For anyone who may be interested,and is or are thinking of cross training,below are my thoughts on the subject.
Victoria and Sam do another style as well as GKR,called Tang soo do,they also do some freestyle within this style.
my thoughts and opinions,no style bashing,as i dont beleive any one style is better than any other,i think we can learn from all styles,keep the info that is right for you ,disregard the rest,knowledge is a powerful weapon.
Victoria age 12 and Sam age 8 are 3rd kyu brown belts with GKR,and have been training for 3 yrs in october.They did train 4 to 5 times a week,until recently and now train 1 or2 times a week. we owe GKR A VERY BIG THANK YOU as without them, the kids would not be on the very exciting martial arts journey,they currently are enjoying.

Around a year ago the kids expressed an interest in Kobudo,and were aways on the net seaching for info, showing a very keen interest and spending their pocket money etc on martial art DVDS,so it was decided to find a weapons class,as an added extra to GKR.

We found a weapons class very close to our home, with a 3rd dan instructor,So after watching classes for about 3 weeks we joined.(no joining fee)The weapons classes were mostly freestyle,once learning some basic moves in their chosen weapon, the kids were invited to make a freestyle form using weapons,and then they made a form using music, they absolutley love this class as it gives them artistic licence,they were also taught new kicks etc,ie cannon kicking, spirals,diagonal front kick,scorpion , so and so on,all these were incorperated into the weapons forms.

Realishing the fact there was so much more to learn,they asked to attend the normal lessons,The style is based on Tang soo do,with freestyle and kickboxing,and weapons added,the core was Tang soo do.

WHAT IS TANG SOO DO

The very first evidence of this ancient form of Korean martial arts appeared during the Three Kingdom era (57 BC-935 AD) as Hwa Rang Do. Since then, 2,000 years have passed. The indigenous martial arts quietly developed through generations of the Korean people. During some eras it flourished and other times it diminished, according to the political, economic or cultural environment. The art was known by various names throughout the eras as Hwa Rang Do, Moo Sul, Kyuck Too Ki, Soo Bahk Ki, Soo Byuck Ki, Taek Kyun etc. respectively. Following 1945 Korean independence, the Korean martial arts were again merged and flourished throughout the entire Korean Peninsula. Many organizations were founded with various names such as Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do, Tae Soo Do and so on. At the beginning of the modern era of the Korean martial arts, Tang Soo Do was the most popular term for these arts, however, at that time, the Korean political leader was concerned about establishing Korean value based on Korean nationalism. The political leaders recognized the popularity of Korean martial arts around the world, but were opposed to the use of the name Tang Soo Do for the art, as it sounded like a Chinese martial art, because the first word "Tang" could be interpreted as representing the Chinese Tang Dynasty (617-907 AD). In 1964, a government sponsored small group created a new name for the Korean martial arts: Tae Kwon Do.

Victoria and Sam settled in really quickly,apart from the new names for the kicks punches etc(korean) they found that the basics were the same as in GKR,slight variation to back leaning stance.
Indeed after only 3 months they triple graded to orange belt(thank you GKR)
BELT COLOURS
white, yellow , purple, orange, green, blue, blue 1 tag, red, red 1 tag, black
The kids are currently green,grading to blue very shortley so we are informed.
We have found the basics to be very similar, however they do a lot more leg work in TSD,which we find compliments GKR very well.
Great emphasis is put on stretching they do about 30 mins at the start of every class,and stretch down at the end,it has helped with flexibility,both children can do the splits,and can kick way above head hight if required.
A class consists of any of the following
Stretching this is always done
Line drills ---- Self defence
Weapons --- Breakfalls
Kicks --- fitness work
Punches --- Kumite
Stance work --- Breaking
Pad work --- Korean terminology
kata

There are so many variations amongst these titles ,and so much more to cover.

Kata, form 1 is the same as our first kata,form 2 is the same except instead of kicks they do high blocks.They do a new Kata for every grade,Most of the kata learnt so far has similarities with a GKR kata
I will cover Kumite and Gradings soon if anyone wants me too
Nigel

Very interesting Thatman, not that I and my son are ready to cross-train, BUT Tang Soo Do is the 'other' local martial art we could take up (I think there is a more self-defense/kickboxing class too).

