Anyone know anything about this style?

Zen Do Kai. Haven't heard that much about it, but I think it's a style of Karate. B)

*Shrug*

no idea but you have my interest up, i might surf abit and see what i can find out about it.

http://www.bobjones.com.au

Zen do kai is part of the Bob Jones Corporation. Interesting to read the site - it appears they only have three coloured belt grades!

I recall reading a blitz mag which had an article on Bob Jones and another on kancho. I could be wrong, but it appears they used to train together.

So how long do you spend in each grade?

good question :thumbwink:. with 3 coloured belt grades i'd say it would be a while.

Who knows? Maybe 6 months for the first grade, a year for the second, and then 5 years for the third.

Hello all.

Zen Do Kai is something I tried about 17 years ago and had to leave when I went to Uni.

The belts go from white to blue to green to brown to black. There are coloured tips inbetween all the belts. I got as far as green belt and brown tips in two gradings. I think that if you do an exceptional job when grading for a colored belt, (ie blue to green), they award a green belt and brown tip. If you stuff it up enough to not make green belt, they award blue belt with green tips (unless you stuff it up completely).

I don't believe they follow the 10 kyu system, but I am the better part of 2 decades out of date.

I cannot remember how long I took to get to green/brown tip. 18 months is my best guess.

Cheers.

Ken.

:thumbwink: thanks for that.

Can you tell us what a typical class entailed?

It isn't that far removed from a GKR class. In fact I think Bob Jones and Kancho Sullivan trained together.

The big difference is the specific strength and fitness requirements for ZDK.

For green belt you were required to do 50 pushups and 50 situps and x minutes free sparring. Blue belt was half of that and Brown belt was double. Black was double that again.

Classes would start with this cardio work and then get into basics/kumite/kata. Punishment would not usually consist of holding a stance as you would in GKR. No, no, it was cardio work. (or you were the sensei's dummy )

At brown belt level, some dojo's (Bendigo in Victoria was one) would teach weapons training. I remember once we started jogging around the streets of Bendigo in our gi's and bare feet. This would include finding a road up a steep rise and doing situps on it . We then proceeded to the park and broke out some bo's and the brown belts did some demo's. It was about this point when I left the dojo. I don't know if it was unusual then, but it would certainly be now with all the insurance woes that sporting clubs have.

Toodles.

Ken.

Hi,

Yes Bob Jones founder of zen do kai and robert sullivan founder of GKR both trained under Sensei Tino Ceberano of the goju style in late 60's early 70's. Just because a student trained under a highly regarded sensei does not mean that student is therefore better or possecces higher levels of skills and knowledge than other students. How long did each train under Sensei Tino and what grade did they reach? Any further similarity between the 2 regards karate skills, styles they formed and personality is academic and opinion.

Bob jones formed ZDK as a primary fighting style. His background was in training bouncers & personal security personnel. Do a search for bob jones, zen do kai, tino ceberano and you will find many informative articles.

20 years ago I met Sensei Tino, and can see why he is held in such high regard. He is a true Sensei, a martial arts master and a man of great honesty and integrity.

with regard to class structure between ZDK & GKR I can only comment on what I've seen at the respective dojo's locally.

ZDK did a lot of one on one practice in stances of basic punches, blocks and kicks. Instead of GKR standing in haikadach fighting the invisible man.

ZDK uses punch & kick boards, and does one on one training of "illegal" techniques eg. elbow strikes, open hand strikes.

GKR focused on the very basics & kata, ZDK focuses on fighting kumite.

GKR holds stances for several minutes. Also uses squat kicks and sumo stance as punishment for whole class when some students don't say loud "hai" after every pause in the sensei's instructions. ZDK focused more on correct movement through stances than the initial stationary position of the stance. Only saw individual students do pushups for not paying attention.

GKR had more controlled sparring with little body contact. ZDK had very aggressive sparring with a lot of heavy body contact. (not to the head).

GKR students were mostly children and their parents (family orientated). ZDK was mostly teenagers and young adulds. (tattoos, very short hair, aggessive/fight attitude,)

GKR had junior belts as instructors, ZDK only had full black belts as instructors.

students at GKR & ZDK showed the same respect to their sensei's.

:thumbwink: Thank you very much Zen and Ken.

