Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Principle Driven Kata
Karatedo forum > The Dojo > Karate Talk
mike flanagan
I've put a new article on my website about the principles within kata, principles within karate and a method for analysing kata. I hope some of you enjoy it, please feel free to throw any feedback back at me.

Principle Driven Kata

Mike
Sionnagh
I think you have some good points in there. It bears reading again.

From memory I think reaction time to visual stimulus (sight) is about 0.25 second, auditory (hearing) is about 0.2 second, and tactile (touch) is about 0.15 second, so the average person responds almost twice as fast to something felt as they do to something seen. This is part of the reason our training maintains contact with the other person after engagement. Another part is that it makes it easier to find targets - the arm bone's connected to the shoulder bone etc as the song goes.

smile.gif
Mick
GojuSeishinseii
Mike,
I can see you have put a lot of time and effort into this article, well done and thanks. if I may offer some points for consideration:

"kata is simply an opportunity to practice a sequence “combining the attacking and blocking techniques of Karate” (Suzuki 1967). To me this makes little sense, we can just practice our basics, we can even put the basics together in endless combinations. Its not at all clear what kata practice can add to this."

- for lack of a better analogy and to quote shrek smile.gif "kata has many layers like and onion." if we look at perhaps the topmost layer we see basics put together in a realistic combination, how this differs from basic practise depends on how you practise your basics. eg, if you march up and down 10x doing the same technique or combination in a straight line, then kata would enhance this in many ways, such as pivoting, kamae repositioning, directional awareness, improvisation, etc. if you practise this in your basics already then you are practising this layer of a kata (wether it is a traditional kata or a set of basics you put together). This layer gives beginners a good grounding in basics and is often not as tedious as marching up and down the hall.

"My view is simply that the purpose of kata is to enable us to practice not techniques, but principles."
- this is another layer and a good one. You have expained 2 such principles well.

"
* it explains every single kata movement, and
* all of the explanations for all of the movements are consistent with each other.
"
- IMHO a kata principle should not always be used in "every single kata movement", otherwise you might as well be practising basics marching up and down, and we also do not need to have so many kata. Each kata has one or more principles, some kata have overlaping principles some do not. of course there are common principles, but perhaps you have overlooked the individual principles? For example: Animal principles within a kata, many kata have animal themes, seipai = dragon, seiunchin = hawk, etc.. to group these together would be like telling a 45kg 50yr old female that she uses the same principles as a 100kg 25yr old male. If that were the case then there is no hope for a physically inferior opponent.

"characteristic of Taekwondo techniques to deliberately move up and down as you step forward in stance (what they call ‘sine wave’). Their rationale is to add bodyweight into the strike at the end of the movement."

- if I can add another viewpoint to why karate does not move up and down. it is also to hide your movement from you opponent. Moving up and down adds to telegraphing your attack. It also reduces your stability.

"The opening movement from Pinan Shodan (aka Heian Nidan). This involves raising both hands above the shoulders."
- I would like to also add using both hands in an upward direction enhances the power, as apposed to using one one.

in regards to Bunkai / oyo, there are endless combinations, and it seems every person has a different view on what the technique should be. There are 3 common problems:
1. The first problem is that many people discount the obvious (doesnt sell books, seminar tickets or membership), a downward block can be just a downward block. If you need to block a front kick, use a downward block.
2. Of course there is another 'layer' where you can use a variation, like you suggest a downward block can be a choke. however, the second problem is that many people suggest this type of variation without looking at the preceding or impending techniques. If you are choking an opponent on the ground, how did he get to the ground? was your previous technique a sweep or take down? If you deliver a fatal technique why are you still defending against the same attacker in the impending techniques.
3. The third problem is if you have many variations for a particular technique, then you should practise your kata this way. ie. do the kata so that with minimal to no variation you can apply the technique in combat. for example, if the technique requires you to bend down to choke your opponent, then you should bend down in the kata. This means you need to perform your kata in multiple ways. For simplicity you could name them diferently 'kata 1' and 'kata 2' or 'kata sho' and 'kata dai' or 'kata gedan' and 'kata jodan'

"Muchimi, Tai sabaki, Ki, and kuzushi" - Do you apply these to principles in you kata or only two person drills? these can not be used in "every single kata movement" but must be applied to those relevant.


