Hi all, long time, I know, but what the Hell.

Recently I've been reading about the use of the Makiwara board. I'm interested to know who uses one? If you ever made one, and how?
If you use one, how often do you use it, and for how long each session?

If you don't use one, why not? To painful, never thought of it, long term damage?

So come on, I've a genuine interest. I've never used one, but am considering it.


Merry Christmas, all. And a Smashing New Year

Si

Hi Si

Although I'm currently having a holiday from it, I do use a makiwara.

I don't believe in using it everyday, about 3 maybe 4 times a week feels about right, each session lasting only 20 minutes or so. You've got to start really really easy and work your way into it very gradually.

Please don't buy one of those so-called 'wall mounted' makiwara. They're designed only to
a) break your knuckles
b) teach you to pull your blows

Its really important to get one that has the right degree of flexibility. Too much resistance and you just end up damaging yourself. So if you're really serious about it I'd recommend looking at

www.makiwarapost.co.uk

They're expensive but well worth it in my opinion. That said, I'd recommend several years worth of good solid bagwork before moving on to the makiwara.

Mike

I agree with Mike on the wall-mounted makiwara. You might as well put on boxing gloves and punch a brick wall as use a wall-mounted makiwara.

It's my opinion that makiwara came about because they were easy to make, and because 100 or so years ago you couldn't go down to the local sports store and buy a punching bag. I'm yet to be convinced of an advantage to a makiwara over a decent bag. Provided you already have a bag and don't have to go out and buy one. That is, if you already have a bag I don't see an advantage to getting a makiwara as well though there are probably plenty who would disagree.


Mick

I've heard numerous horror stories of new students buying these things, enthusiastically pounding away on them, then suffering from Arthiritis, seperated knuckles, and other joint problems.

Anyone put my mind at ease?

Also - what sort of hand protection should be worn when using these?

I wouldn't wear any protection, but then I wouldn't hit a wall mounted makiwara full stop. The only good place for it is the bin.

On a bag or proper makiwara I don't recommend gloves (or any other protection), but I do recommend starting to work on it really quite gently and only slowly increasing the force applied.

If you scuff your knuckles on a bag you're applying force across the bag's surface. This is to be avoided. Try to punch (whatever type of punch) so that at impact your forearm/fist forms a straight line pointing directly into the vertical centreline of the bag. This will prevent the bag spinning, minimise scuffing to the knuckles and ensure maximum transmission of force into the bag.

If you feel pain in the wrist its probably because you're hitting too hard, too early in your training and failing to ensure proper wrist alignment relative to the bag's centreline. So slow down, practice single strikes and take time to set the alignment up properly.

Most people want to put on gloves and go hell for leather, but at best this is teaching you how to box not how to hit with bare knuckles. Try hitting like that without gloves and you'll soon see how different the two sets of skills are. To hit a heavy bag without gloves in an free-form and rapid manner actually takes a lot of practice to get right without causing yourself injury. It also helps to use all the body's weapons, not just fists. Not even thinking about legs I'd recommend striking the bag with the elbow, forearm (ulna), open-hand, backfist, shoulder, hip and even the occasional (but gentle) headbutt. That way you've got lots of other tools to use when you haven't got good alignment for a punch.

Re: Mick's point about makiwara v punchbag. I do actually think they are a bit different. On the makiwara, during the impact phase, the reaction force increases (exponentially?) whereas it decreases slightly on a punchbag (once you've overcome the initial inertia). But I do think they're similar enough that only the real compulsive-obsessive types need to worry about using both. For most people a good punchbag should be sufficient, at least for the first several years of hitting it. Bagwork is good preparation for using the makiwara (I certainly wouldn't have liked to do it the other way round) and is also more versatile.

Happy new year all!

Mike

Thank you all for your responce's. All stuff to think about. But come on guys, this topic is for everyone on the forum. So feel free to put in your penneth worth.

All the best for the new year, guy's.

My karate instructor here in perth when I was with GKR insisted we should all use a makiwara. Especially a home made one constructed of an old car tyre and a plank of wood with some padding.

