work on it too much now and you will get bored with it
just remember... bassai dai is going to be your grade kata for at least a year!!!

oh yeah
and as sionnagh will point out, just coz you can do saifa's moves does not mean you know or understand them...

over to you mick

What makes you think I'd have something to say? Some people learn patterns quickly and if all they're interested in is learning the moves that's fine. But what happens when you've learnt the moves to all the kata in the syllabus?


Mick

Mick,

Nothing. I think I wrote that last post a bit badly... tis late...

I don't just want to learn patterns...

well cause at the dojo i train at has only just been opened me an my mate kris are highest grade in the class so i guess our sensei pushes us abit and plus kris is already a black belt in teng gu do so we gotta keep up with each other. also i, almost say practically, knew saifa when i was yellow belt orange tip. plus we can tell he keeps us a little above the class so we can help out cause he's teaching by himself, its kool, he reckon's we should do sensei training when we turn 18 :thumbwink:

With learning it so quick make sure you don't get bored because what do you do once you know all the kata's before time what do you learn then it's cool to become a sensei but make sure its what you want

there is nothing wrong with learning kata early, some people will say you can get bored, well i guess you can if you learn them then think you cann't improve on them. when i was a blue belt i knew alot of the high black belt katas, i learnt them to stop the boredom of gkr classes ie stand in line punch/kick/block/strike ok now a few combo's if you are lucky then onto kata, then if you are really really really lucky sparing :thumbwink: :thumbwink: :thumbwink: :thumbgrin: :thumbgrin:.

so what i did is learn the higher katas then worked on a different one each week this included first kata, i'd pull a number out of a hat to decide what one to work on or someone like matt, ozlink and a few others would point out a fault in one of my katas so that was the one i worked on.

as for understanding katas everyone seems to have their owne idea what each move is for. so i fail to see how on earth you can understand a kata until it goes back to the people made this kata this is what they meant each move to be and what it is for, i see kata simply as a glorified dance routine till then.

ok so maybe i'm not the best person to comment on kata, as i have a deap dislike boardering on hate of them. KATA SUCKS and that's just the way it is .

I learned the pattern of second kata when I was a white belt, saifa when I was an orange tip, and I've learned the first six moves of bassai-dai as a orange belt, and will undoubtedly know the full pattern as a green belt.

This has helped me as I can instantly get to work on understanding my grading kata from the moment I grade, with the pattern in my head.

Remember that you'll never parfect any kata, A sensei once told mehe was still consciously improving his first kata, which is entirely believable.

I've learned that knowing is not understanding, it is easier to build on what you understand than what you know.

What is perfection? Is it the ability to perform the kata with precise to-the-millimetre detail of the prescribed techniques and to-the-microsecond precision of timing?

Or do we "settle" for effectiveness of techniques in application?

As an example, I don't always use a "correct" fist for punching (lazy sod that I am) so my fingers are not tightly closed with the thumb locked across underneath. In the manner that I more commonly punch now I am still striking with the first two knuckles and my wrist is locked straight but the fist is not "perfectly" formed. Yet I can set one of those large heavy bags swinging from a punch. And I can strike out faster.

So which way is better? If indeed one method is overall better than another?


Mick

maybe for you the "wrong" way is the better of the two

and i guess it would be up to an individual to find out what works better for them...

same as is up to the individual to find out which style is right for them

i'm in your corner mick i never lock my thumb in real tight it slows your punches down to much, and if your wrist is locked straight you can still punch through things without hurting yourself

I always find something need to be fixed everytime I do kata, no matter how good or how long I've done it.

The way I think about it is I won't move to next kata until I'm satisfied with it, referring to first line, that means I'm never satisfied. One of the measurement I use is the average scores I get in tournament both GKR and NAS. Others are from friends and also myself.

I'd rather know a few katas but get really in-depth with them, than know lots but not excel in either ones.

just my 2cents

i know afew of my close friends think like myrsh, and to see them do kata is something else. it depends what you want to get out of it, if you want to really know a kata stick to up to your grade one or one above. me i don't get into kata much, so simply getting the pattern and movements to a place i was happy with was easyer to do.

Back when I was an orange belt, I had already learned up to Bassai Dai as well, simply because I could learn the pattern and moves really quickly. I only had to be shown once or twice in the one class and then I had to it set. Well, the basic moves anyway. Knowing later kata, in my mind, is beneficial because once you finally reach the rank where you need to know the kata, you can begin to refine and perfect it for that grade.

