Likewise JC! I think you'll find that a number of GKR members in the UK have repeatedly tried to ascertain what insurance arrangements GKR has in place for its instructors in the UK. They've gone through every possible channel open to them - club instructors, RM's, ZD's, contacting the organisation in Australia etc. etc. They have been repeatedly misinformed and fobbed off.

So why should someone 'request a representative of an organisation produce insurance certification'? Common sense mate.

I'm talking about the UK JC, not Australia. I won't pretend to guess what's appropriate or relevant in another country. Equally, while I'm sure your knowledge of the 'the legislative assembly and parliamentary council' is impressive, it has no relevance to litigation law in the UK.



You might yes, I won't pretend to know enough about litigation to guess whether that would be successful or not. But I have no doubt that, in the UK, if a student were seriously injured whilst under the supervision of an instructor, then the instructor would be the first person to be examined in any legal claim. That is precisely why martial arts instructors in this country have professional indemnity insurance. If it wasn't necessary, we wouldn't be bothering to pay for it.



Yes quite, and you've just demonstrated that you know as little about ours as I do about yours.

Bottom line is that member instructors have a right to be fully informed about what insurance arrangements the company makes on their behalf, if indeed any such arrangements really exist. And the company has a duty to make such information available and unambiguous. That clearly isn't the case.

Mike

Seeing as I keep saying GKR should provide proof, I thought maybe I should provide proof of what I've been trying to get you to understand. Just a quick two minute search brought up a couple of links that I think you'll agree demonstrate the point...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1836223.stm

http://www.bnmaa.co.uk/uploads/Know_Your_R...Instructors.pdf (page 2)

http://www.activesportscover.co.uk/individuals?tSIDchk=1

http://www.uk-martialartist.co.uk/articles...rganisation.php

So you don't need to take my word for it.

Mike

No problem with any of those responses Mike

My point remains, the organisation is at fault, not the instructors. No representative (BI, RM, ZD..) is able to produce that kind of certification. I'm sure there is some way of obtaining it and I guess that's through legal proceedings. Yes, instructors need to demonstrate an element of trust in the organisation....but there seems to be a demonstrated track record in people giving and receiving very little in return with the organisation in question.

The real bottom line is this organisation has opened itself up to counter-litigation by its members on the basis of negligence, provision of mis-information, ex-gratia's etc etc.

Perhaps this is why those instances where pursuit of damages is made against the organisation, they are often (through great difficulty) dealt with out of court and away from insurance claims as far as possible....

Of course...all without hard evidence isn't it

JC

Granted, I don't disagree with that at all. But it beggars belief to imagine that people at Regional Manager level don't have some knowledge of what insurance arrangements exist for their member instructors. Or at least be able to find out such information on behalf of their member instructors. They may not be guilty of instituting the policy, but surely they are party to keeping their members in the dark on the subject. Imagine a Regional Manager of any other company claiming that they were unable to verify the details of the terms and conditions for the company's representatives in their area?



No doubt GKR has opened up a potential hornet's nest in terms of litigation against itself. But I suspect that would be cold comfort indeed to any unfortunate instructor who finds themselves being sued. Once they've been bankrupted and forced to sell their house where will they find the funds to enter into a further civil action with an uncertain outcome.

Ultimately its the members and member instructor who stand to lose out in all of this.

Mike

This is exactly my point.
The students will lose out. Not GKR, the instructors or anyone else but the students.

I'm not trying to cause trouble like some seem to assume but I cant understand why in world where the standard of martial arts has fallen so low do we allow people to con others when we know it is going on.

NOBODY, whether its GKR or not should be teaching without a licence. Its morally wrong surely?

This is what I want to discuss, does GKR insure its teachers? Wheres the proof of a proper licence? And from some of the great replies I've had it seems like there is no proof. So what can we do to help this situation?

Any ideas?

IMO if people took responsibility for themselves and had/used a little common sense then the issue almost becomes moot. I say almost only because you have to allow for the possibility of something totally unexpected happening.

I feel like I've said this before. I probably have... We're practicing a martial art. You ask most people what martial arts is and they'll say it's about fighting even if the only thing they know is from the spoof film Kung Pow. If you do anything involving another person in training there's a chance you could get injured. Maybe it's a broken nail or maybe it's a broken bone, the only difference is the amount of injury.

I've long since lost count of the number of complaints I've heard about people being hit in training. I'm not talking about being hit by someone who is overly aggressive, trying to prove something or just careless, I mean accidental contact. You have two people throwing hands and feet around. Expect to be hit at least once in a while. Now I just tell them to get over it or quit. It's just whining.

Insurance is for accidents that result in injuries beyond what you might normally expect. Yes I know everyone has a different definition of normal. If there's some other factor like haemophilia where bruising becomes dangerous then it goes on the membership application so the instructor knows.

BUT...

If you know you have to be careful with something, can't do something or shouldn't do something because it might aggravate a condition then you don't do it. You tell your training partner, if you have one, and tell the instructor why at an appropriate moment. It's not a problem, or at least it shouldn't be. If there is then a penalty for not following instructions then maybe you're in the wrong place.

Having said all that, insurance is for in case something bad happens. It should be for covering costs for repair and treatment. It shouldn't need to be there for extra claims for compensation for 'pain and suffering' and the like.


Mick

Agreed, but I doubt that this is very prevalent. If anything, my experience is that people don't claim at times when technically they could.

But the real need is in the thankfully extremely rare case where someone receives a significant injury which prevents them working and serious impairs their quality of life, lets say a broken neck for example. In such cases the individual has no choice but to claim in order to ensure that they can afford the medical care that they need and recompense for being unable to work. These are the cases where there will be a claim (has to be in fact) and these are the ones where it is going to be for a hell of a lot of money.

Thankfully its very rare, I don't think I've ever met anyone who made a claim regarding injuries sustained in martial arts.

Mike