Hi all
I dont know if any ones seen it yet? but on Mat B website, there is a new section that gives bunkai for kata up to and including sanseru.Its worth taking a look.
Nigel

Thanks mate will take a look

Hi Nigel,

I went and had a look. Can I say most respectfully that what is shown there is what I would politely term 'surface' (omote) applications.

Regards,
boz

While I commend MatB for doing this, to me it reflects a problem which is not being addressed by the club. That people are asking more and more about applications to kata as the subject is frequently raised in fora like this but that the club either does not have the knowledge to teach any or interest in teaching it.
The applications in the videos are a start, but sadly they'll probably be the finish as well. There'd be at best a mere handful of people with deeper knowledge and they're most likely not in a position to disseminate this, or they'll teach bits and pieces to some few favoured people but hold the rest back as there's no appreciation generally forthcoming.

I know I have found that a handful of people with whom I have discussed ideas and possibilities are appreciative of the assistance (meagre as it might be) but the club in general I think would soak it up then pass it out as having come from the top levels and whoever they've learned it from will be ignored and left unmentioned.


Mick

hmm... I really should put a disclaimer of some sort in my sig...

Boz says

I went and had a look. Can I say most respectfully that what is shown there is what I would politely term 'surface' (omote) applications.

Regards,
boz

Hi Boz, i couldnt agree more,whilst i and many others are looking deeper into applications, i feel this is a very good start, for GKR, and one that is long overdue.
Regards
Nigel

One of the main problems is lack of time on class.Too much time is spent on explaining basics to beginners.One new beginner on a class throws the entire class out of sync.

The only instructors I have met in GKR that have some knowledge of bunkai have come from other styles.It seems to me that GKR's philsophy is to get away with what they can.If the students are prepared to accept it and more to the point keep on paying for it then the formula will remain unchanged.

The address for the site would be...?

Yes, I'm an idiot! humour me.

shane you're not an idiot it's a british site www.gkrkarate.org/. and although i agree with the others that the bunkai part only touches the surface, the rest of the site is pretty awesome. go there and judge for yourself

thanks for that.

there is a fair bit of stuff in that one hay?

definitely a favourite

I'm wondering whether there is a tendency for bigger stronger people to create their own bunkai which takes advantage of their strength?


Mick

I dont know about that mick?
But there is in this household anyway! a tendency for smaller,weaker people,to create their own bunkai!!and it sure as hell frightens the life out of me, but then i dont like needles!!!!!!!!!
I think i need to cut down on sams martial art dvd intake, jet li has a lot to answer for.
just off to take some more vallium!
Nigel

What do you mean "surface" application? A simplistic view?

That would be how I view it (simplistic) for example the start of bassai dai which consists mostly of blocks. A simplistic view would be that you're simply defending, turning a different direction and defending again.


Mick

Well, blocks being pretty much a defensive move wouldnt that be logical?

In the context of how bunkai is normally taught in GKR, no. The typical (IME) view of multiple attackers would mean that you block a couple of strikes then turn to block someone else, which logically means you'd be clocked in the back of the head by the first person.

Besides, I don't expect many people would throw a couple of punches then give up because they've been blocked.

Add to that in the first move in Bassai Dai you have a high side block (the wind-up bit) followed by a reinforced uchi uke where you move some distance forward would mean that if both these moves were blocks then on the second one you're much closer to the person than on the first. Unless the first strike was from a stick of some sort, in which case I don't think I'd stand there and receive it on my forearms anyway.

More food for thought?


Mick

Agreed, but wasnt it stated in another post that you shouldn't view a kata as an entire attack/defence scenario, and that the techniques and self defence applications become particularly relevant when viewed in isolation from the kata as a whole?

Mick,
I see the first moves of Bassai Dai different to your (as posted on UK forum -see link)
http://www.gkrkarate.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=560

I beleive that a lot of what we perceive as blocks are really takedown techniques and arm/wrist locks etc.

I think it would help if GKR did teach a sort of 'set' Bunkai ( for beginners at least) and then anyone who wanted to take it further , could.

There is far more to Kata then most people realise with it not just being a sequence of fancy moves to impress but a complete fighting strategy in itself. Over the last few weeks I have become more in awe of its potential with each finding I make :thumbwink:

I think some people get confused when they hear things like "complete fighting strategy" and read it as one continuous fight scene against multiple attackers.

IMO a kata can contain a complete fighting strategy in that each of the sequences can provide defences for various attacks, and when a kata is viewed in it's entirety as a collection of sequences it teaches how to deal with common assaults such as grabs, strikes (including thrusting attacks with sharp objects and swings with club weapons).