I'd be interested in reading more :thumbgrin:

*points to head* 3rd Degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do here... ;-)

Hehe. Seriously, Tang Soo Do is what got me started in the Martial Arts originally. As already mentioned by thatmanwaters, Tang Soo Do does concentrate a lot on leg work. Stretching is key in classes, and I can apply my stretching routines that I've learned over the years to my GKR classes that I now teach.

There are certainly some different kicks in Tang Soo Do that you won't find in GKR, for example, axe kicks, diagonal kicks and various spinning and spinning-jumping kicks. That's because they are traditionally Korean style kicks.

The difference between Tang Soo Do, and Tae Kwon Do, is that Tae Kwon Do is more of a sport, whereas TSD, like GKR is more of a traditional Martial Art, focusing on character development.

Tang Soo Do gave me a lot of happy years, but now I've found GKR, I must say I prefer the balance between hands and feet, even though I do have an advantage when sparring many students... ;-)

Thank you for the post. Its always good to read what other styles are like.
I came from a Taekwondo background but didnt get that far. From what you have said the two styles are very similar. Got to disagree on the comment TKD is a sport. We had the opportunity to compete but were never pushed and I never saw the sport element at all.

Saying TKD is a sport is a bit general and vague, I agree, but most Tae Kwon Do federations actively promote themselves as a sport, even including the biggest Tae Kwon Do federation there is, the World Tae Kwon Do Federation (WTF).

Tae Kwon Do as an Olympic Sport

:thumbwink: Great post thank you Nigel. I like to hear from those who have trained in another style.
I cant say Ive heard much about Tang Soo Do over here - I did a very quick search but couldnt find any schools at all

Ok time to have a go at part 2

Here is a list of some of the kata the kids have learnt so far
kee-cho Il bu
Kee-Ee bu
Pyung-ahn cho dan
Pyung ahn Ee dan
pyung ahn sam dan

Master Mac's Korean Martial Arts Forms Resource (sorry couldnt link it try the search engine) is the place you will find these forms if you would like to take a look, sometimes the site is unavailable but be persistant it is there.

Kata does not seem to be a priority with tsd, in as much, although you need to know the forms and be able to perform the forms correctly, there is nowhere near the same amount of emphasis put on them as in GKR.Could be just our dojo? i would be interested to hear ians synopsysis on this statment.Also i dont think master macs performance in performing the kata is particularley inspiring, although it is probably different in real life(no offence intended).
Kata is practised, but seems to be way down the list of important points to cover,infact to me Kata only seems to be practised when a grading is iniment.

Kumite

My favourite he he,Kumite is practised in every lesson, this is normally done, the same way as GKR,( slow,)but with contact(no head contact) for this no mitts or pads are worn,Then 4 to 6 people are chosen, and padded up, mitts shin pads head gear etc,and one pair at a time are called upon to fight,full contact.Then when the fight is over it is discussed by the whole dojo positive and negative points.As ive said before tsd is very much focussed on kicking and to see the range of kicking in action is very scarey,particuley for someone who is not used to it.Victoria and Sam were no different, however once they learnt to deal with the kicks coming at them, they more than held their own,in fact they are now only paired against black belts.(unless helping lower grades).As with the NAS tournament , the GKR style more than holds its own against tsd.One style is not greater than another overal.

Gradings

Gradings are carried out whenever the sensei deems students are ready, there are no cards,with x amount of lessons needed as a guide to grading.Although it goes without saying they are nowhere as big as GKR .

Gradings are normally small affairs 6 to 10 students ( to allow the sensei 3 of them all at least 1st degree b belts) .
a good opertunitity to evaluate the students.

First off is the stretching, normally taken by the highest grade student, who is grading.(if not sufficiently high enough a sensei)
Then horse stance, a weight is tied to the belt of the grading student,whilst in horse stance,and they have to stay in horse stance for a certain amount of time,if the weight comes off the floor(lower grades are warned , 2 warnings allowed) then they fail the grading. Higher grades receive no warnings Gulp!!!.Time wise dont quote me, as i only know what the kids have done, are starting at one minute increasing to a max of 15 mins for b belt, the kids next grading is 7 mins.

To be continued

Your style sounds very interesting, personally im not that interested in learning any more kicks but would be interested to find out more about the weapons work you do, like what weapons are taught, how are they taught, etc..

