How much do you use Japanese (or other depending on your art) terminology? We don't use a lot of Japanese terminology but the question came to me while reading a series of posts where, as soon as someone disagreed with another person's position on a topic that person started arguing their position and the amount of terminology skyrocketed. What was a discussion seemed to become an exercise in how many martial arts terms could be fit into a single message.

So how much do you use in discussions or training?


Mick

Not a great deal. But I think its important for students to learn some terminology (by osmosis) as they progress through their training - simply so they can understand the terminology when they come across it in other clubs, books, videos, websites etc.

It shouldn't be a big deal. I certainly wouldn't even expect that someone can count to 10 in Japanese before dan grade. After all, its not something that will help you in a fight.

Mike

I like learning the japanese names for whatever, ive learnt lots by osmosis as mike said.

My sensei actually asks questions at the end of a training session, he goes along the line and the questions get harder the higher the grade, i really enjoy the challenge to get the questions right each week.

Is it important to know the japanese, yes and no, no not really we are english so why not do it in english, and yes because when grading sensei just says the japanese names for techniques , combinations etc.
I like to learn the japanese, because im interested in the japanese, and the langauge the whole thing really, its a bit like doctors isnt it, they seem to use latin to describe medicenes and parts of the body all the time.Why not use English?

Sam

We, the English speaking folk tend to use an awful lot of words from other countries and cultures, without even realising most of them. It's true, we have changed them, morphed them perhaps to fit the accent of the day. But ultimatly they come from elsewhere. So why not use the intended names for the moves?
Now, personally I prefare the Japanese words. They harness the move so well in a quick, no nonsense way. Take for instance "jodan uke". That's quicker and easier than saying "head level block". But not just any old block. It's THAT block. Need I go on?

I'm sure some smart arse will pull a number of words out of the hat that are totally irrelevant to prove me wrong.

I'm with you there Si - I like that the Japanese names for techniques are actually used as names/identifiers and not only a description of a technique. I guess it adds a little to the image of mystery surrounding a style too.
We don't use much Japanese terminology in karate but for jujitsu the students are required to have a set of words in romaji learned and also be able to count to 10 (in romaji) in order to grade to yellow belt, and subsequent sets for each higher grade. We also incorporate some etiquette terms (including Sensei, obviously, but also greetings, requests for help, etc) and these are becoming part of the grading requirement as well. This relates in part to the discipline side of things, and promotes formal etiquette among students and instructors.

we do learn basic Korean i believe learning the different stances and techniques in the traditional language is respect for that style you are learning, as many martial arts come with a heavy spiritual background and are taught around respect for yourself and your opponent, depends what you want to get out of your martial art, some people just enjoy fighting, i personally enjoy learning every aspect i can and believe it helps make me a better practitioner

If I play boulle should I speak in French? If I play kabbadi should I speak punjabi? Maybe we can use some important keywords but I think many people go too overboard.

Did the Japanese use Okinawan Hogen when they were learning karate? Like hell they did! Did the Okinawans use Chinese terminology when they were learning chuan-fa? Well, initially probably they did. But they pretty quickly started adapting the art to their own needs and so used their own terminology. Come forward in time, do the Koreans use Japanese terminology to pay homage to Taekwondo's roots in Shotokan Karate? They certainly don't, they actually put as much distance as they can between themselves and karate.

Each culture bends the art they've got from another culture to their own needs - which is only natural.



I actually think that most arts are pseudo-spiritual - they may on the surface have the appearance of being a 'spiritualistic' pursuit but it is rarely more than skin-deep. These things are usually just trappings to lure in westerners who are looking for something spiritual or esoteric.

All just my opinion of course, no aggravation intended, but that's how I see it.

Mike

i still believe modernised martial art forms don't show enough respect to its original form, again this can be a back and forth argument as you stated though it has been converted to english of course we dont just speak korean for moves just every now and then u have a certain move that is still in korean etc, it helps that my brother trains me so its more relaxed in some sense.
as for spiritual i dont think i have enough understanding of other martial arts, as for my style and i believe most korean styles talk about an inner Ki or an inner energy which is kind of spiritual from what i believe someone please correct me if im wrong i only have a very vague understanding more would be nice to know

I see what you're saying, although I'm suspicious of the idea of 'original form'. Most (if not all) arts that are practised today have been modified dramatically over the last 50 to 80 years, so it could be argued there is nothing original about them. But yes, people should try to fully understand an art before they go off changing it. Otherwise its simply change for change's sake.