Mike, it's a good article so i hope my reply does not come across unpleasantly.

Thanks.
mike flanagan
QUOTE (GojuSeishinseii @ Feb 18 2008, 12:31 PM) *
"kata has many layers like and onion."


An excellent analogy!

QUOTE
- IMHO a kata principle should not always be used in "every single kata movement", otherwise you might as well be practising basics marching up and down, and we also do not need to have so many kata. Each kata has one or more principles, some kata have overlaping principles some do not. of course there are common principles, but perhaps you have overlooked the individual principles? For example: Animal principles within a kata, many kata have animal themes, seipai = dragon, seiunchin = hawk, etc.. to group these together would be like telling a 45kg 50yr old female that she uses the same principles as a 100kg 25yr old male. If that were the case then there is no hope for a physically inferior opponent.


I may not have expressed myself clearly enough. I don't think the same principles are found in each kata movement, although a lot (such as rotating the forearm, or using particular stances) do occur in the majority of kata movements. But in addition of course, specific techniques express specific principles. Otherwise, as you say, you wouldn't need so many kata. To be honest, I actually think we don't need so many kata, the reason many of the Shorin based systems have ended up with so many is historical rather than practical. I just can't really bring myself to give any of them up.

I take your point about different strategies for different folks and I quite agree. And it may well be the case that different Goju kata do have different emphasis for different body types (I've certainly read this before). But I don't think the same can be said to the same degree for the Shorin kata.

QUOTE
- if I can add another viewpoint to why karate does not move up and down. it is also to hide your movement from you opponent. Moving up and down adds to telegraphing your attack. It also reduces your stability.


I certainly can't argue with those points.

"The opening movement from Pinan Shodan (aka Heian Nidan). This involves raising both hands above the shoulders."
- I would like to also add using both hands in an upward direction enhances the power, as apposed to using one one.

QUOTE
in regards to Bunkai / oyo, there are endless combinations, and it seems every person has a different view on what the technique should be. There are 3 common problems:
1. The first problem is that many people discount the obvious (doesnt sell books, seminar tickets or membership), a downward block can be just a downward block. If you need to block a front kick, use a downward block.


Indeed, that's one reason I recommend thinking of the movements as principles. Application can be simple or it can be sublime, but either way its got to work.

QUOTE
2. Of course there is another 'layer' where you can use a variation, like you suggest a downward block can be a choke. however, the second problem is that many people suggest this type of variation without looking at the preceding or impending techniques. If you are choking an opponent on the ground, how did he get to the ground? was your previous technique a sweep or take down? If you deliver a fatal technique why are you still defending against the same attacker in the impending techniques.


This may again represent a difference between the Goju & Shorin kata. In the Shorin kata, attempts to link consecutive techniques usually don't work very well in my experience. My gut feel is that the (Shorin) kata's originators only intended this for a few sequences, and so the idea doesn't pertain to most of the kata. My idea is more (IMO) just to list principles A through to Z (ie. by practising kata and bunkai), so they become a part of you so that they can be called on as required.

QUOTE
3. The third problem is if you have many variations for a particular technique, then you should practise your kata this way. ie. do the kata so that with minimal to no variation you can apply the technique in combat. for example, if the technique requires you to bend down to choke your opponent, then you should bend down in the kata. This means you need to perform your kata in multiple ways. For simplicity you could name them diferently 'kata 1' and 'kata 2' or 'kata sho' and 'kata dai' or 'kata gedan' and 'kata jodan'


Agreed, I have no problem with people varying a kata to some degree to emphasise applications that they prefer. Kata should not IMO be written in stone. Of course, the danger there is that you make a movement so specific that you miss all the other potential it has (because you're practising a single technique rather than a principle).

QUOTE
"Muchimi, Tai sabaki, Ki, and kuzushi" - Do you apply these to principles in you kata or only two person drills? these can not be used in "every single kata movement" but must be applied to those relevant.