Gradings continued


If you pass the horse stance test, you are able to proceed with the rest of the grading.
Next up is line drills, moving in various stances, doing various attacks and blocks. Then one step drills.Then you do a stance kata,which is as it sounds moving from 1 stance to another. Then we move onto Kata going through all the kata up to and inc your grade kata.Then we move onto various breakfalls, lower grades have a thick matress to do them on, higher grades use the floor. Then 1 at a time you are up against a b belt doing self defence moves(normally 2 moves each, all different). Then the same is repeated with self defence against weapons.(usually a bo or knife)
Then one at a time, full contact kumite(fully padded up) against a b belt, obviously depending on your grade depends how far you are pushed.
Then we move onto breaking, for the first few belts, you break 1 tile using a punch, then as you progress more tiles are added.Victorias record is five, sam is still on one.
they then have to break wood with a front or side kick.
Finally they have to know how to count to 10 in korean, know the five basic principles of Tang Soo Do,and various other bits that are beyond me.

one-Hanna
two-doll
three-set
four-net
five-darso
six-yarso
seven-Il gop
eight-yodoll
nine-anhol
ten-yol

Impressed arnt you i did that all by myself(psssst go away victoria)

Five basic principles

1. loyalty to ones queen and country
2.obedience to parents and elders
3.respect instructors and seniors
4.self control
5. never miss use ones art


The gradings take about 2 1/2 hours,They get marked a certain score for each bit they do,the pass rate for lower belts(up to orange )is 80% then the pass rate gets higher as you go up the belts.
At the end they receive a certificate with their pass rate on,and thier new belt,gradings cost £15 inc the belt.
Lessons are £3.50 each, but there is no discount for two or more students.The gi are blue with a white stripe and two black stripes either side on the arms and legs.The gi top is a t shirt style, not the traditional wrap round style, i know victoria feels more comfortable with this type of gi,as i guess most women would.

Well thats about it, i have probably forgotten as much as i have written, but i hope i have given you some idea of the Tang soo do the kids love.
i think tsd compliments GKR perfectly and has given the kids a more rounded martial arts knowledge.
Regards
Nigel

As a footnote to my last post i should have added that at no time so far have the kids got confused between the two styles, which is more than i can say for myself but then we all know that kids can adapt quicker than us oldies.
In fact doing two styles at once has helped Sam in particular,as here in the UK with GKR,you have to be 13 to grade to shodan ho, (i know its 10 over in aus) and being only 8 and a 3rd kyu,who is ready to grade so we have been informed, but is being held back because of the age thing,it has given him something else to focus on.There is no age limit in Tsd,so he will prob acheive b belt in tsd before GKR.
Nigel

the age limit in australia is still 13

however if the student is deemed worthy earlier on (and by that i mean they have to be bloody good) then a couple of younger children have passed at a younger age.

Nigel,

A most interesting and informative series of posts :thumbwink:


Mick

For anyone who may be interested, Victoria and Sam,were graded to blue belt today(equivellent to GKR red)Particularly pleasing was the fact Victoria scored a fantastic 96 out of 100 with Sam not far behind on 94,Apparently the highest score given by this style at this dojo to date.

Blue belt grading
Victoria Sam

7 mins horse stance-----pass----pass pass
fail
Line work 18---20 18---20

Basic forms 1 to 6-------18---20 18---20

stance form--------------19---20 19---20

1 step---------------------9----10 8---10

self defence--------------9----10 9---10

breakfalls-----------------9---10 8---10

kumite--------------------4----5 5---5

Korean terminology-----5----5 5---5

breaking ----------------5---5 4----5


total 96/100 94/100


one very proud dad

I would like to improve on my kicks and leg work but find the stretches in GKR is not enough what other stretching can i do to help

Congrats to Sam and Victoria

And I dont blame you for being a proud dad

Congrats to you all!

My congrats to Victoria and Sam also


Mick

grats sounds tough but at the same time your kids are excelling i'd be proud to . now try keeping up with your kids man now that really hurts an old body.

I have two chances of keeping up with the kids!!!!

Slim and None!! :

YAHOOOOOOOO graded to 3rd gup in tsd this morning, and 2nd kyu in gkr last sun, and walked away with medals from the uk qualifiers yest, wow what a week.
victoria

Well done Victoria and Sam! You guys are legends.

Well done guys! :thumbwink:

Though there are probably easier ways to keep a thread going than doing gradings so's you can post about it...


