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Kimu
Ok, so its been ages since I posted or replied or visited or anything, but I have five minutes and thought it was about time I checked back in.

I have a question(s) and would be interested in the collective opinion.

To compete or not? Does taking part in sports karate make us better karate-ka? That is, if you are a champion point sparrer, does that make you necessarily better than a karate-ka who only 'dojo' spars? Similarly, does competing in kata, make you a better kata practitioner?

Not sure if this has been a previous topic (it probably has), but am interested in your thoughts and experiences and any threads.

Cheers
Tom
Good question......

I know people who refuse to take part in tournaments, saying "they don`t count for anything" and "alot of it is just showing off" and these are the same people who would do fairly well at these events.
I suppose being a champion points scorer would make your kumite better, but only at the points-scoring element of it, i.e. non/semi contact.

On the other hand....... Competing allows you to spar against different opponents, thereby preventing your techniques from going stale, and giving you a chance to fight against fresh opponents - after all, people have their own combo`s and suchlike and will use them if they work..

As for kata, Competing does count as practice, so that can`t be a bad thing AND you get to watch other people and see how they do it.
Nooms
Better than what?
It would depend to some degree on why you train, I think. Do you train to be better than someone else? Do you train to win points in the dojo? Do you train to learn new skills? Get fit? Learn self defence?
I think it helps some people feel like they are better for having competed, and that in turn makes them feel good about themselves, so it's a good thing.
Matt
I recall a conversation with Boz when he told me his opinion that sparring is as close to actual combat one can get without putting each other at risk. Some such as Kyokushin take the contact a lot further - but there are still rules. Without sparring theres no way to get any realistic combat practice.

Kata on the other hand was never meant to be a competitive sport. To make it such has prettied it up at the expense of its real purpose.

Feel free to add something Boz dry.gif wink.gif
Willsc
QUOTE (Matt @ Sep 24 2007, 07:38 AM) *
I recall a conversation with Boz when he told me his opinion that sparring is as close to actual combat one can get without putting each other at risk. Some such as Kyokushin take the contact a lot further - but there are still rules. Without sparring theres no way to get any realistic combat practice.


I do agree somewhat with the above statement, but there is a lot of difference between a real combat and tournament sparring. Tournament sparing doesn’t have any of the elements that a real situation has. It shouldn’t have. In a tournament we don’t deal with the anger and temper that an aggressor would have. The techniques are all known and we don’t have to deal with “dirty “(street fighting) techniques. I do get nervous before sparring but its not even close the feeling I would experience in a real situation. In dojo / tournament sparring we don’t get hurt (hopefully) like we could get hurt in real. In real there may be the additional problem of restrictive clothing.

On the other side, any practice is better then no practice.
mike flanagan
QUOTE (Matt @ Sep 24 2007, 08:38 AM) *
I recall a conversation with Boz when he told me his opinion that sparring is as close to actual combat one can get without putting each other at risk. Some such as Kyokushin take the contact a lot further - but there are still rules. Without sparring theres no way to get any realistic combat practice.


I think it depends on the type of sparring. Sure, full contact is certainly good experience, but who wants to, or can, engage in that type of training on a regular basis (or beyond a certain age).

The normal points sparring in karate is, IMO, about as far removed from actual combat as is jogging. You might sweat and get out of breath but you learn bugger all about defending yourself - again just my opinion FWIW. I won't even let my students engage in this sort of sparring for several years when they first start training. It teaches too many bad habits and there are far more directly useful drills they can be doing instead.

Mike
Susan
Far removed from actual combat?

Feels weird argueing with someone with so much knowledge in this field but I did here from someone that point sparring (done properly) gave a fairly good insight into combat fighting as the first 'point' gave a rather good indication of the first and hopefully finishing strike in a real fight.

I was told (I don't remember who by) that the first strike done properly would usually end the fight before it began.
mike flanagan
QUOTE (Susan @ Sep 27 2007, 09:23 AM) *
Far removed from actual combat?

Feels weird argueing with someone with so much knowledge in this field but


Good Lord, heaven forbid that I should ever become so pompous that you couldn't feel free to disagree or argue with me. Please don't feel you can't question something I say just because I've been round the block a few times.

QUOTE
I did here from someone that point sparring (done properly) gave a fairly good insight into combat fighting as the first 'point' gave a rather good indication of the first and hopefully finishing strike in a real fight.