I think when people talk about ki/chi they're usually referring to an esoteric ability to generate power that is not to do with their muscle strength. This doesn't strike me as very spiritual to be honest, they're just wanting to be able to hit harder.

Mike

Then it makes sense to keep as much of the original language as possible surely? Changing the words means the result is dependant on one person's or a few people's interpretation which has as many flaws as leaving technique itself open to interpretation.

For me, I travel to Japan every year for training. I bring teachers from Japan for my students. I teach them Japanese so they can understand what they are being asked to do when we have visitors.

Many Sports / Arts have terms that are part of the activity such as golf, Birdie, Par, Four etc etc, Tennis has deuce, love etc, Cricket has numerous terms that you need to learn for field postion or type of shot or bowl.

Therefore to me if you are teaching Karate from an Okinawan /Japanese perspective then its natural to use those terms. If you want to call things in english there is nothing wrong with that, but using both japanese and english so students learn would be more appropriate.

Otherwise you will end up with Blackbelts who have no idea when they travel to Japan /Okinawa or attend a seminar with an overseas visitor.

Just my 2 cents worth

i agree 100% good way of putting it

Reading through some of the older threads here, I noticed that there are people who try to sound more knowledgeable by using more terminology - to confuse the great unwashed and all. So I've been experimenting. And you get a lot more of the "ooh" factor when you throw in lots of terminology. The most interesting result was a comment from our junior students. Most of them have been training for a year or more and their comment on our merit certificate terminology sessions was that "*Regular Sempai* hurts us but now we're actually learning stuff". They aren't really learning anything practical but they FEEL like they are cos it's easier to impress people by talking in a foreign language than by dropping them on their butts I guess.

It depends. When I was a kid studying Wado Ryu we used a good amount of Japanese terminology. But 'uke' was always translated as 'block'. We never discussed the possible nuances that might be indicated by the Japanese ideogram for 'uke'. If someone had said 'it could be translated as 'receive'' then I might have thought about it differently. But no, uke was just a block.

So we used the terminology but it was not a particularly informative process.



Agreed, and something to be avoided I think. If we use terminology it should be for a good reason and it should inform the learning process, rather than act as an esoteric smokescreen.

Mike

It should also be right. I've been trying to find out where we got the response "oos!" from, with no luck... Cos it's not a real word - it's a bastardisation of a slang word. I think I'll stick with hai instead.

Is it not? From my experience the phrase seems to be more prevalent with the more traditional Shotokan clubs....... Research needed I think!

Closest I've found so far is a mangling of "so so so" which is a casual form of "so desu" - "that's right"... LOL makes so much more sense to hear this rather than reading it!

I believe it's written as 'ossu' rather than 'oos'. Supposedly a shortening of 'onegaishimasu' and only really appropriate as an expression of camaraderie so not something you'd use in polite company.


Mick

I believe 'Osu' is slang that probably originates from male macho university students in the 1930s(?). The most likely meaning I think I've seen is something like 'I promise to persevere'. I've heard many other supposed or imagined meanings tho. I think my favourite is 'Yo MoFo!'.

Its great fun in our classes sometimes, with the ex-GKR'ers "Hai"-ing on my every word, the ex-Japanese Karateka "Osssssu"-ing and my other students just raising their eyebrows quizically.

Mike

I'd like to play Devils Advocaat here if I may......

Is using the correct terminology relevant anymore? As Mike said earlier, it's of no use in a fight - unless you plan on deafening your opponent of course. Maybe all these mix n' match karate schools shouldn't use japanese phrases........

Isn't that a little like saying the techniques aren't relevant any more? A lot of karate schools don't teach you street useful defences, and training against stuff like sword and staff is not exactly useful in real life either.
Switching languages does help me focus better (yes, I do realise that probably doesn't apply to anyone else) and my sensei says I behave better when I am "being Japanese".