Seems to be a recurring theme, that of learning a pattern then refining it and practicing to get it technique-perfect. Then when all the kata in the syllabus have been learnt a level of despondency sets in because there's no more kata to learn. And apart from a small minority nobody seems especially inclined to learn what they're for, or what they movements do.


Mick

I did that. I learnt all the katas and then I got bored because there were no more katas for me to learn. And I can tell you now that I probably wasn't very good at the higher grade katas and I know I didn't know the bunkai.

Anyways now I have forgotten the higher katas and I mainly concentrate on my grade kata and my tournament kata. I still would love to know the higher katas, but I think it's more beneficial for me to perfect or at least try and perfect the lower katas first.

one question emily ann when isn't kata boring (fang has a quiet sniker to himself that turned into a full on belly laugh)

Fang... restrain yourself. Don't be mean.

mick

Seems to be a recurring theme, that of learning a pattern then refining it and practicing to get it technique-perfect. Then when all the kata in the syllabus have been learnt a level of despondency sets in because there's no more kata to learn. And apart from a small minority nobody seems especially inclined to learn what they're for, or what they movements do.



Thats very true mick,within GKR the problem is that its a very good basic style and as such dont really teach the bunkai, many new students havent a clue what Bunkai is,and many GKR experienced karate ka,have no one to help guide them once they realise about bunkai.Sure we can all research ourselves and a few do.However in the western world people pay for lessons and hope to be taught this kind of thing,if you have been lucky enough to find a good teacher then you may get taught.Most people imho dont have the time to research out what the kata do,due to work and family commitments etc, the ones that do are the truly dedicated karate ka for whom karate does become a way of life.This of course applies for many styles not just GKR.

Yep, and there are those who have done some research and know a little. Some of this is shared but only a small part for different reasons - difficulty of explaining in writing, the risk of people just learning selected applications without understanding them and of course because there are some who would memorise a handful of the described applications and then teach it without understanding the principles behind them.


Mick

Hey fang!!! I happen to like kata! I just got bored once there was nothing else to learn.

I agree with being satisfied you are reasonably confident before moving on. Due to grade requirements you have to learn a higher kata periodically, but the emphasis on on yourself to continue refining the old one.

My old style taught a kata as a grading tool. Each grade had its own kata showcasing the basic techniques which were assessable at that level - more a very big combination than a kata. Unfortunately they were seldom practiced after the grade was achieved, even though they all had to be done for black belt assessments.

like i'v stated many many times before if the bunkai, was left alone and was taught as the person that made the kata ment it, then i would have alot more time for kata.

but and this is a big but everone seems to think you can swap and change what the bunkai is or to put it simply to interpret it in your owne way. so i see no way it is needed to get into a kata in a big way when either the moves or bunkia can be changed on a whim.

and i'm ALWAYS nice plus cute lovable hansome and generaly just bloody good B)

We have nearly always practised two kata at the same time, kata for our next grade, and a tournament kata,usually two kata above our grade kata,and we practice every kata we know at least once every day, thats over 20 kata at the moment.
Victoria

Dear Fang,

I don't think the kata should be changed on a whim and it is usually changed by those who view them as exercise routines for rank advancement and competition. At one time students would learn a basic kata for building a karate foundation, and then maybe one or two others. One for training purposes to practise a variety of techniques and another with self defense applications in mind. Today too many kata are taught and too few are studied in any depth.

When you say you don't like kata Fang, what you are really saying is that you don't like not being taught the value of kata as a training tool. If you were shown the purpose andintent in just one kata you would certainly change your opinion I'm sure. In saying that, one doesn't need kata to develop good techniques nor to learn self defense. However it is useful as a mnemonic device when you want to pass a body of knowledge down the line.

Cheers,
Boz

2nd kata techniques unconcsiously come up as my sparring technique, which I didn't realise in the first place, only recently I analysed my moves then found some similarities.

i'm sure i'd change my mind about kata, if it was taught like it was ment to be. but they change moves and then think it is ok to make up what the defense and attacks in the kata really are doing. instead of just taking it like the person that made it up ment it to be.

i do believe kata is useful it teaches you to move your feet, but then again so does dancing which is what kata really is a dance .

Maybe that's why I like it so much.....

Scary vision....imagines Fang doing saifa to a rumba beat...

I won't dance, don't ask me....
Be fair - kata viewed as a dance also teaches focus, timing, co-ordination and awareness of people training with you without being put off by them.
But I guess, some people are kata people, and some are kumite, and some are a bit of both. I will do extra kata on your behalf Fang, if you will do extra sparring for me!