He continually asked me why I wasn't using one. Said it wouldn't hurt after a few uses and would help to build up callouses on my knuckles to harden them so I wouldnt hurt my knuckles when I had to hit someone.

I'd never heard a bigger load of bull in my life. This isn't to say I disagree with the use of makiwara, just for his reasoning is all.

Callouses on my knuckles? For a start how unattractive??? As a girl I do like to wear jewellery at times and a ring sitting next to a big lump of ugly skin is not what any girl wants. But in the practical sense I thought that having callouses on your knuckles and then 'hitting' something would cause the callous and dry skin to split causing more damage than if you had soft skin.

Makiwaras may be good for some people for some reasons. But to cause 'tough knuckles' seemed a bit silly when he explained it to me.

But that's just my opinion. A lot of guys may welcome the big ugly lumps of skin.

Hmm I remember that.
I recall thinking all I'm getting out of this is damaged hands.

The perils of being a student of a poorly trained teacher. I worry about others getting this sort of training and potentially getting seriously injured.

This may sound a little out of left field and no offence intended.... but karate is for defence and spiritual reasons, not for looks. If you want to improve your physique you should probably try pilates or yoga. During karate training you may suffer from bruises, broken bones or noses, this is not attractive either.

Having said that, makiwara practise is NOT to develop hardening of the knuckles or the formation of callouses, this is mearly a side effect. Many traditional practioners use a lotion before and after to stop these callouses, karate is discreet. That is also why you shouldn't wear your uniform and belt outside the dojo. However many practioners also wear these callouses for a sense of pride, "Look at how hard I train" type thing. These people often retire early as well, due to arthritis or the likes. Callouses are not needed for defence, when using your knuckles you should strike somewhere soft. (eg. Solaplexis, jaw, temple, groin) if you choose (or the opportunity is there) to strike somewhere hard (eg. skull, elbow, knee) use a soft weapon (eg. palm).

The purpose of makiwara training is to develop striking power through the correct use of the hips. Start off slow with a lot of padding, and pay close attention to form. A punching bag is good for this level. then slowly reduce the padding and increase the power, always paying attention to form.

I hope this helps.

Yeah yeah defence and spiritual reasons.

I'm not against going all out for these things and I've copped my fair share of bruises, scrtaches, and black outs (no broken bones) all which are not attractive, but callouses don't go away. They don't heal. not completely anyway. And when there are so many defence forms out there that teach you to defend yourself without the need to cause unsightly lumps... why would you go for calloused knuckles?

Just a point of interest. You might want to watch the karate episode of Human Weapon. A 70 odd year old man hardens his hands by repeatedly bashing a rock in his dojo. His hands did not look unsightly.
I think this topic has taken us from one exteme to the other. Perhaps something to hit on a regular basis is good for all round training. But daily bashing till the hands are sore is just ridiculous?

Indeed. Makiwara training, or other similar impact, must develop incrementally, ie. you need to have a slow, considered and patient approach, otherwise you will most certainly come a cropper.

I don't think that unsightly callouses need be a result (although I dare say it would happen if you used the traditional striking surface of wound rope). There'd be some callousing but not necessarily a huge amount. Callouses can go just as easily as callouses come. It all depends on what you're doing with your hands at that point in your life. They're not necessarily unhealthy and they can heal just as well as other skin tissue, they are simply an adaptation to the environment after all. Equally, I don't think calloused knuckles are necessary for karate. They are IMO the least important aspect of makiwara training.

'Everyone' in karate is obsessed with punching but in reality punches are just one of many karate striking techniques. I think its far more important to practice with knuckles and all the other striking surfaces on a bag than it is to focus on hitting the makiwara (or the bag for that matter) with your knuckles. Lets have some emphasis on elbow and forearm strikes for a change!

Mike

Ah you would be refering to Morio Higaonna of Goju Ryu... It may not apear like it in the film but his hands are very unsightly. He has huge callouses on his knuckles.



I agree with you on this.

Susan, for the record.. I don't think callouses are necessary in defence training. I use a chinese herbal lotion to stop these from forming myself, however I do think that the use of the makiwara is useful. I was just giving 2 sides to the coin.