You know the bit. Turn around, groin strike, grab wedding tackle, lift it up and rip it off.
One of the most commonly taught parts of a kata, usually with great hilarity ensuing. Can anyone actually confirm that this is indeed what is occuring at this point in the kata?

It's an entertaining way of explaining it for teaching purposes. But no, it's not what you're really doing.


Mick

suggestions?
I'd welcome any.

Come on Mick you can't leave it like that we want you to elaborate

Hmmm... really?

I haven't figured all of bassai dai out yet, but one possibility that has occurred to me is:
After the double rising block and double tetsui, you have lunge punch followed by turn and spearhand to groin then step back into the "trophy" stance.
The lunge punch, turn and spearhand set is not unlike a throw known as o goshi (a hip throw), where you enter the opponent's space, penetrate past their side with your hand (right in this case) position your hips and use your legs to lift and you throw them to the front of you (the direction they were originally facing). This could be done off a curving strike, and throws are usually practiced on both sides, so perhaps the double hand rising block indicates this? Dunno. Yet.

Another possibility suggested by one of the Bobs on one forum or another is that (on the spearhand move) the hand covering the ear is deflecting a strike as you enter and underhook their near leg with the spearhand and lift their leg, at the same time as the lift the other hand pushes to upset balance and drop them that way.


Mick

It would be an exceptional man or woman who could rip through a pair of trousers then rip said tackle clean off!From what I have been told its a palm strike followed by a double block.To be honest anyone hit with a good palm strike to the groin would collapse in a heap.

You could be right about the hand near the ear.We used an Ippon kumite technique like this in Shotokan but the strike to the groin was haito.

I went out one night with a roo shooter who, after dispatching said roos, actually picked them up by the 'goolies' to hook them up onto the truck for dressing!

On initially seeing my first 80 odd kilo rooter picked up that way I was well impressed! Of course the females were treated with much more respect

Okay it's a side issue but goes some way to dispelling that mad bassai dai myth :thumbwink:

Hello Sam here

on the spearhand in bassai dai,what i think you are doing is grabbing the inside of the leg and pull up to the side of your head,so they fall backwards,then the person behind the first attacker punches you block with a cresent kick and tetsui to the groin ,and stepping on your first atackers groin with your right leg.hope you understand.
Sam :thumbwink:

hello, sam here
i discussed it with dad and i also think, that you are grabbing the groin, and reaching for a knife on your shoulder blade and cutting off the groin,hope you undestand again.
sam

of course this would only apply if your opponent was a man




lol sam

Has he been trained by the Afghan Northern Alliance or GKR?

I think locks on the knife drawer in the Waters house would be a good idea


Mick

LOL...Knife on my shoulder blade, and here was I thinking my leg strap and H&K holster were kool

Of course the people of okiwana didnt make up the knife bunkai, thats more of an up to date bunkai for street fighting.The people of okiwana made up kata as a way to rember certain defensive applications,by the way as i understand it, Ryu, is the local okiwana peoples name for the island.My dad finds out lots of things for me, he is not 100% on that, can anyone confirm?.
I enjoy making up bunkai for kata, but dad wont let me practise on him any more!!!
I think we should have a section for people, to put the bunkai they know for all the GKR KATA it would help all the new people know what they are supposed to be doing, and not just doing what we are told,and not knowing why,there are many different versions for one move, we hasve always had trouble finding about bunkai for kata, doing kata without bunkai is like picking up a book from the shelf to read, reading the blurb, thinking yeah i wanna read that, then finding the book empty.?you then have to create your own story to match the blurb( i stole that from my dad) anyway have to go time to go to school.

Victoria and Sam

I hate to say it but it has already been tried/suggested and it appears that ppl that have put alot of time into researching Kata, and breaking down each move and coming up with different "answers", feel that it's theirs and push for ppl to make their own minds up about the bunkai.

I feel that putting ones ideas about bunkai, help guide others to their own ideas but without a start, we who sit here thinking about it, cant begin to imagine whats outside the square, we just need a tiny push in the direction we need to help

Hey, how about you create a thread Called "Kata Bunkai - Your Ideas"(or something like that, maybe?), and hopefully those peeps that have done a great deal of research, might break down ppls ideas and guide those who havent got the foggist idea, a bump in the direction.

"What the eye doesn't see, the mind fills in" Farley - NM

Great to see you guys finally posting. Why not register your own logins?
I guess I can see why your dad wont let you practice on him if thats the sort of bunkai you're coming up with :eek:

Since theres so much discussion about it - would a bunkai category be in order?