Mick

Oh, and is there any truth to a rumour that the other competitors are sending around a petition to have Victoria and Sam banned from entering tournaments, to give the rest of them a chance at getting some medals?


Mick

funny thing is mick, the kids are actually getting written invites in the post now to attend competitions
While the kids enjoy comps i will continue to support them, roll on the time when they get fed up with competing though, as then i may get my life back and not least of all have some money for a change.

mmmm now theres a thought mick, where do i sign that petition.

Hello all
Sam and i are due to take our 2nd gup in tsd this weekend, this grading has been split into 3 parts with the physical bits spread over 2 days, the first part that we had to hand in a few weeks ago, was a written thesis, then last nite we had to do 10 mins horse stance,We are put into stance and have a weight tied to our belt, if the weight comes off the floor we fail the grading..Sam has a viral infection and is very weak,and not very well at all, so it was decided for the first time since we began martial arts,we would be unable to grade together .Sam was adamant he wanted to watch and cheer me on, because he knows i struggle with that lenght of time.We get two chances at this!! at around 7 minutes i was in agony and crying and my legs were shaking like mad, then i fell over!!. i had failed my first attempt.I had the choice of trying again after a break or leaving it until today, i chose to do it again despite everyone saying do it tomorrow.As i was about to start again Sam stood in front of me, as we had two chances he decided he would try, he wanted to help me, bless him, he is the best brother ever.To cut a long story short, despite me crying and screaming in agony, we actually did pass and can now attempt ther rest of the grading on sunday(sam will if he is well enough).
Vicki

Just a thought - but that can't be healthy, at Guatanemo that would be classed as torture!!

WAY TO GO VICKI AND SAM!!!!!!!

I recently completed a grading which involved a 10 minute horse stance... and yes... it's absolute agony and i probably would have cried too if i wasnt laughing so hard... *i did swear when i was finally allowed to collapse on the floor in a heap though... shhh*

the main point to the timed low stances is to develop not only leg strength but also discipline and focus... breathing and meditation...

they say if you can stand there for 10 minutes you can stand forever... it doesnt hurt MORE you just have to deal with it longer...

we'll see when i have to grade with a 20 minute horse stance won't we???

Again... well done both of you... that is amazing...

Firstly CONGRATULATIONS guys on an excellent achievement.

Now, a serious question to the forum....is there any real benefit to this type of training?
I believe kung fu was originally designed as an exercise regime to condition the body for long hours of meditation, but since we're not sitting on a pillar for eight hours a day is this sort of training worthwhile and still relevant - especially in light of the duress its put you under

Well done on the grading.Ten minutes is a hell of a long time to hold horse stance,especially when you have a weight tied to your belt!! But I have deep reservations about you doing this type of training.

Benefit to be gained ?Strong legs and an increase in willpower but little else unless you train in Dachenquan and make use of the intention.

Should children be standing in horse stance for ten minutes with a weight attached to their belt?IMHO the instructor should be charged with child abuse.This type of training should be strictly reserved for adults as its far too easy to damage young bodies.

Am very nervous now, gradings in 1 hr, Sam is going to attempt it as well, despite being not well.
Vicki

Well naturally we will expect to hear the result!


Mick

Not tellin soooo there
Vicki

well, im just going to be presumptuous and say "congrats on the new grade"

Thank you susan, i will get dad to write all we did down, but yes Sam and i both passed, it was without doubt our toughest grading yet, from any of the styles we do.Sam in particular was truly deserving of his grade, he is very poorly, and to see him, so weak, and his sheer determination to get through 20 mins of nonstop linework, doing energy sapping combinations of kicks and punches, and this was the start of the grading of nearly 3 hrs, made me feel fantasticly proud of him.He did falter near the end, and actually fell asleep in dads arms whilst the scores were being added, he did more than enough.
Four of us graded to 2nd gup today Sam and the others passed with 90%, i however was delighted to get the highest marks at 95%.My proudest achievement was seeing sam pass though as he helped me so much.
Thank you to mum and a big thank you to dad as well, for all your patience and help, your the bestest.
Vicki

Wow, congratulations to you both!!!!!!

Holding stances for 2 minutes almost kills me, let alone 10!!! You guys are both fantastic and inspirational

10 minutes isn't that bad. As long as you have a way to make the mind forget about the pain in your legs, you should be able to go the distance. Perhaps thinking about eating oysters after a grading would help?

Er, congrats guys.