I don't think the kata can teach you all these things just by repeating the movements. I think you have to practice examples with a partner so that the principles become ingrained in you. In terms of applications that I prefer, most do call upon all 5 of my core principles most of the time. There are of course exceptions (like you can't stick to someone if you're throwing them away, or there are times when you simply can't blindside them) but I do find that the more core principles I can put into a technique the more easily I can make it work.

QUOTE
Mike, it's a good article so i hope my reply does not come across unpleasantly.


Not at all, thanks for the feedback.

Mike
GojuSeishinseii
QUOTE
I may not have expressed myself clearly enough. I don't think the same principles are found in each kata movement, although a lot (such as rotating the forearm, or using particular stances) do occur in the majority of kata movements. But in addition of course, specific techniques express specific principles.


I agree that there are general principles common to most the kata.

QUOTE
To be honest, I actually think we don't need so many kata, the reason many of the Shorin based systems have ended up with so many is historical rather than practical. I just can't really bring myself to give any of them up.


You shouldn't have to give them up, many kata suit many different people and many different types of attackers, if you want to teach your students the best kata for them, you will need to know this kata!

QUOTE
I take your point about different strategies for different folks and I quite agree. And it may well be the case that different Goju kata do have different emphasis for different body types (I've certainly read this before). But I don't think the same can be said to the same degree for the Shorin kata.


This is not just the techniques in the kata, but how you work the bunkai. This is similar to what you wrote in your article. A block is not just a block, eg. in a combat situation if you are the physically superior, then perhaps a shotei uke is ok, but if you are the inferior then a kake uke must be done. There are many techniques in goju kata that, because of the population of the Jundokan, IOGKF, etc. that have been interpreted as 'strong man' techniques. These techniques rely heavily on brute force than skill. But if interpreted differently then they are suitable for all body types. I think the same can be said for Shorin Kata, if we look at two of the most recognised divisions Shotokan and Shito ryu. I am by no means trying to offend or discount okinawan Shorin Ryu, it is just easier to show the difference between these two. Generally, Shotokan is long and linear, the taller you are the more benefit. Shito Ryu is short and sharp, speed is the key. You can see that out of shorin ryu came to different 'body type' interpretations.


QUOTE
Indeed, that's one reason I recommend thinking of the movements as principles. Application can be simple or it can be sublime, but either way its got to work.


quite right.

QUOTE
This may again represent a difference between the Goju & Shorin kata. In the Shorin kata, attempts to link consecutive techniques usually don't work very well in my experience. My gut feel is that the (Shorin) kata's originators only intended this for a few sequences, and so the idea doesn't pertain to most of the kata. My idea is more (IMO) just to list principles A through to Z (ie. by practising kata and bunkai), so they become a part of you so that they can be called on as required.


From the kata i have studied, which include Naha te based (Goju, Uechi, Ryuei Ryu, Aragaki) and Shuri te / Tomari Te (Shorin, motobu, te) I have not seen any kata which does not follow a similar pattern. Disregard of course Tanren kata. It usually goes something like: Kamae / Prepare, Block / receive, control, counter and destroy, move on. If there is a sweep involved in the combination it would look something like: Kamae = Invitational Chudan, receive = kake uke, control = kuzushi and ashi barrai (off balance and Sweep), counter = Ippon ken (vital point 1 finger strike), destroy= Shime waza (choke). You do not usually see a step missing, unless it is intentionally hidden rolleyes.gif So to get to a choke you would need to 1. invite, 2. receive, 3. Control, 4. Counter. then Choke. if you try to go straight for the choke it would look something more like a shoot fighter than karate.

QUOTE
I don't think the kata can teach you all these things just by repeating the movements. I think you have to practice examples with a partner so that the principles become ingrained in you. In terms of applications that I prefer, most do call upon all 5 of my core principles most of the time. There are of course exceptions (like you can't stick to someone if you're throwing them away, or there are times when you simply can't blindside them) but I do find that the more core principles I can put into a technique the more easily I can make it work.


Yes of course, partner work is essential! This includes kumite.. but not just brawling, working your kata into your kumite.