I remeber when bob jones karate first started back when I was a kid, from what iI have learnt from it and from the web it is an evolving style. When it first started it was Karate based then when the 1980's hit it took on aspects of kick boxing ( which was very popular at the time) and now it has evolved further still with aspects of shoot fighting and brazilian Ju JUIT su, similar to UFC style.

So basically it is not true karate in it's linage and a evolving stlye popular with security guards and bouncers.
AS a bi-line Bob Jones did the security/crowd control for the Rolling Stones when they toured Australia in the 1970's,He also used his black belts to support.

A black belt takes 1 year to obtain then from there it reverts back to the tradtional system of 1st dan 1 year, 2nd Dan 2 years, 3 rd Dan 3 years and so on.

So a 2nd Dan Black Belt in ZEN do KAI would be the equilverlent of a 2 kyu in GKR based on time studied.

Completely wrong - would love to see a one year black belt from ZDK. You are mistaking the uchi deshi program with general students.

A nidan in ZDK would be equivalent to sandan - yondan in GKR in terms of syllabus however would also have done a hell of a lot of contact fighting - somrthing GKR do not.

Hi Piranha.
Your comments are appreciated, but what do you base this statement on?
What are the requirements for a yondan (there are I believe only 2) in GKR and ZDK? Does contact fighting make you a better martial artist or just give you something to brag about?

[/quote]

Hi Piranha.
Your comments are appreciated, but what do you base this statement on?
What are the requirements for a yondan (there are I believe only 2) in GKR and ZDK? Does contact fighting make you a better martial artist or just give you something to brag about?
[/quote]


Hi Wanderer,

I firmly believe that whilst not for everyone contact does provide far more realistic feedback. A classic example is the making of a fist - I have seen countless martial artists make perfect fists when striking thin air however have them strike a medicine ball held by someone and they roll or sprain their wrists, skin knuckles, etc.

Now a medicine ball, whilst having some contours, also only goes partway to simulating a human skull. A skull is made of remarkably different and varying substances - bone, cartilage, flesh all have differing strengths and of course if you impact on them then you will receive varying results. If you have not trained correctly to strike these surfaces then in all likelihood what is the result - a broken hand.

Just one of the benfits of contact that non contact practioners overlook.

Yondan in ZDK? - I am not up to date but from memeory extensive knowledge of kata and relevant bunkai including 3 person attack-defence scenarios and also two weapons (wood).

Yondan in GKR? - definetely no weapons, no three man scenario that I am aware of. Just kata and more kata isn't it?

Just kata and more kata isn't it?

Sadly, that's correct.

Starting to look that way....
Must admit I did find it a hellova lot harder than I thought it would be to go from non contact to semi/full contact. Years of conditioning not to hit something sticks.

Was there much protective equipment in ZDK?

Matt,


The usual - mitts, shin/insteps, m/guards. Some went for bag mitts like myself.

It is years since I had any exposure to ZDK so my info is probably out of date - discovered Muay Thai some seventeen years ago and it slowly took over over a period of a couple of years and then never looked back (although I continue to practice Tensho, Seiunchin and Sanchin).

You know what I hate people who post without reading your post then say what you posted is wrong. HEY -------- READ

I said from what I had read on the web ( LOOK UP ZEN DO KAI .COM)
I have no knowlege or experience with zen do kai only from what is on the web

SO HOW lond to get a BLACK belt then????? NOT 5 years I bet

[/quote]

You know what I hate people who post without reading your post then say what you posted is wrong. HEY -------- READ

I said from what I had read on the web ( LOOK UP ZEN DO KAI .COM)
I have no knowlege or experience with zen do kai only from what is on the web

SO HOW lond to get a BLACK belt then????? NOT 5 years I bet

[/quote]


I see nothing on the web that sets one year to get black belt as the standard and I know from personal experience that this is not correct. Some may have made it in this time however of the cases that I know one was a former professional boxer and another a personal trainer who did a form of the uchi deshi program.

If you do not think that they produce the goods which seems to be inferred from your post (nidan equivalent to 2nd kyu - right!!!) then that is your opinion - I am sure that some of the nidans who have been through the blood marathon would disagree.

BTW Ironpalm you get worked up pretty easy dont you - one thing I hate is those that get all courageous and insult on the web. Silly boy.

