From "Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate no Kata, Dentotekkina Kata to Sono Imi", the chapter on Saifa (my best guess, paraphrased interpretation)...

For Saifa the characters "砕破" are used, from the pronunciation of Fuzhou district in Fujian province of China and can also be written as "Lion method". Certainly, in the kata is seen the gesture to scratch partner with the lion claw, and with the end of the kata one can imagine it seems the lion mouth opens largely. As for kata of Goju Ryu, the time of creation is unknown, but it is thought to have existed for a long time. Master of Naha-te Higashionna Kanryo sensei learned in Fuzhou several which are handed down, concerning the "name of kata" and origin, it is thought that in the future, further investigation will reveal the facts.

As for Saifa, when kata set of Gekisai I, Gekisai II is finished it is the kata to be taught as a fundamental kata of Goju Ryu. Delivering counterattack techniques which take advantage of partner's strength, to develop delivery of techniques and looking in all directions, it clearly assumes a partner there to be a true fighting kata.

This kata is easy to remember and has comparatively short performance time, but when one finds the hip twist difficult, reinforce that expression of the quick movements is necessary and the fact of maintaining repeated practice for teaching the profoundness of depth this kata has, as with this kata it is a distinctive characteristic of all.



Mick

"Lion method"... I like that idea.


And now you've lost me...




Bearette

I was lost from the beginning LOL

The lion claw, is this the arc movement in repeated in the first six moves where the open hand breaks the attacker's grip on the arm (following by ura ken)?

There are many applications for the first few moves, of which breaking the grip and backfisting in the manner of the typical GKR bunkai is perhaps my least favourite.

Many of the goju kata have chinese origins, and often seem to be based on and described as characteristic of different animals - tiger, monkey etc. Probaby Buttercup would know more of this than I.

But you could be right.


Mick

It's interesting (to me) that GKR ranks Saifa as suitable for lower grades students where a number of clubs have it in the syllabus for the senior kyu grades. Perhaps as a performance routine only, because it is relatively short it is considered a low rank kata?

In looking at 3 versions of saifa I have noticed there are some parts which are almost identical between any 2 of the 3 and other parts which are totally different. Or appear different on the surface. But then looking deeper it appears responses to the same types of attacks are presented, albeit more clearly in any one version over the others.


Mick

Sanseru in the GKR kata syllabus is also quite small, but it's right up there as a black belt kata.

It is. And yet it stills seems to be done poorly in many cases. Maybe this is a result of Sanchin being omitted from the syllabus?


Mick

Maybe so.

Bit of Q&A, after the second tetsui to short punch with the step through under tension, should the arm and stance both start and finish at the exact same time?

Cheers

Normally things like that start and finish together..


Mick

Thanx

Saifa Bunkai.........
In GKR the tetsui strike is supposed to be aimed at the top of the head. Why is this? In other styles, the strike is aimed at the bridge of the nose. Surely this would be better? I wouldn`t have thought a blow to the top of the head would inflict much damage.......
....Having said that, I`ve never been hit on the top of my head!

Somebody please hit W16 on top of the head...

/me tries to, but cant reach from the other side of the world

Just been talking to my friend who studied anotomy and physiology at uni, and she doesn't think that a blow to the top of the head would be as effective as a blow to the thinner bones, such as temples, bridge of nose, etc..
In her oppinion, the force would dissapate, and a lot of the force would be lost.
However, perhaps it is meant to slow the person, and allow for easier killing later on???

But personally, if I was whacked on the top of the head, it would be enough for me to leave the other person alone

IMO if you were to strike down on top of someone's head, it would be more painful if you struck the crown instead of just the top of the head. But since the crown is towards the back, how would you reach it?

Perhaps the explanation of striking to the top of the head has been adopted for lack of knowledge otherwise?

Consider... why do you turn? In some variants there is a full turn so that the body faces the rear (or front) while in others the body only turns to side-on. Does this change the bunkai? If so, then why and how?

Is the lifting of the knee when you turn significant? And is there any significance in relation to the direction of the turn and which knee is lifted?

Perhaps another question to consider is what is the attack(s) that the sequence may be responding to...


Mick

turn and block?

Turn and block what?


Mick

attack from behind?

This needs to be clarified. What sort of attack from behind?

