When I started learning the above katas I went to various GKR web sites and printed off the relevent description of moves and practiced as written. It has now been pointed out to me that I should not be looking over my left shoulder as my GKR printed copy states but over my right shoulder which to me makes sense. I might add that it was a UK site that I got the details and not the local site which is correct(should'v looked there first but I was surfin the net at the time)but my point is techniques seem to be differant within GKR and it has taken a while for my mistake to pointed out to me and it's hard to break old habits. So how important is it which way you look when doing 180 Deg turns?

In my never-ending quest to publicly display my ignorance, I asked this very same question of various senseis. The answer (at least for 1st kata) was

"Look the way you are going to turn, except for when you do those reverse turns when you do a 270 degree turn just after the kiai move."

This works for me, and it has stopped my 6 year old from turning the wrong way. He would look to the left and then turn that way. I gave him the above advice and he is doing much better at it.

Cheers.

Ken. :thumbgrin:

Which way you looked changed a while back, i guess the site has not been updated :thumbwink:

i tend to go with whatever works
i practise the corrections but when it comes to gradings, competitions or demonstrations i tend to get lost in what i'm doing

if i haven't practised the correction enough i tend to lapse back to the old way.

i've always found the old way is better than no way

basically...
follow your instructors instructions but don't stress over it
generally, it won't fail you in the earlier grades

that's what being a beginner is all about

Thanks for the tips, it does make sense to me that you look the way you are turning when doing a 180Deg turn, I found I sometimes lost balance when looking over your left shoulder but swivelling right, your head is almost turning 360 Deg compared to 180Deg so I find the less movement of the head the better. It is only a minor technical fault but I feel you should try and rectify them at an early stage, as we have found out with the recent changes with Saifa, it's hard to break old habits . :thumbwink:

There've been changes to Saifa?


Mick

MIck have you been sleeping like beauty.

KIM

Totally. Haven't you heard? It's now policy to change moves in Go Kan Ryu kata every two weeks, just to keep students and senseis on their toes.

Hmmm,don't recall any changes in Saifa?
Bassai Dai and Seunchin changed a little and Sepai a lot(about 6 moves!)
It does sometimes seem like they change a kata every couple of weeks!

Just from memory, I think they changed the first three moves, entailing the bit where you have your hand flat against your fist. It was that instead of bringing the fist to the flat hand, you now slide the flat hand across to the fist.

There was the move right after the first three sections where you force your left hand down flat immediately before stepping out to do the kick on one leg.

There's the movement where you spin around and hit someone on the head with a hammerfist strike. Apparently you use the arm which isn't striking as a means to help spin you around faster.

Those are the latest I've been informed about that were changed. My descriptions aren't that pretty, so... =O

That's for Saifa, bu the way.

Either they changed all that a year ago, or some people were just teaching/learning differently - I've been taught to do Saifa that way for the past year.
The only change I am aware of in the past 12 months was when sanchin dachi was modified.

B

Don't you just love it when RMs and instructors get corrected but pass it off as changes?


Mick

me not cynical

I have not been sleeping but rather working on a translation from a kata book I have which is written in japanese.


Mick

Yup im with Bearette on this one, all those changes listed are the way we had been taught from the start.The one change we have been told about with saifa is the last turn before you grab the head, when you turn,the trailing arm now has to be bent before it shoots through.Anybody already been doing this, we were always told to keep it straight,kinda like a sweeping motion.
Interesting theory mick, could be that the sensei had been taught wrong, and announces these as a change.

yep that man
always been bending it

but the changes talked about for perth are the timing of the sumo stances , pull back section

arms pull back before dropping into sumo stance, where as we have been using the drop into sumo stance as leverage to pull arms back

oh well...

Stuff happens... you say tomato, I say ham-and-salad...


Mick

Havent been told that one yet Bearette,prehaps thats next weeks change

We were taught the bent arm (hand comes in above the belt) and the pull back, then sumo stance. Face it - I just have the best sensei!!! Who just happens to be a perfectionist when it comes to kata.
And is weird about pigeons...
But our katas are always done well.

Bearette

that was suppose to be a compliment like sleeping beauty. Translating very good i wish i knew a bit more about japanese it would make it so much easier learning the right names for the moves.

KIM
:thumbwink:
I think the japanese words is the harder than the actual moves

Well thank you Kim

Actually I find the japanese terms are very structured and indicate the techniques often better than they are described in english.


Mick

Bit harsh to say that I think. If a kata has evolved in a geographically large and somewhat isolated region such as Perth where for a long time there were only 2 RM's, one of whom was the NAS coach (where katas were judged on how they looked rather than being technically correct) and this way of kata slowly but unintentionally becomes the norm, why is it anything other than an official change? Is the branch instructor wrong to teach a kata that was taught wrongly to them? Heck if they came from say Sydney after training with Kancho and knew it was wrong what are they supposed to do, correct the RM? Each successive RM in a region puts their own flair and preferances into all aspects of the regions karate, and expects their junior instructors to adapt. Then the poor buggers have to go back to their class and pass on the changes, which are certainly official due to the new powers that be.