Agreed

We posted at the same time rusty - but I agree with you. I sure need a hint or several to get my mind on track.

Hi there,
As with all kata there are many bunkai none being right or wrong the most common is that the top hand is protecting the head from counter attack while reaching inside the front leg of an attacker and then uning the top hand to push down their body as you lift the leg. This is also good for the sai (bassai dai is also a sai kata). It may be a groin grab - lets face it you don't have to rip them off to drop an opponent . alternatiely itcan also be a hold on the lower leg while you grab a katana or to to slice through the femoral artery/groin area. It doesn't really matter so long as you have a visualisation when you do the move.

I watched the guys from the NAS team do this at the last Perth tournament. When they did the groin strike they grabbed a piece of red cloth from the lower part of the oponents belt & held it up as a trophy. Looked cool, but made my eyes water.

Dan

There are good reasons for not posting complete bunkai/oyo. True, one of those reasons is that people who have put the work in to learn and research don't want it ripped off - the problem is that there are people who would simply take it, learn it and then teach it as their own.

The flipside to this is that many of the people who do that simply learn it by rote, the same as they've learnt their kata. Change the attack from a straight punch to a push or a grab and often their lack of understanding will show through. IMO anyway.

The best way to learn is to learn, not just copy. If you do the work to figure something out, do you not value it more than if it was just handed to you? It's like if you work and save during your teenage years then buy a car when you get your driving licence the car has more personal value than a car which is bought for you.

This is why, for the most part, only fragments of kata are posted at any one time. I also have a tendency to leave a few details out and try to lead people to understand it rather than just lay it all out for them. The missing details often become evident when the actions are examined closely, but for those who just copy (read "steal" j/k) and then teach it the flaws are taught along with it.

Some people might think this is bad, and a disservice to those students further down the line but I consider the key to be in the flaw - the student who questions will discover the flaw and hopefully will then look for explanation.


Mick

Sorry, but I do not believe that Bassai Dai is also a sai kata any more than I believe Sepai is also a sword kata. Just because you may be able to perform a rendition of a karate kata with weapons in hand it does not a weapon kata make.



IMO you would not go to grappling range and then draw a weapon. For katana an opening distance of about 6 metres is considered the minimum, less than that is too close before you attack.


Mick

Hi, Like Deano, I learned the gooley grab bunkai for this move. That was shotokan 1973/4. We had a young lady student who, after this explaination developed a great love for demonstrating bassai dai, with this move as her devastating best.

The question was not about the grion strike, rather was it a yank on the way back?, or a complete rip? Since the right hand remains closed for several moves it must of been just a yank. Otherwise your holding a pair of nuts through several blocks and punches until the first 45deg open hand strike. yes we were taught it was a strike not a block. Iether way that attacker would get a big shock when his mates knackers were flung in his face.

I too was told this in Shotokan.The twisting and pulling was done once the opponent was on the ground.I can still hear the instructor shouting "strike,grab,twist,pull"!The strike was haito and the thumb was rammed into the pubic bone with the other four fingers taking an upward path into the tesicles.The thumb and fingers were then applied like a pair of pliers with a twisting action.Not nice.

I can't saty I have heard of Bassai dai being a weapons kata.In shotokan we had seperate weapons kata.The first weapons kata learned was sai.

these kata threads are just making me more certain i WAS right kata sucks. everone can now take it a official B) . fang has spoken

Hi Fang,

I must admit that some of the comments on the application of kata would make me feel the same as you do. Fortunately, I have different experiences that I am able to appreciate more and more.

Regards,
boz

I have to agree with you Fang.I have never seen the point of kata,the whole thing seems unrealistic.Look at cats and dogs,they don't practice kata yet they seem to be able to defend themselves quite well.The body has its own natural way of fighting.

I appreciate that knowledge handed out has less worth than knowledge earned (and am grateful for what has been said thus far), but for most of us we have little opportunity to get such knowledge in the course of our training. Might I suggest a few pointers-the-right-direction would assist us noobs in this regard, to research if we desire?

Hi Matt,

Where to start! It is not a simple matter as 'bunkai/oyo' depends on one's understanding of basic techniques and how they are applied. In order to point anyone in the right direction it is necessary to have an idea of the difference between modern and old style karate, the purpose of the 5 basic elements of kata, i.e. kicks, punches, strikes, blocks and stances, to know basic jointlocks and throws and understand the construction of kata. This is the research needed to be done by the karateka first, else every kata will have different applications with no connection to one another.