[quote=Piranha,Dec 22 2004, 06:18 AM]
[/quote]

You know what I hate people who post without reading your post then say what you posted is wrong. HEY -------- READ

I said from what I had read on the web ( LOOK UP ZEN DO KAI .COM)
I have no knowlege or experience with zen do kai only from what is on the web

SO HOW lond to get a BLACK belt then????? NOT 5 years I bet

[/quote]


I see nothing on the web that sets one year to get black belt as the standard and I know from personal experience that this is not correct. Some may have made it in this time however of the cases that I know one was a former professional boxer and another a personal trainer who did a form of the uchi deshi program.

If you do not think that they produce the goods which seems to be inferred from your post (nidan equivalent to 2nd kyu - right!!!) then that is your opinion - I am sure that some of the nidans who have been through the blood marathon would disagree.

BTW Ironpalm you get worked up pretty easy dont you - one thing I hate is those that get all courageous and insult on the web. Silly boy.

[/quote]

So you admit it takes one year to get a black belt with special circumstances, Why not give Mike Tyson a black belt and Koysta Zu they are pro boxers, hell lets give Jeff Fenech one as well, YOU know while were at it lets give Rocky Balboa one!!.

JOKE!!!

Now for the slowler people in the class who are STILL stugglling to keep up with this thread, The question was What is Zen DO KAI ? Upon comparing GKR to TIME SPENT training in ZEN DO KAI you can get a belt comparision NOT a skill comparision, my original post was such as this is a GKR website.

If you feel you want to start a I LOVE ZEN DO KAI SITE then do. You could probably start it under.

WWW. ZENDOKAIBLACKBELTdepends.com.au or

WWW.Ilike2getonMAsitesandbagthierstyle.com or

www.I GET SUCKED IN EASY BY PEOPLE ON THE NET.com

One thing the fishing has been great and I got me a Piranha.

mmkay...
Personal attacks arent tolerated guys....its in the conditions when you registered.
May I strongly suggest we keep to the facts and civilised discussions we've been having thus far.
This is a mellow place......dont bugger it up.

And the point of your post is? Seems to be fairly sad that a middle aged married man indulges in agenda trolling or is your bio incorrect and in fact you are a teenager with about five minutes in MA training?

One thing you overlook is that these two people I know off had skills far in advance of yourself before commencing and underwent five day a week training and were examined and graded along the way - as Zen Do Kai is not a "collect a kata" style but rather focuses on kumite then it would be nothing more than revenue collection to force someone with professional skills to commence at white belt. Can you imagine trying to teach a former pro boxer how to punch? As a supposed former boxer yourself you should be able to see how ridiculous this situation would be - do B and W belts in GKR try and impart their extensive knowledge and teach pro boxers how to punch properly? LOL

You say the fishing has been good - with the amount of time your spending on your rod your handle should be Hairy Palm not Iron Palm!

Okay enough is enough no more sacarstic posts, I apoligise for upsetting the people whom I may have offenended. And to any young kids whom may have read such pity banter.

(Although the MIDDLE AGED comment hurt a bit). (34 Middle Aged!!!!)

Anyway the purpose of this thread was what is ZEN DO KAI about?
So Could anyone please change the topic and give us an answer , I have only had web experience of it and I found some guy under goggle search

ZEN DO KAI MARTIAL ART NEW ZEALAND SEAN PURCELL

he had no prevoius experence and acheived his

Black Belt in 20 months (shodan HO)
9 months later his Shodan
17 months later his Nidan
24 months later his Sandan

So if I am correct he was a 2nd Degree Black Belt in just under 6 years, please correct if I am wrong.
By the way I have started to use Nair hair removal for my palms and it is working a treat. Thanks for your suggestion pirana

Back when i was doing Bac FuDo. Zen do Kai started up in Canberra this was 1987. They did a lot to promote kick boxing in canberra at the time. The main problem they had was the connection to crime. It was a strange combination, to work for i think it was star security you had to train with them, this meant lots of students. It also meant blackbelts were flowing out 10 a week or so it seemed.
Their were rumors of 16-17 year old students regularly fighting in public often on planned targets.
The head instructor at the time ( note no respect as Sensei) was Greg Hinton, previous to starting the dojo Greg had spent 3 years in Goulburn jail for agraviated asault. he was a 3rd dan his wife was a 2nd dan. To show how freaky it was his eldest son is named Conan. Greg's senior student stabbed a man in the Hungry Horse night club in the early 90's. From then on it went down hill, Greg was arrested for trafficking Steroids. Later in 2001 he was shot through the stomach skin (not Fatal) by the man at arms of the Rebels motor cycle gang in Canberra.