Given that firstly you can't defend against an attack you're not aware of then it presupposes that you have some sort of warning, though it may only be recognised in hindsight. The advantage of hindsight is that it goes hand-in-hand with experience and the smarter among us will learn from experience. Banging your head against a wall hurts. But some people do it repetitively. Why? Maybe because it feels good when you stop?

The possible attacks from behind are many and varied. You could be king hit from behind. No warning, no defence. Whup, and you're down and out of it. You could be grabbed by the shoulder, spun around and walloped. You could be approached from behind and taken in a choke or strangle. Lots of things...


Mick

So maybe its not a tetsui but a high block to the front followed by a change in direction to start a new technique.

I dunno. Why not tell me?

Because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. And if you try to force water down his throat there will be a lot of wastage and he may even drown.


Mick

Water the horse slower.

Doesn't matter how slow you go with the watering. If the horse won't drink, it won't drink.

I seem to remember noticing a point on the top of the head in the kyusho section of the bubishi. And given the heads solidness, a soft striking area (such as the part of the hand used in tetsui) would be more appropriate.

Upon a little experimentation a very light blow on the top of the head leaves a bit of pain afterwards. A strong one may be enough to shake the brain. Possibly cause a knock-out.

But then again this doesnt really seem like a "rend"-ing movement does it?

Just a thought

If the original meaning of kata's has mostly been lost, diluted, changed could it be that the head strike used to be in conjuction with a weapon in the hand. I.e. hit with a hilt on the top of the head would hurt?

I know it's unlikely, but we spend a lot of time guessing applications....

you know fanghorn i wouldnt count that option out all together...


in learning how to use the broadsword there are many moves in which the sword is circled around your body then strike downwards (or in any direction really)

the circling of the sword around the body (from over the head as in saifa) is used as a block, to stop another weapon or hand etc from striking you.

no reason why you cant be doing the same thing here

I'd go along with that. No matter how good the warrior was at using his hands, if he didn't know how to use a sword he would be pretty stuffed...

It is important to remember that karate originates from a civil self defence art, and was not for hand-to-hand combat by warriors or soldiers.

Clearly many clubs completely miss the point of application and try to fit things into the exact movements of the kata regardless of how ridiculous it becomes when cold logic is applied, and when the kata may have been changed from the original by an unknown amount by persons who did not understand the purpose to begin with.

Have a look at any of the GojuRyu or GojuKai forms of Saifa, they all (that I have seen) step at 45 in the opening sequences. Moving in a straight line up the centre is a change to the form yet while it does not change the function (except for the upper level folk who create ludicrous applications which by virtue of their position within a club are accepted without question) it does obscure it until the connection is made.

Usually this connection requires external influences to lead to understanding but there seems to be a perpetuation of the attitudes which obstruct gaining access to this information.

To give an example without simply telling the answer, one of the applications of the turn-and-tettsui employs ude garame. Now you can go look this up somewhere like judoinfo.com, but it may still not be clear without hands-on instruction.

People like Mario Borg also trained under Tino Ceberano and I'm reliably informed his Saifa is almost identical to the GKR version except for things like the 45 at the beginning and a few other small details.

Makes you wonder if perhaps it was "dumbed down"...


Mick

well...
i must say for saifa to go from being a black belt kata to an orange/green belt kata it would HAVE to be 'dumbed down'

I have to say, before I switched from GKR to Goju I thought I knew Saifa inside and out. I was so wrong! It's a much more complex kata than I was led to believe by GKR. I'd go along with Mick that it has probably been dumbed down and simplified to make it easier to teach. Alot of the whipping motion and flow of the kata isn't there in the GKR version and that's the hard bit to get the hang of.

The applications in the first sequence alone are staggering. It seems we are always finding new techniques that relate to those simple moves.

You dont suppose..

Really - I've always found whipping is quite easy,

My RM is always whipping me at Kumite, My wife is always whipping me at home...

Show me a GKR instructor who thinks they learnt Saifa properly before they became an instructor and I'll show you someone who only thinks they learnt Saifa properly before they became an instructor.


Mick

OOH OOH OOH

PICK ME PICK ME!!!!



i know i know...

but at least I'm getting the point of Saifa (and a few others) now!!!!!

Nice one

Yes. I have looked at 3 other versions of Saifa. On the surface there would seem to be some significant differences but underneath...?

On the whole I prefer the ShitoRyu version, and the Kenshikai (Okinawan GojuRyu school) version is interesting also.


Mick