The move spoken about in this thread was not present in older kata. Funakoshi has bolted this move onto the Shotokan version. Prior to this the move appeared to provide a 180o change of direction and a link to the next self-defense sequence. Ripping someone's testicles off is just the sort of nonsense Japanese instructors would tell their naive students

Regards,
Boz

Hello sam and victoria here

Boz when we first did karate,we didnt know what bunkai was,and just copied the kata we were shown, the longer we have done karate,the more we know its not just kicks and punches etc.Please can u tell us if we are thinking along the right lines?The people of okinawa did kata as a way of rembering self defense moves,that they could do on their own,their bunkai,applications,were kicks punches blocks , and throws, takedowns , joint locks etc in an imaginary fight seqence.The takedowns joint locks etc seem to have got lost in the pe or sport karate that is now taught by a lot of people,there bunkai for this is all blocks or punches with a few grabs thrown in.So people from the modern world dont fully understand bunkai for a kata because they dont realise that there are grabs and throws arm locks etc,and not just blocks and punches.
From what we have read the okinawa people taught the service men ,japenese what they wanted to know and were interested in,kihon kata kumite,this became pe karate as a big part of self defence was missing.
So GKR would be a pe or sport karate because the true applications from the original kata have not been taught to us?
Victoria and sam and dad

my sensei explained the spearhand technique in kata bassai-dai as grabbing the leg of the pants and pulling upwards while simultaeneously striking stomach/groin to execute a type of throw.

anyone agree>?

It could also conceivably be the finishing position of a hip throw.


Mick

Interested theories and a bit of discussion between three sensei after senior training - back in the old days those japanese soldiers did notwear trousers oly a sort of skirt set up thing - they were able to reach in, get a good fist full and rriiippp - offf they came (sort of).LOL sorry guys - it really is enough to make your eyes water

Unfortunately, karate was not introduced into Japan until 1921 (proper) and the art was already focused on Physical Education. Modern karate as a sport was created by the Japanese and self-defense was an extremely minor consideration. The actual art of the empty hand (Toudi) that was based on self-defense didn't catch the plane from Okinawa to the Japanese mainland

Although karate is classified as a Martial Art, it is better thought of as a civil self-defense art. In Okinawa, empty hand arts were used by the Palace Guards (kind of like Military Police ) and Police Officers. Early Karate was intended to overwhelm and restrain an attacker, not to kill them. Military troops learn combat techniques designed to kill an enemy quickly.

Cheers,
Boz

I would venture that empty-hand arts learned by soldiers were for taking prisoners for hostage/ransom where they're worth more alive than dead, or as a last resort when your weapons have been lost or broken.

Hakama (the baggy pleated pants) are derived from samurai garb. They're not unlike the leather chaps that cowboys wore to protect their legs.

But it's good to see that things don't change and stick with these sorts of explanations that fire the imagination


Mick

Boz, do you imply that the purpose of karate isnt for self defence, or just that it shouldnt be marketed that way?

Boz is away for the week on holiday, the lucky sod

Boz has said in the past that modern karate was created for the school PE system and in the process the kata of Te was modified to be less brutal but at the same time the keys to unlock the kata and find your way back to the self defence applications were also created. They just weren't passed along with the kata. But there are a handful of people still living who did learn and we are probably lucky to have people like Boz who have found them and are working to preserve what could otherwise easily be lost forever.

In the form that most karate schools practice it probably shouldn't be marketed as self defence - learning how to spar by dojo rules and learning some patterns without linking it all to the underlying principles doesn't really constitute self defence IMO. And doing a handful of self defence techniques now and then is not proper SD training is it? You don't remember what you don't practice...


Mick

It was created for schools?

Yes, it was made more kid-friendly LOL


Mick

Modern Karate has a number of purposes and it is the individual that eventually makes their own choice. It was originally a civil self-defense art but Itosu made it suitable for the general community and in particular, appropriate for inclusion into the Okinawan School Physical Education program.

Once in Japan proper it bacame both an art and a sport and eventually a business. It is classified as a Martial Art and as part of the Budo arts that proliferated in Japan in the 20th Century. However karate is mainly taught as recreation, sport or as a commercial venture

The quick tale. Basically there was an art known as Te or Ti (hand meaning fighting technique) indigeneous to Okinawa. Later there was a big influence from Chinese Martial Arts and there were two arts, Te and Chinese influenced te which became known as Toudi (china hand) or Tote in Japanese. Itosu described his Martial Arts program for the school as Toudi but it became known as kara-te (empty hand) and stuck. Essentially karate is the name of the Martial Art program that began in the school system. Karate is actually a style of Martial Art and what we refer to these days as 'styles' of karate are really just different schools of karate.

Cheers,
Boz