In Case anyone thinks im full of it, i briefly had his daughter work for me. I was also offered steriods by him personally in 1989 at the gym i went to. Some of the dates etc may be slightly out but you get the picture.

Cheers
Freek

Hey GoJu Freek

Does this mean you're a canberran too?

Some of the stuff you said sounds pretty familiar - the name Greg Hinton definitely stands out too.

My grandfather used to work at the Goulburn Jail as a prison officer - he may well have actually known him.

The stuff that used to happen with the rebels motor cycle gang was pretty awful - not sure, but I think they all got cleaned up a few years ago?

I was talking to someone at GKR the other night, and they said they used to do zen do kai in QLD, and when they moved down here, tried it out, but didn't like the "military" feel of how the club was run down here, plus they didn't practise kata either...

Interesting that two clubs of the same style appear to be run quite differently, with their different locations...

Yes i am back in Canberra again, i seem to come and go.

Obviously during the expansion period of styles its harder to control the new dojo's. Sometimes this is a plus and the dojo reflects the Sensei in a good way, however in this case it too closely reflected the instructor in all the wrong ways.
Qld is the base of Bob Jones Corporation so they would possibly even train with Bob Jones or senior instructors. As too what it is like now in Canberra i could not say.
How long does it take to wash away a bad reputation such as they had. I know even in 10-20 years i would not let my kids or friends and family even enter a dojo connected with this style or the people involved.

Cheers
Freek

Gojufreek,

Actually Victoria is the head of the BJC with Bob Jones living in Ivanhoe - I trained personally with him and bodyguards for quite a number of years. The head of QLD broke away I believe about five years ago.

With regards to Greg Hinton - without having any first hand knowledge I cannot comment but have heard rumours, the fact that he was removed as soon as some of these came to light would speak volumes methinks.

With large organisations come rotten apples occassionaly - even GKR has had a number of these.

Thanks Piranha, I had always thought it was QLd base for BJC or use to be. Obviously Greg did not do ZDK any favors in terms of reputation and i know he was not still involved in 2001 when he had the Rebels incident, as to when he left i could not say.

What is it like training with Bob Jones himself. Maybe you could give us a idea of what it was like. I guess it would be like training with Kanyo Sullivan, for GKR students as they both came through Tino Cebrano just went different directions.

Piranha what do you study now?


Cheers
Freek

Gojufreek,

Training with Bob Jones was extremely intense and enjoyable. I started as a young boy (father was a boxer) and went through to my early twenties although by the age of fifteen I was pretty heavily into kickboxing and then Muay Thai which I continue to train today.

I have trained with goju kai (although moreso Paul) and yes they are very different pathways but extremely understandable and complement each other. From what I recall Bob only had the highest praise for Tino.

Hell of a lot of street work, physical conditioning and thinking outside the square via encouragement in a range of events such as kickboxing, grappling, runs ,etc when I was involved - as for now I could not honestly say.

Hi

I was just searching the web and came across this interesting message forum, moreso the topic. i have trained in ZDK for 19 years, i am a 3rd degree black belt and have the highest repsect for bob jones. i have worked for him, trained with him, and lived with him for a period, this man is so motivated, and such an amazing thinker it is ridiculous.

in a nutshell, white belt, white/blue tip, blue, blue/greentip, green, green/brown tip, green/2 brown tips, brown, brown/black tip, brown/2 black tips, black belt(probationary 1st degree) then starts the dan structure, and as a guide yes it is 1 year to 1st, 2 for 2nd etc, but there may be circumstances where this may change, for instance, my training for 4th degree wouldnt take 4 years as i have already had a great exposure to weapons training which is what the 4th degree grading is.

its been interesting to read the posts to this topic, just looking from the outside that is. head office is and always has been vic, malcolm anderson broke away approx 8 years ago in qld, we do not teach 'illegal' techniques, yes there was a jet black(uchi deshi) system for outstanding athletes, bob holds the utmost respect for tino ceberano, one comment made was right on the money, the bad apples comment, due to sheer weight of numbers there are always going to be bad apples, but you will find that they dont last too long.

i do not run this whole bag another system thing, its not nice, its not professional, and it achieves nothing. opinions are exactly that, but they also have a place.

sorry for the poor formatting of this post but i just typed as a thought of what to say, so again i apologise for that. hope a couple of things have been clarified here, and i hope you all continue to enjoy your training.

yours in bushido
stuart grant
3rd degree black belt ZDK
grade 3 black belt instructor arnis eskrima kali

*whispers - welcome to the forum *

no need to whisper, but thanks, haha

Welcome Stu!

