The people whom I look up to the most in MA all have at least one attribute in common - economy of movement, a flow with seemingly little effort. Watching one of these people demonstrate movements from a kata, in the proper formalised manner, I wondered how much the formality of kata affects the development of this economical movement? Does it help or hinder? It isn't something that just happens after training for a thousand years because at least one of these people has been training for less than 10 years. Then again, I know others who have trained more than 10 years who lack the 'flow'.
If we are taught to put snap, strength and showiness into kata, what effect does this have on applying the moves? The grace of the application?

To be honest Nooms, Im coming to the conclusion that these are two different ways of doing karate and it might not be possible to have snap and strength as well as proper flow. But different horses suit different courses and for some people snap and strength with a modicum of flow works perfectly well in a self defence situation whereas for others the flow is all.

The way you perform a kata will ultimately be far different than the way you apply the techniques. By different I mean not-as-effective .

If you want to have effortless, flowing kata, just relax. Do not force the breathing or tense the muscles unnecessarily. Kata is a formal routine and you don't really need to tense up at any stage.

Remember, you are punching and kicking thin air, the way your body does techniques is different than when you strike/grab an actual opponent.

If "snap, strength and showiness" equates to form over function, then I can't comment, as we don't train our kata that way. Precision of the kata form however is something we do practice. I don't see why you can't have precise kata and have flow and functionality too, providing you focus your practice on the practical application of the content and not things like the millimetre perfect position of your little finger.

The basis of the practical application is the kata form. As such it should provide a consistent reference point and therefore should be precise in how it's taught and how it's performed. "Snap and showiness" have no place here; "strength" I would substitute for "power". Applied applications however may bear little aesthetic resemblence to the actual pure kata, but with uphold and adhere to the core principles of the kata, as that's where the true meaning is to be found.

I think "snap" is largely a by-product of stopping a fast technique where it needs to be stopped when you're doing solo practice and not striking into a target. It's the look of the technique and something that doesn't change when you are hitting a target. The difference is that the target is doing the stopping for you.

I agree with markp on "power" instead of "strength". Strength depends so much on the person but power comes from how someone uses what strength they have. Of course there are some who think heavy breathing and tension is showing strength. They forget it can also be a result of constipation


Mick

Morning all

I noticed that there seems to be different thoughts on performing Kata.

With GKR the moves have to flow, and be sharp and snappy, as well as the other ingrediants.

Other styles, i have seen are literally a series of moves that are performed, fast and slow depends whats being done, but with long pause between each move.

Also i have seen kata performed where the focus seems to be on the speed of the kata done.

Sam

I have had my eyes blasted open this year, mainly from watching the guys at the world cup(!) but also our RM has helped a lot with pushing us to their level of thinking!

I've actually gone back and looked more closely at all the kata's learning as many bunkai's and improving them as much as i can. I know this is going to take a few years as everyone knows there's always something to work on.

at the moment our sensei is trying to get us to understand the meaning of the moves, that way you can get a better grip of what you're trying to do which should then lead you to a better understanding of how to get power/speed.

it's obvious that to move fast you must relax but it's getting the power on the end of it that's the hard bit! We move in combo's now, so every kata isn't done as a whole that much anymore which i find helps loads! I've also noticed this in my students too which is a great feeling!

You might look for a book called "Karate Kata and Applications" by Morris and Trimble. They go through Shotokan kata. Mind you, half of it is (IMO) rubbish but the rest is ok. I suppose for its time it was at the leading edge of investigations into bunkai.

The trouble with bunkai, or oyo, is not that people start with a stomach level lunge punch as the attack to do their bunkai thing on. The trouble is that they usually finish at that level.


Mick

Some advice that you may not like, but its the best advice anyone ever gave me,....
Forget everything your RM says about "bunkai". Do some research online (theres some good threads in here somewhere... must update the archive one day) or if you can find a knowledgeable person better still. GKR bunkai is just something simple made up to give some sort of meaning to what you are doing. When you discover something akin to what you are really doing (people will argue for decades about whether it actually is) it's like the veil has been lifted.

This book may help if you're just starting out exploring bunkai. As Mick says, it was cutting edge for a time. But Vince Morris' later publication are far, far better IMO. His 'Kyusho Secrets' is available online and gives a good introduction to application ideas for both the Heian kata and Kanku Dai.

Mike

lol yes i agree about the bunkai's starting with stomach punch. That's why we're going into in a lot more depth. My RM wants to learn as much as we do and he's not afraid to do research elsewhere, the same as us, esp if we're doing our own training (seperate from gkr) and he's there.

It's probably not gkr's ideal RM but to us he's just another student who wants to learn more. He's still teaching gkr stuff but looking at the techniques we do in a bit more detail than what's normal in gkr classes...i guess that's the down side to having so many classes being taught by low grade instructors.

Sionnagh: I've bought a book about shotokan kata/bunkai a few years back but misplaced it...i'm sure my brother stole it! I really should try to find it

Why bother learning 'bunkai' at all?

Well, many don't bother. Others have formalised bunkai that must be learnt along with the kata for grading and don't go beyond that, even to the point of asserting anything else is wrong.

You can go the other way and practice self defence techniques without a partner.... which then starts looking suspiciously like kata sequences


Mick

Except that kata are formalised and stylised, and once techniques become like then they lose their value. And why practice them in long sequences for any other reason than to aid your memory?

Hi Brad

I agree that if you think of the movements as techniques they lose value, but I think its quite different if you think of them as principles. As long as you understand the principle then practising it in the context of kata is a useful exercise. But its not the be all and end all of karate. There are other principles to be practiced that are not found in kata. And of course there is much partnerwork to be done.

The problem IMO is that many karateka get hung on solo repetition of the kata, concerning themselves with aesthetics (including the overt demonstration of apparent power) rather than an understanding of the inherent principles.

Personally I've made changes to the way that I practice kata over time. If I just kept the solo practice of kata exactly as I did it 10 years ago (just trying to be harder or faster) I think I would have peaked in terms of what I can get out of it. But the katas are not written in stone and can be played with in order to condition your mind and body in different ways. Again, though I must reiterate that solo kata practice should only be one small part of karate.

Why long sequences? No particular reason I think, you could easily break them up into much smaller exercises. In the past people would only generally practice a handful of kata that they learn slowly under the tutelage of an experienced teacher. So remembering the sequence was not, I suspect, something that required much effort, but it could be a useful mnemonic device for remembering the principles as taught by that particular teacher. Now we tend to practice rather more kata more effort is required to remember the various different sequences. There has to come a point where one learns so many kata that too much effort is put into simply remembering the sequence and not enough (if any) effort into understanding the lessons it teaches and putting those lessons into practice.

At the end of the day you only need a handful of kata, and they don't need to look pretty.

On another note, how's the ju-jitsu going?

Mike

I'd never heard the term 'mnemonic device' before I went onto karate forums , but now that term is synonymous with kata for me.

BTW the ju-jitsu is going great, thanks for asking .