I was told (I don't remember who by) that the first strike done properly would usually end the fight before it began.


I can certainly agree that the first solidly landed blow can go a good way to ending a fight.

But I have a real anaethma to sparring (typical karate style). IME sparring produces a range of conditioned reflexes that are inappropriate for self-defence (likewise self-defence training doesn’t really prepare you for sparring).

Look at some of the reflexes that sparring ingrains:
- start from a distance, move in, score, move out again
- don’t grab or otherwise hold your opponent (other than briefly)
- kick above the waist
- don’t kick below the waist
- don’t target the groin, legs, joints or neck
etc. etc.

At the same time your opponent is behaving in a similar way. So there are all sorts of things that might happen in real violence that just don’t crop up at all in sparring. Possibly the most fundamental (IMO) is with regard to range. A real assault can start at just about any distance. But whatever the starting distance the gap almost inevitably closes very rapidly, to arm’s length or less. Once closed that gap is unlikely to increase again until one person or the other is in serious trouble. Sparring (other than say in MMA) just doesn’t prepare students for this.

I could go on but hopefully this gives a flavour of the differences. I personally consider that normal karate sparring does have some value, but its quite limited and so shouldn’t have much time at all devoted to it.

Mike
Susan
QUOTE (mike flanagan @ Sep 27 2007, 09:34 PM) *
Look at some of the reflexes that sparring ingrains:
- start from a distance, move in, score, move out again
- don’t grab or otherwise hold your opponent (other than briefly)
- kick above the waist
- don’t kick below the waist
- don’t target the groin, legs, joints or neck
etc. etc.

Mike



Very true of karate sparring I guess...

When first starting out in kung fu sparring it was very very difficult to remember to defend the legs. and even target the legs. I'd be going "quite well" then all of a sudden....... DEAD LEG!!!!

Also being a contact sport style of sparring it changed everything. Getting kicked for 'real' hurts. And being kicked in the arm (a non scoring area) stops you in your tracks pretty quickly the first time...
Boz
Hi Matt,

QUOTE (Matt @ Sep 24 2007, 07:38 AM) *
I recall a conversation with Boz when he told me his opinion that sparring is as close to actual combat one can get without putting each other at risk. Some such as Kyokushin take the contact a lot further - but there are still rules. Without sparring theres no way to get any realistic combat practice.

# I would have said something like that in (as we know it) traditional karate, sparring is as close as you are going to get to
a physical confrontation and can be used as a useful training tool. I'm not talking direct physical assault but mutually agreed combat. Its all in how you train for it. If you train to get in first with a sensible practical powerful strike, train in avoidance and maintaining distance, train to be precise in targetting and understand timing then its very useful. If you train to score points and confuse what are waza (effective technique) and what are not then sparring is useless.

# A thug usually likes to sucker punch or as we say, king hit, their victim because it wins most fights. They understand precise targetting and timing and distance. Use strategic deception, hit hard and don't get hit is the goal when a confrontation cannot be avoided and you can't walk away safely. Same in kumite but you control the distance of your strike. Of course there is more to it and a lot more to domestic violence which requires a knowledge of how to grapple but for those that think sparring is useless, well its up to how you practise it yourself. Full contact is a dangerous sport and the injuries suffered can be avoided. Its not which art or school you train in but who trains you and what training you receive.

Kata on the other hand was never meant to be a competitive sport. To make it such has prettied it up at the expense of its real purpose.

# Kata is a training tool that has become a Holy Grail of sorts. These days I believe that many are training in kata and not karate. The basics and the training program revolving around kata performance with a bit of hallucinated bunkai invariably kata responses to kata type attacks. Common sense, yeah I know I keep saying it, dictates that GIGO is a pretty good principle. Garbage in garbage out! I think sensible parner training taken up to the level of the old gladiators who practised with wooden swords is as realistic as one needs. But shite.. I might be wrong!

Boz
Feel free to add something Boz dry.gif wink.gif
Matt
Thanks for elaborating and refreshing my memory Boz.
Nice to hear from you again. smile.gif
mike flanagan
QUOTE (Susan @ Sep 28 2007, 09:22 AM) *
When first starting out in kung fu sparring it was very very difficult to remember to defend the legs. and even target the legs. I'd be going "quite well" then all of a sudden....... DEAD LEG!!!!