It's always interesting to hear stuff about other styles, experiences, etc.

, and thanks for the information (and to all those who have trained and posted in this thread). It just goes to show how much rumour and inaccuracies can give you a false impression of something, and its wrong we just tend to believe them. Thanks for setting the record straight.

Yeah.
Been a while since I visited this thread but in my youth I recall the Bob Jones Corporation having a bad rep. Seems every thug bouncer was trained by BJC, then they were asked to help set up the doorman regulatory committee! Nice to hear another viewpoint. Why does the press only focus on bad shit.

Cos there's so many do-gooders running around now who will lap it up and nod self-righteously? And want someone to make laws so they don't have to handle the responsibility of making their own decisions..


Mick

Dear Grant-sensei

G'day mate, great to read your valued contribution to the forum and as a former student of Bob Jones-sensei, I would agree with you.

While I may not agree with all of the ideas, I believe Jones-sensei has never stopped looking for new ideas.

When I trained in ZDK (1983-1992) it did tend to attract a high percentage of 'bad eggs' however, most (if not all) did not last very long.

I hope to be in Australia & Melbourne later in the year and plan to do some training.

jamata

Big

Hi, my name is Steve Armstrong and its all been very interesting reading peoples comments on Zen Do Kai in Canberra. A lot of what has been written is incorrect. I thought that I would tell the real story of Zen Do Kai in Canberra from someone who was actually there.

I began training in Zen Do Kai in Wodonga NSW under Sensei Peter Rowe back in 1981 and moved to Canberra in 1982.

Before I left Wodonga I had asked my Sensei Peter Rowe if there was a ZDK dojo in Canberra and he gave me the contact phone number of Sampei Tony Ballerini.

Upon arriving in Canberra in late 1981, I found that the Sensei Zoron had left ZDK with all of his students to form his own style called Zen Do Ryu. I saw Sensei Zoron once perform katas in at Copland College Canberra during a demonstration. I realised that their katas were the same as ZDK. I saw them once more a few weeks later performing Katas in the Belconnen Mall and that was the last I saw or heard of them.

Eventually I contacted Sempai Tony Ballerini who at that point was not training and he said that he could start up some classes if I could bring some students along so I gathered my school friends from Copland College and this is how Zen Do Kai in Canberra was resurrected.

Myself, Bart Henrick and Peter Johnson were the main top students of ZDK in Canberra for during 1982 and 1983, trained hard for 2 years with instructor Sempai Tony Bellerini. Many students came and went but we stayed. Sensei Peter Rowe was our head instructor even though at that time he was based in Wodonga. He would routinely come to Canberra to grade and instruct us and his other students from Albury-Wodonga would come to Canberra as well for those events and like wise we would travel down to Albury-Wodonga.

Sensei Peter Rowe was a fantastic instructor and he would arange weekend training camps with all sorts of activities and challenges for the Canberra Students. Also during 1983 we were joined by instructor Sempai Judith Tyrell.

In 1984 we were training at the Police Boys club in Turner where many boxers trained and we saw a UK WKA kickboxer named Les Smith training in the boxing area. He trained with a us and later joined the style, very quickly climbing the ranks because of his traditional karate and kickboxing skills. Eventually Les bacame an instructor at the 3rd Dan level.

In 1984 Instructor Les Smith was now teaching ZDK classes and kickboxing classes and during that time Greg Hinton who had been learning boxing for some time became one of instructor Les Smith's students in ZDK. Greg trained hard and rose through the belts. During this time the first full contact kicking events were held in Canberra and those events were organised by Les Smith and Greg Hinton with their stable of very tough kickboxers.

Tony Ballerini left ZDK in 1984 and would return periodically. ZDK in Canberra had changed a lot due to the influence of kickboxing by instructor Les Smith and the new people who were coming through. Kickboxing was now becoming a main focus of the style. I left not long after instructor Tony Ballerini but returned in late 1986 and throughout 1987 to regular traditional ZDK classes.