Harsh perhaps... but what of the concept that a GKR student can travel to any GKR anywhere and get exactly the same training? This implies to me that they want everyone to be identical. Which of itself may be something of a problem since everyone is different.

Wondering if anyone has seen people who (for example) have an impressive-looking seiunchin but can never quite get empi, or whose bassai dai looks sharp but maybe their seiunchin is lacking strength?


Mick

I do recall hearing "Its like Macdonalds. You should be able to travel anywhere in the world and get the same class" from an RM no less. Good in theory but impossible in practice.

What are you saying by your last comment? Some people are better suited physically to Goju and some to Shotokan? Its a mistake to merge two vastly different karate disciplines?

The closest example I can think of for mixing different 'styles' is shito-ryu. Mabuni was a collector and learned kata from a number of sources including Higaonna (pre-Goju) and Itosu (pre-Shotokan). Even so the kata have been modified to some degree for uniformity of techniques.

For example there is shiko dachi (sumo) but no kiba dachi (horse) since having both is largely redundant.
There is also neko ashi dachi (cat) but no kokutsu dachi (back stance). The older stance of uki ashi dachi (floating foot) was shortened into cat stance which is often considered more practical, except in shotokan where it was lengthened to kokutsu dachi. So you could basically say that they are both the same stance, and again it is redundant to have both.

So I'm not saying it can't be done, but that it takes a considerable amount of skill to create a successful mix. A level of skill that very few would have, to know the function well enough to modify the form without losing the function. And those that are skilled enough would have little interest in doing this.

Modifying a kata is a dodgy business. If you changed a movement in a kata so that it more closely resembled an application that you liked but that didn't quite fit the existing form, then you have the cart before the horse. What this says is that you didn't understand that part of the kata in the first place. Or worse (according to many) changing the form so that it "looks better"...


Mick

I'm not sure if this helps at all but i do know that there are footwork charts at one of GKR's Unofficial sites.

They do help especially when there is no sensei or sempie around to ask for help so you can study them at home, it will jsut help if you are highly literate or a decent amount anyway.

Sorry if this seems like I am being a bit to trivial for my first post but anyway.

Cheers.

Yes, there are a number of references to be found - descriptions, videos, photos etc. The best way to learn is hands-on from a teacher but in-between classes these are all good ways of helping yourself practice.

Better to be earnestly trivial rather than to post frivolously


Mick

I used to hand these out sometimes. Students did say they helped quite a lot, especially with the direction changes.

Mustnt.....comment......

I once performed a poor excuse of 1st kata for a simple video for the website.

As mych as it sucked, and it did, new students were coming to me saying how helpful it really was to have something they could watch at home to 'compare' their katas with.

Must remember to update those videos now......

Must remember to get a copy of it before you delete it

I have a copy


Mick

Personally I don't particularly like the 2nd kata. To me it's just Taikyoku Shodan with a kick bolted on.

FWIW I'd use Taikyoku Shodan as an introductory kata then progress to Pinan Nidan. That way the kata can also be used for teaching sparring.


Mick

I checked out a couple of different martial arts before joining up with kung fu.
Karate and Tai Kwon Do were two of them.

During my "introductory" classes I learnt a kata or pattern. What I was amazed to discover was that they were pretty much the exact same thing.

Simple pattern with two techniques used in sequence.

I was able to learn the whole thing in one class.

When I began my training with kung fu I was shocked at the difference in content.
The first form was quite in depth. With all 7 basic stances involved and many techniques not introduced til higher grades.
It was rather long and very in depth.

Forms are held in a high regard in kung fu. To pass a level I must first get my form signed off before the rest of my techniques are even looked at.

Can anyone suggest why a white belt in karate and Tai Kwon Do are taught such basic patterns to begin with yet someone of the same skill level (being nil) is taught something so complex in a different art?

I'm yet to see a non kung fu kata or pattern that is more complex than my first form.

What is with that?

Why are katas or patterns so basic?
Because karate and tai kwon do are basic styles easily learnt and adapted to.
Anyone can do them.

why are kung fu forms so complex? because kung fu is complex.

To have the best understanding of kung fu you need to start at an early age.

I believe yoiung children as young as 4 or 5 begin learning Chi Goong to develop flexibilty, speed, strength and body conditioning.
You then move onto Tai Chi to gain an understanding of fluid movements and breathing etc.
Once you have mastered these areas you can then move onto learning Kung fu.

What does this mean? Kung fu is a complex art, with complex moves, and complex meanings. It becomes a llife time journey that I'm afraid you have left til its too late to begin. There's no way I could ever learn something like kung fu.
The reason why i have chosen karate as my first style. Its basic. Im unco. Perfect match.

Are you saying that karate is not a lifetime journey?


Mick

I thought that until I left GKR and started training in Goju Ryu. Then I found all the stuff Kancho left out to teach "karate for everyone". If you think karate as an art is basic and can all be learned relatively quickly, then you need to look a little deeper and maybe into a different style.

Funakoshi also said karate is for everyone, male and female, young and old alike.

What is taught and what is to be expected of a student can be adjusted depending on the student's own ability and capability. There is no need to take the level of teaching down to the lowest common denominator in order to make karate suitable for everyone.


Mick