i'd like to find out what people think of cross training.

What do you mean by cross training? As in soing more than one style of martial art at the same time, or something?

yep that's what i mean sorry i sould have explained myself better in the begining

If you get everything you want from one style then there isn't really a need to cross-train.

But there are many reasons people have to cross-train, perceiving that something is missing from your existing training is frequently the reason that people cross-train.

For me, I considered there were grappling elements to kata which a) I wasn't being taught; and B) nobody had the knowledge to teach it which led me elsewhere.


Mick

I tried to train in other styles, but I got bored of them really quickly, because they weren't as worthwhile, I thought, as this current style. Aikido seemed a little simple, and is mainly defensive. Kendo uses swords. When am I ever going to get the chance to defend myself with a sword? Probably never.

But I do think it's a good idea to spar against others who do train in different styles. I train on a regular basis with a guy who does Hapkido, and that's mainly grabs and throws, so I know how to stop a grab/throw now before I get ownzed by it.

not to take anything away from gkr but i would like to learn more ground moves and hold breaks than seem to be taught in training with gkr as i see it self defense is an art in many forms with three children from 11 to 6 years old i would like to know that whatever comes up they can (a) run if possible at first (b)restrain and hold second © drop and disable when no other option is open as they see it, regardless of what is put in front of them in later years, might be just a worryed dad here but the world is becoming alot more dangerous place now days and i worry about my kids. and i do mean that i would like to see them do the moves in order from a to c but if you need c lets have it to use,and gkr seem to miss out the ground and hold break moves

Saifa has a lot of escapes from holds.


Mick

yes but learning them in kata form and pratising them for real is alot different and you don't hear of many raped wemen getting raped standing up so some ground work would help aswell' as well as how to reverse a hold i could go on but i think you get the picture, well one last thing if the sensei's know these moves why not teach them.

At the Dojo I attend (B'ham ,UK) our sensai goes through some self defense moves once a month. This usually happens at the end of the class and the self defense moves he teaches are to do with possible situations that might occur on the streets ( i.e. being grabbed from behind or by the throat etc). Not sure if it's in the GKR sylabbus but he must have been taught them from someone and he's never mentioned cross training so............

Yeah, we do quite a bit of self defence moves as well. I think our Senior sensei may have mentioned that he learned these from another style, maybe Gojo Ryu? but I can't remember.

i have been shown self defense moves to at different classes in gkr, willy wonker you might ask your sensei if they are gkr moves i'd be interested to know just as a guide to what sensei's are taught and can teach in class, because only in 3 classes total apart from seminars have my sensei's taught these moves, and i attended senior sensei training for a good time aswell and never once did the self defence moves come up. out of the other 3 times twice it was the same person a retired sensei that showed us, and the other was a sensei that i would train under if work permitted i only trained once with him and his wife but is was a class to remember.i just think that if sensei's are taught these moves in general at sensei training then there should be time each class not once a month or whenever you would like to pay extra to learn them if your regional manager is interested enough in putting the class on, 5 mins each class devoted to some form of ground work or hold breaks, kids and adults need to pratise these things so in real life you can rely on them not just hope. i had a reply that kata shows you but in kata has someone got hold of you? no it is form work in real life form means nothing, survival is the key and only with pratise can you hope to put instinct into pratise. sorry if i upset some people with this reply but it is a matter that i think every person with chidren would be concerned about, there childrens safty and the best way to preserve it

If you look up "Habitual Acts of Violence" the 5 most common attacks on women involve being grabbed - by the arm, around the neck, around the waist, by the throat and by the hair. A common theme here?

It goes on to mention the most common wrist grips. What is the opening sequence(s) in saifa?


Mick

I see your point sionnagh, but (and you know I'm not a fan of the "real life applications of kata" theorem) to go through the bunkai, could you seriously expect a downward wrist strike (the "break hold" part of saifa's first few moves) to be effective when faced with a strong opponent intent on doing you harm?

I think there needs to be more emphasis on self defence techniques - a few simple Brazilian Jujitsu moves applicable to common assaults adopted as part of the syllabus. Isnt GKR pushed as self defence? Arent the people called "self defence consultants?" Why are instructors dissuaded from teaching these things (and they are)?