What we also have is stylised movements and changes made to kata either deliberately to obscure some of the more vicious responses or made through ignorance of the functions. On top of that we have the formalised stances and other changes for aesthetic reason which do not hide the function when the function is know but also do not make it clear when you don't have a teacher who knows and can explain.

One of the things I advise is to try and see which of the common assaults blend with a kata, do some lateral thinking while sticking to the basic template, but also be prepared to reject earlier assumptions if further learning shows flaws in what you've discovered thus far. In doing this I have had some ideas which I've later rejected only to re-embrace them when I've learnt still more about how to apply a technique into the kata framework.

The biggest thing I find is that people train with an "attacker" who attacks like a wooden dummy, and the technique you've visualised works great. But it also needs to be tested with an "attacker" who acts naturally.

I do often say that kata are collections of sequences, and my greatest objections arrive when people try to create bunkai as a performance of the kata from start to finish.

I think Boz has already offered one option for the opening moves of Bassai Dai as being a defence against a swinging or roundhouse punch followed by a shoulder throw. Admittedly this can be hard to see if you don't have any idea what different throws and takedowns look like.


Mick

Mick,
I too agree to the philosophy that the Kata is not done as a continuous stream of moves against oncoming attacks. What I was trying to put across when saying each kata can be seen as a complete fighting strategy was to suggest that there are enough different strikes /throws/ locks/ blocks in that Kata to be used in dealing with situations that ocur in a split second ( fight on the street / pre-emptive attacks ) but not necessarily all at the same time.

Kata applications were designed to be used against aggressors in the civillian capacity that were untrained in martial arts therefore attacks and defensive moves had to cover a varied scope of possibilites that could occur ( i.e. groin kicks /roundhouse punches etc). One thing I haven't yet discovered though is there any bunkai against a headbutt ???

Yes, there is


Mick

Which kata?

Hi guys

There seems to be some discontentment regarding the "lack" of bunkai taught. (have heard it all before though)
Now that I am outside tha club (can't get hammered at RM training!!) I can add a few things to the kata argument that may open up some lines of discussion and investigation.

This post is not a bag out post so please do not take it the wrong way and in no way is it ment to be taken as mine is better than yours, just sharing knowledge.

All goju (kai or ryu) kata have very strong teaching within them. There are throws saifa, seiunchin, sanseru, shisossin, sepai, superunpai. Grip releases in gekkasai's saifa and all higher kata, there are limb breaks, close range fighting techniques, weapon defences. In fact there are many techniques, interpritations and hidden techniques that I am yet to learn from my master instructor.

While training and working for GKR our instructions were to teach the obvious applications within the kata and only applications that they taught to us. GKR has unique kata, so teaching application from an outside the style compromises the pattern of a GKR kata.

At my school we do complete kata's with partners, at all levels. (basic, intermediate, advanced and open) We also perform kata in a straight line, from the first kata to teh most advanced. This makes for great partner work and therefore a greater understanding of the kata at all levels.

Sorry for any typo's.............Sensei Butterfingers and it is after 1am........Goodnight!!
Regards

Dave

There is more to kata than applications. Or so I am told. If I got the message right. But I am still trying to figure that out.


Mick

Thanks for the post Dave.
Your insight to how things work inside the heirarchy is something none of us have experienced so is very much appreciated.
I dont think you need to worry about causing offence, most of us here just want to learn and know where you are coming from

There is more to kata than application? A very basic statement that is true in a sense...............however kata without strong application is just a pattern, and anyone can learn a pattern. (much like monkey see monkey do)
The speed, precision, defence, attack, breathing, body posture, movement, power, softness, bow in and out is not based on a mindless pattern.

Don't confuse application with just the practical self defence or fighting applications, however these applications give the karateka a good sound understanding of what would just be a pattern.

For example your 4th kyu kata has arm breaks, grip releases, three throws and a classic hidden or bluff technique. Which is why it is traditionally a shodan-ho kata. It takes time to learn a kata and its meanings.

I must admit that I do not fully understand your statement of "there is more to kata than application" because in my experience without application and a good understanding of it there is no kata.

I guess micks saying dont become overly obsessed with applications. When we started going through them (as opposed to just doing the pattern) I know I was looking for them everywhere....even to the point of the 270 degree turn in T1. We had discussed it here a lot, and options from hip throw to power block were coming up...Mick suggested it was simply a mawate followed by a 90 degree left turn to start the kata again. Kinda made sense.

Some of the function is practice of basics...


Mick

Heres a 64 dollar question (times are tough )

What IS kata then?

According to my dictionary...
Kata:
1. lagoon
2. person
3. model
4. shoulder
5. excess
6. plentiful

That's what you get for 64 bucks


Mick

Well it was a pretty good question.
Whats the point of it all anyway?Is it that people arent wearing enough hats?