Also being a contact sport style of sparring it changed everything. Getting kicked for 'real' hurts. And being kicked in the arm (a non scoring area) stops you in your tracks pretty quickly the first time...


Some contact certainly changes the nature of the game!

Look at range too. Have a look at video clips on the web of real fights. Careful though, some of the sites I've visited in this respect try to download all sorts of crap onto your machine.

In the majority of altercations the typical martial (striking) sparring distance is something that only occurs momentarily. Assailants pass through it very quickly and close to some sort of grappling (strike with one hand, hit with the other) range. When combatants come apart they typically close together again very quickly. So you only have the briefest of opportunities to exploit techniques that work at the range that most karateka fight at. You might pull it off, but if you don’t you’ll find yourself working at an unfamiliar range.

Its not at all unusual for assaults to start at grappling range, having circumvented your usual sparring range at the ‘argument’ stage. Again, watching real fights, try to determine at what point you would have decided it was time for action. Would sparring tactics been of value? If not, is there another approach that would have stood you in good stead? Perhaps a training method of resolving arguments with body language and verbal skills might be more useful than actual sparring?

OK some fights do start at sparring range, but a significant portion of these are actually mutually agreed duels between testosterone filled young men - and even then that range tends to very short-lived. If you take these duels out of the equation you see how little sparring range has to do with self-defence.

Mike
Boz
Hi Mike,

I see what you are saying.. modern schools that rely on typical sparring skills for all situations could be in for a shock when caught at close-quarters. I guess my point is that one needs to train at both ranges. Medium to long and especially up close and personal. I know when we first started training at close range it was very uncomfortable. Now we do our own version of 'sticky hands' without the sticky bit and we practise covering and seeking opportunities to hurt the punder and flailers. I wouldn't drop the sparring at mid range though because that is our greatest strength and we do more than just score points. We train in the same tactics of the streetwise assailant because they are so successful. Most people will face domestic situations by the untrained rather than assault by experienced street thugs so its not all doom and gloom. Having said that, if we only train in karate-do and the sports aspects and the kata technique vs kata technique bunkai, a real situation may be a big shock.

Cheers,
Bob

QUOTE (mike flanagan @ Oct 2 2007, 08:27 PM) *
Some contact certainly changes the nature of the game!

Look at range too. Have a look at video clips on the web of real fights.

In the majority of altercations the typical martial (striking) sparring distance is something that only occurs momentarily. Assailants pass through it very quickly and close to some sort of grappling (strike with one hand, hit with the other) range. When combatants come apart they typically close together again very quickly. So you only have the briefest of opportunities to exploit techniques that work at the range that most karateka fight at. You might pull it off, but if you don’t you’ll find yourself working at an unfamiliar range.

Its not at all unusual for assaults to start at grappling range, having circumvented your usual sparring range at the ‘argument’ stage. Again, watching real fights, try to determine at what point you would have decided it was time for action. Would sparring tactics been of value? If not, is there another approach that would have stood you in good stead? Perhaps a training method of resolving arguments with body language and verbal skills might be more useful than actual sparring?

OK some fights do start at sparring range, but a significant portion of these are actually mutually agreed duels between testosterone filled young men - and even then that range tends to very short-lived. If you take these duels out of the equation you see how little sparring range has to do with self-defence.

Mike
mike flanagan
Hi Boz

QUOTE (Boz @ Oct 3 2007, 06:39 AM) *
Having said that, if we only train in karate-do and the sports aspects and the kata technique vs kata technique bunkai, a real situation may be a big shock.


Agree, 100%.

QUOTE
I wouldn't drop the sparring at mid range though because that is our greatest strength and we do more than just score points.


Personally I prefer to shorten the range asap, to within arm's reach. I think of what I do as being a 'clinch fighter', but a clinch doesn't have to be a hug, just any situation where there is some sustained physical contact, eg. a wrist grab or just pressing your arm (without grabbing) against the other person's.

I do think its still important though to work against attacks that start at a longer range. So mid and even long range sparring can help with this, I just don't want to condition myself to stay at that range. More a case of negate the attack and close the gap.

Mike
Fast_Eddie
Hey guys. All very interesting indeed.

Well, I have entered into the NZ GKR Champs as a 4th kyu, which is on the 27th Oct. I wondered if anyone has any advice for me.