To market the club this way then not deliver is a tad misrepresentative.
Okay - bit of devils advocate here, but interested in others opinions.

the common theme here is wemen getting grabbed ( and not just wemen boys to) from whatever angle does it really matter, what does matter is there a way they know to get out of it. i don't know how big and strong you are, but for someone not in the position to break the hold with a kata move that is pratised on air which i must say seems to give the impression of greater power than is really there( to test what i am talking about kick air then go kick a bag you will soon find out the difference or for that matter punch or strike it) the same applies to hold breaks, ground work ect you need to pratise these with some sort of resistance. it seems to me you are convinced that kata can teach you all you need to know for you maybe it does and if so congrats because even the best senseis i'v trained under say, you need to put what you learn into pratise, line work and kata can show you how it is done but you need to learn how to do it in a situation that you get it right first time, (remember when you started sparring i bet you realised your kicks,blocks ect when not as strong/fast or accurate as you first thought but with pratise with sparring they improved greatly) this is what i mean when i say we need to pratise with resistance.oh one last thing they might be grabbed in the way you say but mostly they end up on the ground not a nice place to be at anytime, but it is alot worse if when you are there you no zip about getting up and away,i'm all for getting away before you hit the ground so lets get taught that on a regular basis in class.

If you have the chance, look at the way the goju people do saifa - it's slightly different to the gkr way, but makes quite a difference in terms of looking at the application.
The common application I have seen in gkr for breaking the hold is not effective against a larger stronger opponent, but the same basic moves are a lot more effective if you do it slightly differently - the "downward wrist strike" deano mentions just can't be done if you're not in a position to do it. IMO you need to be shown an alternate application which uses basic body mechanics and leverage, not the strength-against-strength which is very limited.


Mick

i'm not sure i'll get the chance to see their way but i'll ask around thanks for the hint i'll be interested to see how they do it :thumbwink:

I dont know if its just here, and in our region, but we are doing about 20mins of self defence in each class, and have been doing so for a few months now.Maybe Kancho, Shihan realised the gap in our style and have acted accordingly??
Where the self defence comes from i dont know?The kids also do Tang soo do and have to know self defence as part of their grading.Maybe that side will be introduced to GKR in the future,after all GKR is not averse to change as we all know.If it benefits us all bring it on i say.
Nigel

thatmanwaters i have a quick question how long are your classes 1 hour or an hour and a half? and i fully agree if it helps lets learn it cheers :thumbwink:

Fang
The early class is an hour,the later class is an hour and a half,However the kids train with two different senseis,and they both always run over by 30 to 60 mins for those who want to stay(later class only).
Regards
Nigel

that's nice of them and thanks for the reply

It'd be nice if some of the GKR senseis would let classes go over by an hour or so too. I wouldn't mind that. I'd train in the dojo all night if I was able to.

lol my son would just pitch a tent in the dojo and get his food and drinks dropped off, mmmmmmm might be the idea must speak to sensei about this matter.

Yeah, that'd be excellent. Sort of like training in isolation on some remote mountain top, in a monastery of sorts. Doing something like that, and letting it go for an entire weekend is what we should be doing all the time.

Any senseis here? Can you make something like this happen in all states all the time? Maybe not on mountain tops, but something like it?

damn that would be fun :thumbwink: , but i think the sensei's are not aloud to do this sort of thing it is upto the regional managers, and well ho hum, whistle in the wind, the blue elephant has appeared,ok enough you get the picture. i know a few sensei's that would love to take a weekend class away if they could get the ok, but that's out of the question i think

Damnit. Well, I guess I'll be sucking up to the regional sensei then.

you are correct...

anything non "official GKR syllabus" must be cleared with the regional instructor first (and failing that the zone instructor)

you may be able to mention it to your sensei who can then mention it to your RM. it can't hurt...

sounds like a nice idea though

ok i have a question about self defence ie wrist grabs ect, i guess this is for sensei's only but i feel it is relevent, if you had a student in your class that knew some of this stuff would you let him/her show it to the rest of your class, or atleast to the higher belt students.

hmmm - how to answer this without dobbing myself in

um.....if the student was competent (say - had extensive experience) and there was nothing dangerous about it (say - following through with a kick to the side of the knee and sleeper hold in a class of excited 5 year olds), then yeah! No different from getting a student to come up with a combination to teach the class really.