I noticed that ZDK had changed very much upon my return. Sensei Greg Hinton was now the head instructor with dojo's all over Canberra. Sensei Les Smith was also still a senior instructor and an excellent one at that. Sensei Greg Hinton was also into bodybuilding in a big way and bought a gym in Queanbeyan and was a competitor in Canberra ACT bodybuilding competitions.

I trained in Woden Canberra as Sensei Greg Hinton would come to take the classes. I was probably one of the longest training students in Canberra at that time would hadn't bothered to go for black as I just liked to train. Sensei Greg knew me well and one night after he'd been watching me teach classes a few times he presented me with a black belt, Sho Dan-ho.

Eventually I ended up teaching my own classes in Woden Canberra under Sensei Greg Hinton.

I left in 1988 but returned throughout 1990 to join the ZDK kickboxing classes in Tuggeranong taught under Sensei Norm Kerniram. I vaguely remember hearing that Bob Jones has asked Sensei Greg Hinton to leave but who really knows? Not that it is important now after so many years have past. Also around that time I think that Sensei Les Smith had also left.

I've read a lot of the negative comments on this site about Greg Hinton and ZDK in general. I can say that as a ZDK instructor during that time I never witnessed any crime or thuggery and that for myself and the classes I taught it was just training karate like any other martial arts club. Anything that may have occurred wasn't done through the club itself but carried out by a few individuals acting on their own accord.

One comment I read is that one person wrote they that wouldn't let there children train with ZDK even today. I thought about that and think the comment is very short sighted. The reason is after all of these years have passed by and I'm now 43yrs old. Zen Do Kai's influence goes beyond the physical that you carry with for as long as you will live.

I'll explain. Its easy to be strong or feel strong when you are young, fit and training. But it is the mental strength that gets forged through years of training that will carry you through life when the body declines through ageing or injury. The discipline of pushing your mind and body after years of training, the confidence you develop will stay with you when things don't go your way in your work life and personal life. The fortitude, perseverance and indomitable spirit will stay with you. Every morning when I look in the mirror and see my Bushido cross I am reminded of who I truly am no matter what anybody says to me and no matter what might happen to me. Even after all these years.

The ZDK legacy has flowed onto my son. I train him myself. He is a very high achiever. People who meet him say he is very confident and holds his posture so well. Of course he knows all about ZDK, the Bushido spirit, mental discipline, self control & humility. It is the mental side of the training which is what is really important to carry you through life even though people tend to concentrate for years on just the physical side of martial arts.

My wife once said to me that ZDK take themselves too seriously with the brotherhood mentallity and I said to her thats why its important, its because the training is really a way of life and that it really means something, it changes you for the better.

I know that there is a small Zen Do Kai class still training at the Canberra Uni during the week, a kickboxing class and a regular ZDK class under Sensei Steve.


I hope this clears up a few holes in the posts about ZDK in Canberra.

Steve Armstrong.

It must be somewhat annoying to read misinformation about something you are passionate about. The internet fortunately makes it easier to correct misapprehensions. Thanks for telling your story.

Im Pretty sure that Dean Woodhams is the owner of the Zen Do Kai name in W.A. Or the President. Im Pretty sure he has the franchise now

Hi Steve welcome.

From the sounds of your experiences we probably hung out in the same places in canberra. Thanks for your insight into ZDK it sounds like it has got some bad press and i must admit its hard to disassociate a person from a organisation. I appreciate your comments, i have heard mainly good things since this time. Im obviously the one who wouldnt go near ZDK in a pink fit, but honestly its from Greg's association. I remember training at Steel City gym with him and his wife, i think Conan was about 1-2 years old it all seemed nice enough.

But i also remember seeing Greg take apart a friend of mine Jamie at the Hungry Horse probably for bumping into him in a crowded bar. I still dont know why. Jamie was about 70kg and 17 years old so nothing to prove, probably never had a fight in his life, even that wasnt a fight it was a mauling. I was also their when Greg's mate (who i saw him with almost everytime they were out, but dont know his name) Get involved in a stabbing incident. I dont know what happened but their was a lots of blood and it wasnt theirs.

Since then Greg appears in the news now and again, i think the last time was when he was shot by the rebels for dealing in their area.

Anyway, prehaps i gave ZDK a bad rap, and for that im sorry.
But i still stick by my claim, i would not associate myself with any school which Greg was instructing etc. That to me would be like taking my 4 year old daughter to a rapist to be baby sat.

The luxury is its free choice who and where i train with and their is lots choice.