Thank you for your reply mike.
mike flanagan
QUOTE (GojuSeishinseii @ Feb 19 2008, 10:28 AM) *
You shouldn't have to give them up, many kata suit many different people and many different types of attackers, if you want to teach your students the best kata for them, you will need to know this kata!


That's one reason I keep them, although I do still feel there is a good degree of redundancy in the Shorin kata. I don't think the idea of different kata for different body types fully explains the number of Shorin kata - sure its part of the picture but I think part of the reason is merely by chance, different teachers creating similar tools to achieve the same end.

QUOTE
I take your point about different strategies for different folks and I quite agree. And it may well be the case that different Goju kata do have different emphasis for different body types (I've certainly read this before). But I don't think the same can be said to the same degree for the Shorin kata.


QUOTE
This is not just the techniques in the kata, but how you work the bunkai. This is similar to what you wrote in your article. A block is not just a block, eg. in a combat situation if you are the physically superior, then perhaps a shotei uke is ok, but if you are the inferior then a kake uke must be done. There are many techniques in goju kata that, because of the population of the Jundokan, IOGKF, etc. that have been interpreted as 'strong man' techniques. These techniques rely heavily on brute force than skill. But if interpreted differently then they are suitable for all body types.


Understood and agreed.

[quote]From the kata i have studied, which include Naha te based (Goju, Uechi, Ryuei Ryu, Aragaki) and Shuri te / Tomari Te (Shorin, motobu, te) I have not seen any kata which does not follow a similar pattern. Disregard of course Tanren kata. It usually goes something like: Kamae / Prepare, Block / receive, control, counter and destroy, move on. [.quote]

Are you talking about whole sequences of the kata, or what are normally regarded as individual moves? Would you extend the idea to the Pinan kata (assuming your familiar with them)?

Mike
GojuSeishinseii
QUOTE
Are you talking about whole sequences of the kata, or what are normally regarded as individual moves? Would you extend the idea to the Pinan kata (assuming your familiar with them)?


sorry we maybe be confusing terminology. I am refering to a sequence of the kata, not the indivdiual moves. For example: you move to the left and deal with one situation (may be one or multiple attacker).

Not all kata follow this pattern, the 'new' kata tend not to because they were created for school children. Kata such as Taikyoku do not, and in their basic form neither do Gekisai or Pinan. However Gekisai and pinan do contain 'hidden' sequences that follow this pattern. I think this is because they were created by 'old school' masters, that were trying to dilute the kata without totally removing the purpose. For example, children and beginners alike can learn the 'basic' kata and later, when their character has been tested and the teacher knows they will not use these techniques for unsavory purposes, then they can be taught the 'hidden' sequence. Once you know the formula to see the 'hidden' sequence it is not so hard to determine the bunkai.

If you like I can attempt to make this analysis of the first sequence of pinan shodan. I 'know' this kata to the extent of recognising it, but I have not studied it nor do I practise it so my interpretation is only brief and not meant to be taken as gospel.

1. [Kamae] Jodan+Chudan uke (upper + middle block)- this can be done at the basic level as a block, when done like this it should be performed fast. At a more advanced level it should be performed as a kamae, inviting and preparing for your attacker to strike chudan level.

2. [Block] Uchi uke (inside block) - receive the attackers chudan strike. At an advanced level it is done with muchimi timing.

3. [Control] Use muchimi to stick to your opponents arm, then grasp the attackers wrist.

3. [Counter] Soto / Tetsui Uchi (Hammer fist strike) to the side of the neck. At an advanced level you pull them into you while performing the strike.

4. [Destroy] By this stage your opponent should be unconsious or atleast slightly stunned. Use the attackers forward falling momentum, from the previous left hands tetsui position on your oppenents neck, open your hand in a kake action to the back of their head and hooking back and downwards, while you right hand still grasping the opponents other hand twists and raises to perform an combined wrist and shoulder lock. This should guide the opponent to hit the ground on the top of his skull, which if he was not fully unconsious prior he now would be. If however, he still is able to offer resistance (maybe wearing a helmet?), your wrist and shoulder lock would be a sufficent controlling method, until you can deliver another technique to finish the attacker off.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2012 Invision Power Services, Inc.