I don’t believe I am a great fighter, in fact I think I suck! I am doing this to fight not my opponents, but to fight my fears. I think I fear being useless more than anything else. I don’t mind a good bruising, I will try and put aside the intimidation of my opponent, I will try and be relaxed but explode with speed when necessary...is there anything else. Perhaps more psychological advice.

A few months ago I wasn’t in a good place mentally and couldn’t be bothered with karate anymore because I thought I was too useless. Picking myself up, I am ready to get a beating in a tournament. Any advice at all??

rolleyes.gif
Matt
welcome.gif
Treat it as something fun.. dont let it mean so much to you. Really - is it that big a deal??? These tournament junkies who HAVE to win don't help much either. I went in nas purely for fun and ended up doing better than I thought.
Try lose the "ready to get a beating in a tournament" psych also..... if you believe that you've already lost.
Fast_Eddie
There is a fine line between thinking a certain way, and an additude that one possesses. To have an additude that it dosent mean that much to me, could mean to some people that I am not trying. Eitherway, your advice is great, I certainly relate to the having fun part and I think thats exactly what I will do. I have to learn to relax big time too.

Thanks for that!
Willsc
Here is something i found a while ago and it helped me. As Matt said, go in have fun and relax.


Fighting Styles


Introverts prefer defense—they let their opponents have the initiative and are content to react. If their perception and analysis of the situation are accurate, they can very economically and efficiently dispatch their opponents.
Successful defensive fighters are intelligent (they quickly analyze all information on the situation), calm, adjustable, cold, and calculating.

Example of defensive fighting*: Staying just out of range, frustrating the opponent's attacks, until the opponent gets tired, upset, and careless. When the opponent is worn out, open to attack, and unable to counter effectively, the defensive fighter safely attacks.

Extroverts prefer attack—they seize the initiative and force their opponents to react. They are confident and optimistic—they are unfazed by their unsuccessful attacks and keep on attacking. Extroverts can also counterattack effectively but do not feel good about fighting defensively—they do not like to wait and leave initiative to the opponent.
Neurotics also attack but they do so out of desperation, do not analyze situations, and act chaotically. They attack but they are not in control of their actions. Except for the instances when they attack or defend chaotically they avoid contact with opponents by extending distance.

Successful attacking fighters are persevering, decisive, and obstinate; they like to take risks and to experiment.
Example of attack fighting: Launching a continuous series of attacks to force an opening in the opponent's defense.
Successful counterattacking fighters are confident, intelligent (they quickly analyze the situation and accurately anticipate an opponent's actions), dominating (not submitting to the other's initiative), calm, patient, and independent (not concerned with others' opinion, doing what is necessary to win without trying to impress anyone).
Example of counterattack fighting: Intercepting an opponent's attacks by evading, deflecting, or blocking and immediately attacking the openings that present themselves. Some counterfighters deliberately open themselves to an expected attack because they have a counter for it ready. Another way of setting up a counterattack is to attack to elicit an expected defense or a counter from the opponent and then to counter that defense or counter.

Neurotics also attack but they do so out of desperation, do not analyze situations, and act chaotically. They attack but they are not in control of their actions. Except for the instances when they attack or defend chaotically they avoid contact with opponents by extending distance.


Understanding why some individuals prefer defense and others counterattack or attack helps to fit instruction and training to personality. Different remedies are needed for improving the tactics of a neurotic, who attacks desperately, than of an extrovert, who attacks confidently.

Instruction should accentuate the strengths and preferences of fighters and on the basis of these eventually diversify their styles of fighting. Instructors should not impose one style of fighting on fighters with different characteristics. Instructing all fighters in the same tactical drills should be avoided.


Susan
my tip.....

for a start stop saying "I suck"

you may not be as good at it as others in your class but put it more positively than "I suck".
Fast_Eddie
Not the greatest choice of words, but its really hard when you're in an environment that you are constantly told you are doing it wrong, or you cant catch on to combo's as quick as everyone else, or you have more karate bad days than breakfasts!

It is so much easier to be negative, it prepares you for disappointment better, than being positive with an undesirable outcome. The optimistic would slap me on the face for saying something like that. The depressed would nod, and agree. Well, enough profanities.

Anyway, it may have more to do with having too higher standards. I have to keep saying to myself..enjoy, enjoy...relax, relax...and of course...be possitive! :-)
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