Oh, I'd clear it with the RM first of course

lol matt the kids driving you crazy dude?, and cool if you can answer this without putting yourself in, you do self defense in your classes?

Yes we do do self defence when we can. Its in the instructor video as approved so I have no prob with it. I should clarify previous post that anything "out of the ordinary" should be cleared with the RM (takedowns etc). hey if I was the one faced with the liability issues I'd want to make sure my instructors knew what they were doing and didnt take risks without checking first.

Trouble is getting around to doing it. Early classes only have an hour which doesnt leave a lot of time for it. Late class seems to prefer sparring. I think theyd cheerfully spar the whole 90 minutes if we let them. Might try some this week if I can drag their mits and pads off them for a while.

I reckon self defence should be taught. Some people join for that very reason. the doorknockers are called "self defence consultants." If we dont teach it are we fulfilling what was promised to them?

i agree hip throws ect are probably not the way to go on a hard wood floor, but how to get out of headlocks,bearhugs or someone grabing you wrist ,shirt front or on the shoulder i think can be very useful, and you don't even have to show them how to put wrist or elbow locks on after they have freed themselfs, just breaking the grab is enough. like you said the door knockers are called self defence consultants so a bit of self defense plse. and i'm one of these people that would spar all lesson if i could, the one thing i like as much is the self defense thing, and i'v found most students really get into it aswell :thumbgrin:

Ya, we usually get in about 10-15 mintues of self defence, in which we do one or two different moves. And you don't really need that much time to show a few little techniques.

Bleh. I'd rather do kata all lesson.

I agree, I love kata. And when you start getting into the SD applications of kata it just gets better.


Mick

Yah, absolutely.

have i ever mentioned i HATE!!!!!! kata i'd rather stand in sumo for the whole bloody kata time (if my old legs would let me)

lol - careful what you wish for fang

lol sensei's no sense of humor matt , and i thought you where an understanding person oh well guess i'll just start pratising my sumo.

Hi Fang,

If you really think about it, it doesn't make sense to hate kata. It can make sense to dislike being judged on your performance of kata, but kata is another training tool in your study of karate.

Kata are a collection of both fundamental and advanced techniques and are arranged in short combative chunks suitable for sparring or self-defense. By that I mean there are many jujutsu-ish techniques that allow escapes from being grabbed and there are many techniques of impact.

The combination of the two together are only found in the kata. If you already have a long list of escapes from grips, joint-locks you can apply to the fingers, wrists, elbows, shoulders, neck, back, knees and ankles, throws you can apply from a variety of positions, chokes and strangles and finally a list of dirty tricks that include gouging, butting, spitting, raking, pulling, etc. and necessary combinations of receiving various techniques of impace from the four limbs and their bits and pieces that can be used in attack, of course notwithstanding being bumped with the shoulders, butted with the head and swept with the legs.. or thrown oh gosh, lets leave it to the kata :-)

Regards,
Boz

Wow, Fang. I think you've been told. Guess there's no reason for you to hate kata now.

sorry boz it may not make sense but i hate kata, i like to do a few of them granted but mostly i hear the word and think to myself not this bull***t again, the only thing i see kata being anygood for is footwork and getting the hips right for blocking/striking ect.
oh and i'v been told my kata is pretty good, i am often asked to demonstrate the higher ones ie black belt and above with my sensei's to the rest of the class.the reason i learnt the higher ones when i woun't need them for a long long time we are talking loooooooooooong time is, ihad a sensei that wanted to learn them and she sort of made me her training partener, before and after class, which was great because we got along outside the dojo aswell, and as my mother use to say if you don't like something on your plate eat it first and leave the good stuff to last, same thing here i guess if i know them already i don't have to spend time in the dojo learning them( it did backfire but i ended up teaching the higher belts kata, mmmm mum where are you we need to talk)