Thanks for sharing your great news, and well done Sam and Vicki.

Congrats guys!

Oysters after a grading Brodius? That's just... eeewwwwww


Mick

I kinda agree... That's just weird brodius.....

You could think about all the fun stuff to come... like legs not working in kata, or being killed in kumite..

Heres our account of our 2nd gup grading in Tang Soo Do and Freestyle.

A few weeks ago sensei, told us we were to attempt our 2nd gup grading on the 6th march 2005.There would be 3 stages to this grading.

Sensei gave us a letter each, asking us to submit a written thesis, on what it means to be a Black Belt?,why we want to be a Black belt?, and Why you started Martial arts, and what we enjoy most about Martial Arts.This was to be handed in to Sensei two weeks before the grading date.

Thursday 4th march 2005

After our regular Tang Soo Do lesson, we were to attempt the first physical part of our grading, ten minutes in horse stance!!!!!!.We were told we had two chances to complete this.Sensei put us into the required stance, then tied a weight to our belts with the weight resting on the floor, if we rose up out of stance the weight would come of the floor,and that would be deemed a fail, as we said we had two chances at this.Two failures meant that we didnt progress through the rest of the grading.This is probably my (vicki greatest challenge).Sam has been unwell with a virus and had not been training for just over a week, and physically was not up to it.Sensei said he could attempt it on fri or sat if he was up too it by then.To cut a very long story short i (vicki) failed my first attempt at around 7 mins, sensei said i could attempt it again fri or sat with Sam, but i was determined to do it, so after a break i tried again.Knowing i was going to struggle Sam begged dad to let him attempt it with me.Together Sam and i completed the longest hour of our lives(10 mins) bless you sam.

Sunday 6th March 2005 10 am

Sam was still not well but his usual determination drove him on, Sensei had set out a written test for us to complete first with 58 questions on terminology, basic principles etc, we had 15 mins to complete this section.We were delighted to hear that both Sam and i got 100% in this section.58/58

Then we moved on to 20mins of non stop line work, incorperating blocks punches and kicks, and many combinations of all of them.

The four of us grading were then equally spaced out, and given a different kata to perform each, at the same time.Then were up two at a time doing different kata at the same time until we had gone through the full 8 kata to our grade.

One at a time we then performed the stance kata in front of sensei and the grading panel.

Next up was self defence, sensei told our opponent to put us in various holds and locks, and we had to get out of the situation, sometimes using two or three different moves for the same holds or locks, there was about 8 locks or holds in total.

Then we moved on to One step, this is where our opponent steps forward throwing a punch or kick of there choice, we had to block and counter the move, this was done approx 6 times each using different blocks and counters .

We then did the same using Three step.

Breakfalls was next, front, back , and side breakfalls.

Kumite was next up, we had to fight our 3 grading partners one at a time for a minute each, kumite was semi contact but no contact to the head or face.

Then we moved on to Breaking, we had to brake a tile with a forearm smash, then break a tile, while sensei held it at waist hight using an axe kick.

Finally to gain extra points, we were brought out one at a time, to do the 8 breathing exercises, that we use after a hetic class to bring our breathing back into focus.

We will post or papers on our website soon, not sure if you will be able to make out our writing, but we will put it up with our scores.The pass rate was 80% Sam and the other two gradees got 90%, i was lucky enough to get 95%.

Vicki

sheesh that is an incredibly involved grading process.....congrats to you both....whats in store for the next grading??

yes.... well done both of you.

That is quite an in depth grading. and if that's what it takes to get 2nd gup, i can't wait to hear about your 1st DAN grading...

again
well done both of you

Dunno what the next grading involves probably the same with a few more gems added , i know for first gup its 12 mins horse stance, and for shodan its 15 mins horse stance. Thank you all for your good wishes etc, we were very pleased with ourselves and despite the horse stance we really did enjoy the grading, we felt like we earnt the grade.

Sam

OMG you guys!!! That is insane!!!

Well done for passing, you'll be better than us all before long

Well done with the grading.

They seem to have a thing about horse stance.Are you training to become a horse?

Hayyyy!!
Sam

Is that what really short horses eat?

Yay we passed our 2nd gup grading in Tang soo do and Freestyle again yesterday
Vicki
x

HEY!!!

WELL DONE.....


.....again

Way to go!
Does this mean you now have to do twice as much work?