So Steve what style are you doing currently or still ZDK. If its something new how does it compare to ZDK positives and negatives.


cheers
Freek

Goju Freak - "But i also remember seeing Greg take apart a friend of mine Jamie at the Hungry Horse probably for bumping into him in a crowded bar. I still dont know why. Jamie was about 70kg and 17 years old so nothing to prove, probably never had a fight in his life, even that wasnt a fight it was a mauling. I was also their when Greg's mate (who i saw him with almost everytime they were out, but dont know his name) Get involved in a stabbing incident. I dont know what happened but their was a lots of blood and it wasnt theirs"

You were probably referring to me as Gregs' friend that night. I was his Shogun. I was there to back him up and keep him out of trouble if that was possible. I would like to forget the Hungry Horse days. I wore some of that grief as well.

I shadowed him him for years. For those who knew him well will attest to the fact that he was a very generous man to those around him. I stayed until the end when we form Australian Freestyle and broke away from BJC. As ThunderArm dojo's we made the mistake of grading Robert Wilesmith to Kru and letting him start ThunderLeg Dojo's in Sydney.

I haven't heard from Greg for about 2 years now. He ended up moving to Sydney and riding with the Outlaws. If anyone knows where he is, or how to contact him, it's be appreciated.

Yes, there were times that he did loose the plot, but he was certainly a very talented Shihan. Strangely enough, he was excellent with kids. At the height of ZDK in Canberra, we had 35 classes operating in halls around Canberra and Quenbeyan.

I have started back with ZDK recently in QLD and the atmosphere of the style has certainly changed. Legalities and insurance have changed it forever.

For hose who graded with us will attest that you spilt blood and earnt your belts the hard way.

Yours in Bushido
Grant

full contact or not , i believe if a punch or kick is thrown my way and i defend i then my karate training has payed off. full contact or not. really at the end of the day isn;t that what it's about

Zen Do Kai is a hybrid style of Goju Ryu, Kickboxing/Mauy Thai, Judo, Jui Jitsu, BJJ. They use several Goju Kata and many weapons from different systems. ZDK was an attempt to bring the best parts of many martial arts and put them into one style.

I have never done ZDK but a friend of mine has and he said they focus on fitness and kickboxing drills alot. I have trained in Golden Knights (Kin Bushi Ryu) which is a break away group, that has gone away from the sport aspect and towards the self defence aspect.

hope this information helps

Hi. Well, I can see that Zen Do Kai has caused quite a lengthy and fascinating conversation, so I'm just going to add that I have been training in ZDK for a few years now and I absolutely love it. However, as it is the only style I have been trained in for this long (I occassionally used to train in Muay Thai), I don't see how I can make accurate comparisons. So, I might just leave it at that here and if more questions arise later, I'll be happy to join other Zenni people in answering them.

Just thought I would add my experiences and memories to this discussion.

I attained a brown belt in ZDK, and trained the whole time with Greg, mainly at the top Charnwood shop on Wednesdays. These days I think it's some sort of child-care centre. Friday night training was at Steel City Gym, in Belconnen. We also had other groups at Humpy Hall in Scullin, and sometimes at Copeland Collage and a grading once in Waniassa.

The training was tough. Brutal almost. There was often blood, lots of sweat, tears and some pretty angry people sometimes. Plenty of calloused knuckles from all those pushups. I remember at a grading once a guy throwing up into his gi and forced to keep going. I have never trained so hard since those days, and the mental toughness that this style forced me to adopt has stayed with me, and always will. Full-contact free sparring is the most physically demanding thing I've ever done.

Greg once said to me that he doesn't have friends, only acquaintences. He drove a tough black ute and was an axe of a man. You wouldn't like to pick him - he definately played for keeps. I once saw him in a grading get foot-sweeped by a brown belt guy. Sweeping a higher belt was not acceptable, and when Greg got to his feet, the guy really copped it. In training though, he always had a professionalism about him. He was tough, and you would never want to get on his bad side, but at the end of day, he reacted well to those who were there to learn and train.

Back in the mid 80's, home computing had taken off, and there was no end of games that featured karate, kung fu, ninjas, samurais and every other sort of martial art (remember Yie-ar-kung-fu?). With such a martial art consciousness pervading the schools and minds of the day, it seemed that everyone had at least a few karate moves up their sleve. It was a time for home-made nunchucks, throwing stars, knives and knuckle-dusters. I remember that Greg had some sort of small shop in Braddon (next to a garage) where you could buy any type of weapon you wanted. I remember going there with a friend picking up some chucks and some pretty deadly throwing stars (some of which are still lost on the top of Mt Rogers somewhere...)