Bearette

Funny you should mention that trickster. I have seen kata done to music many times and in fact at the honbu here we do bits of the kata in the cardio karate class. So you are doing kata to music, although we haven't put any rumba beats in there yet. Something to think about....

hmmm - we got in strife for having music playing.....even only during warm ups

done deal bearette :thumbwink:. but can you do it to the rumba beat plse. i'll spar to the tattoo their forhead beat .

I don't think we're allowed to have music on at a normal karate class. I've seen kata done to music at many parties though, and cardio karate is meant to have music. It's like going to the gym and doing an aerobics class, except it's karate combos.

mmmm wasn't it called something else awhile back. another second for karate.

I don't know of it being called anything else ever...

Kata aerobics? Do you actually use kata you've learned in the style, or just make up whatever?

I only has parts of kata. It's mostly combos that have been put to the music by a sensei. We've only ever once had a full kata in one of the versions.

It is extremely like the aerobics class at the gym. A new version with new songs and new combos comes out every few months or so and we try to have different levels so that everyone from a beginner to a BB finds at challenging.

lolz WHOA i did this ages ago, this shizz-nizzles still goin, well uumm i got my green belt the other day i was stoked about that so now maybe i can say its time for me to properly learn bassa-dai . and i hope i didnt come across as a little know it all, it just felt wierd learning sumthin that isnt for so far away. but i understand now its good to take abit in at lower levels, gives me a taste of whats to come...

well anyhow my sensei tells me i gotta learn saifa as well as him now lolz ( and hes got a smooth saifa ), he says mine is good, but it should be on his par. i need to do it in front of a mirror dammit lolz, i could pick my mistakes or things i should be doing better in a heartbeat... and another thing, i feel like an arse saying this but, ive downloaded the saifa vid from www.gkrkarate.org and the guy whos preforming it is a red belt but his saifa, in my opinion, isnt as good as mine(sorry bro ). so im wondering do they crack down THAT hard at green to blue saifa gradings? or is my sensei just trying to kep me on my toes or maybe keep me from getting lazy or what?

any opinions are appreciated thx

It seems that many clubs have a point where it is a bigger step up to the next grade than for other gradings. Even with a lack of a syllabus GKR is no different in that regard. IMO. Gradings are fairly easy up to green, and it's a bigger step to go from green to blue than it is from orange to green.

You have the same kata being assessed, so what is the difference? IMO there ought to be a basic competence with all techniques since they've all been covered by then. Still, it is a highly subjective thing...


Mick

i kind of feel like im in for the long haul, 5 months till blue, doin pretty much the same stuff ive been doin the last 4 months, just perfecting... i know i shouldnt just worry about belts but i guess im just abit eager to get to the more serious sparring, kata's, techniques n such. it was awsome watchin all the higher grades do sparring against the black belts and sensei paul (the regional manager), mmm so very far

damn im tired

You'll be surprised how close it is.

Green to blue the standard is expected to be better than orange to green. I would guess the standard depends on that of the RM. We regularly get people not passing gradings for a variety of reasons, and the higher the belt the more finicky the assessment.

Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway ) very few people should fail a grading. But only because they oughtn't be there in the first place if they're not ready.

Admittedly there are some people who almost deserve it - the ones that push and nag and moan until the instructor sends them as an object lesson. But often as not when this happens they pass and then they become worse


Mick

Couldnt agree more - but thats not reeeeeeally the point being discussed.

I'll rephrase it to 'the standard for being sent to gradings' gets more finicky each belt

I was astonished when I was sent to my green belt grading - even more astonished when I passed! And blue belt does feel so very far away. I had been doing Saifa for 9 months when I graded, knew it inside out, knew the patterns for 7 kata all together, didn't think there was much to learn before blue.
I think that is one of the major things to learn between 6th and 5th kyu - that you can always learn more. Don't limit yourself by thinking you are "doin pretty much the same stuff ive been doin the last 4 months, just perfecting...", you can do better than that. Maybe someone else can point you towards the things you can get from the time you will spend waiting for blue belt. I don't have words for it. I just know that I had been learning saifa for over a year before I was told by our "kata sensei" that I had nailed it. And I had been a green belt for 4 months.
And I still don't know what it was I did differently, and take every opportunity to repeat that 'nailing' and make it permanent.

Well, I sound like a rambling idiot again, but I love kata. I want everybody, even Fang, to love kata too. I also believe in the links between kata, kumite, and kihon. My kumite is terrible - hopefully by putting more into, thereby getting more out of, my kata, my kumite will improve.

Yeah, alright. Shutting up now.

Bearette

i'm thinking tai bo or some such name .

Billy Blanks is my hero. <---Seriously, he's not. =P

Who's Billy Blanks?

The guy who created Tai Bo