I still have all my copies of "Bushido" magazine lying around somewhere. Spandau Ballet featured in one of them - remember them?

Reading this thread has brought back many memories. Just thought I'd chip in with a few of my own. Hangouts of the day were PotBlack, Captain Gregs, Hungry Horse, Blind Beggars...

Regards to the old training crew. Jason, Scott (remember how you said you would beat up Greg if you ever got good enough?), Bart (one flexible dude!), Michael (used all that time with his busted leg to invent new stretching techniques), Eric (dodging falling rain at Steel City on night - funny stuff. Great guy), Dianne (wife to Greg and great person. I hope you're OK), and so many others that I can't remember the names of now....

Interesting times. Rottweilers, steroids, pushups to the tune of "hurts so good", Samantha Fox, Mawashi blocks, axe kicks and scissor takedowns.

It's funny that some people think that we don't train as hard as we used to in ZDK, because these days there are more women and even some children (or "munchkins" as we so affectionately call them). However, I too have watched a friend throw up in his gi during a grading, and I always seem to have skin taken off my knuckles from bagwork. I have also ended up in hospital with a shot of morphine after a test night, so when some of the older guys who have been training for yonks start telling us "This is nothing - you should have seen the old days", I really wonder how much it's changed. I really have respect for people who have taken their training seriously but have managed to have fun and share their knowledge throughout the years, and I hope that the spirit of the ZDK training will live on (despite health & safety laws and whatever else governments inflict on us ).

Hello Goju Freek, Your friend Jamie wasn't Jamie Royal by any chance? Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've only just reset my password this morning as I had forgotten it. It has been nearly 2 years since I've looked at this forum.

I didn't mention this before because it was off the Zen Do Kai topic but I have also enjoyed training with National Taekwon-do and GKR back in the mid early 90's. I ended up leaving Taekwondo even though I really loved it. It was at a time when I had just joined the Army Reserve which I was in for 3 years and that coupled with my regular shift work job took my time away from training. In hindsight I should never have left National Taekwondo as I enjoyed the discipline and strength of the traditional style. That's sort of funny because I also really enjoyed kickboxing training too which is like the other side of the coin. I guess I had an appreciation of both the sport aspect and also the traditional side of training and maybe that's part of what being a martial artist is all about.

I had left martial arts altogether in 1995 and ended up playing baseball and softball and the change was good after so many years of what seemed half my lifteime spent in Zen Do Kai, Kickboxing and Taekwondo to do something totally unrelated and team orientated.

Now I'm back at martial arts training again and I'm starting from scratch and enjoying a slower pace and I want to enjoy the journey of a new beginning. The styles I trained in before were primarily concentrating on striking techniques. When I was younger this is what I loved, all that kicking and sparring, I couldn't get enough of it.

Now that I'm so much older and in my mid 40's I actually have an appreciation for Kata's that was secondary to my focus before. I used to view kata as just an unimportant requirement for my next belt and training in kickboxing there was no kata, just lots of drills. I doubt very much that I will ever be as good as I was when I was much younger. I just can't see that I could spend so much time sparring and kicking like I used to be able to do because of my age. But this isn't my focus now. What is important to me now is just being able to train in a club with a great atmosphere and enthusiasm. To learn new techniques that also involve self defence like Hapkido and also train in Taekwondo Bongsul. To train in something I enjoy and stay with it until old age. The challenge now will be to just try and improve as best I can, to learn as much as I can, become conditioned and more flexible, help others, rather than just focus on trying to be the best fighter.

My very good friend Bart Henrick is also back at training too here in Canberra, he was a Zen Do Kai 2nd Dan. One day I hope to catch up with my old Zen Do Kai Sensei Peter Rowe who is currently living on the Gold Coast in QLD. I know he is now a probationary 7th Dan, he was a 3rd Dan when I first trained with him and an excellent martial artist. My friend Bart and I also intend to catch up with our old mentor and Zen Do Kai instructor Tony Ballerini (best kicker and kicking instructor I ever saw) who is still living in Canberra.

Well I'll have to read all of these other posts now that I'm back on the forum,

Cheers,
Steve Armstrong
Canberra ACT.