Hi Folks,
At time of posting, this is what Wikipedia has to say about this kata



I`ve heard this kata being described as a two-man grappling exercise, and seen a couple of applications which tend to suggest this.
I`m also interested in the phrase "Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi’" which, to my mind, suggests that we ought to look at this kata, or series of kata more closely.

Tom.

Well it does have everything - balance, movement, speed, strength, flow, practical applications...

Maybe there's a marketing opportunity here - "Naifanchi for Everyone"?


Mick

And coffee.

Thankyou Kathie
Going back to the theory that Naihanchi was originally one whole kata rather than three seperate ones, has anyone pieced them together, and if so, what did they draw from it?

Hi Tom,

I put the three of them together in one single kata and we practised it for a trial period. What I found was that there was little benefit in doing so. The real lesons from Naifanchi is in the movement learned rather than the atual techniques. Kata is more than application and performance, unfortunatly many people move forward from performance to application but miss another important area. There is much talk about principles, etc. but often they are really discussing self defense principles which can be learned separate to kata as they are in other MA. Some will read this and wonder what the hell I'm talking about but I talk about it all the time and it remains hidden out in the open.

Cheers,
Boz

Boz,
So would it be true for me to say that the real benefit in learning Naihanchi would be to gain experience in footwork and linear movement, rather than looking for applications that may even not be in there?
Like you say, maybe it just really is that simple.

Hi Tom,

Hell Tom if it was that bloody simple then B & W belts really could teach karate.

You should have come to Brisbane too

cheers,
Boz

Welcome. It does have coffee, though... and therefore is a most important kata...


Yes. I did actually. Thankyou for the total confusion!
I honestly can't see anything kata can be useful for other than "doing" or "applying".

Hi Kathie,

In that case you will join the hordes of people applying what they are doing in kata. And what they are doing in kata is not (generally) what is supposed to be applied. I'll only confuse you more.. zip! So sorry!

Cheers,
Boz

Ah so there's actually no point in me learning kata at all... cool!

Hi Kathie,

Actually you have to learn at your own pace, through your own efforts and over time, knowledge that you already possess becomes clearer. It is sometimes easy to pick up a few clues off the more experienced posters that frequent the forum but in the end there are no shortcuts.

There are a few who have taken the time to study and ask questions and pick the brains of others. However to truly understand karate one needs the hard physical training over time with an experienced sensei who has been down that track, and not a peer with a few months more experience.

Cheers,
Boz

I have recently studied Tekki Sandan, and in order to gain more understanding of that I also looked at the two other Tekki kata.

Tekki Sandan is an interesting kata in that it seems as though the top half of the body does not match the bottom half. It's a bit like when you first start learning to drive and the feet are doing one thing whilst the arms are doing another. T3 really helps isolate the split movement and also helps train a better co-ordination of the body. Add to that the explosive movement needed, and the practice needed to generate power without sacrificing body dynamics and we have an interesting kata... and that's before we even look at application!

I have also practiced T3 as a sticky hands two man drill (not a bad thing to do with any kata).

Apart from that I studied the applications from a groundworking position, both from on top and underneath.

All good fun!

For anyone who's interested, I found some neat videos on youtube of the Tekki kata - the dude performs the kata, then again in slow motion, then breaks it down into segments done at full speed then slo-mo. It's a great way to get a feel for the concepts in the kata.
Tekki Shodan
Tekki Nidan
Tekki Sandan

I thought learning better co-ordination and generating power etc would have been part of the application of the kata? The principles of self defence include basic principles of how to move from point A to point B most effectively, at least the way we are taught. As a wise karateka once said: "Kata provide examples of how karate can be best utilised but there are limitations to kata" - so why the need for a mystical non-named element beyond doing or applying?
And for the record, Boz, neither of my instructors qualify as "a peer with a few months more experience" so I guess all I need now is another 30 years of training or so

Indeed. The little pieces of a jigsaw combine to make the bigger picture. And in the same way a jigsaw is incomplete without all its pieces, or a single piece on its own is of little use, then we could say the same about the principles within each kata. The whole concept of bunkai is to take apart, and then we can study each piece individually, but at some point in order to become useful as self defence it needs to be slotted back together, hopefully with a greater understanding of how/why it works etc.

Lets say, for example, the end application is a headlock, in order to gain this end successfully we need to know how to get there, how to start to lock it in, how to apply a choke or strangle, and the principles behind the movement of A to B that make it all work. Everyone observing sees a plain old headlock being applied, but we know that behind the movement is a whole string of principles being applied that is the difference between the technique working or failing.

I don't really agree with the idea that there are hidden aspetcs within kata available only to people only after years and years of study. This says to me that people have been withholding information, including how to take apart and analyse a kata successfully. The only reasons I see for this are to create an artificial gap between the grades or to make an instructor seem much more knowlegeable (IMO).

Hi Kathie,

Wow, sorry, you are fantastic, love your work. Forgive my stupid remarks.

Boz

Hi Angela,

Sorry, you are right. I never meant to imply that anyone needs to train for 30 years or more to understand anything. With a good teacher you know it as soon as they teach you.

Apologies,
boz

Boz,

Sorry if you felt that part of my post was aimed at you, it wasn't. I was not saying that you had implied anything, nor that you yourself withold information etc. it was just a general statement

Hi Angela,

Okay, thanks for straightening that out. Perhaps you would like to educate Nooms on Naifanchi and I can stop irritating her.

Cheers,
boz

Never! I thought that was one of your major goals to irritate the Nooms, Boz. Or at least to confuse the shit out of me. Apologies for biting (again), Boz.
Angela, thanks for that.

And it's a huge jigsaw puzzle at that. Which is where the years and years comes into it, I guess, finding the pieces and putting them together.


So how much of the puzzle is the mini-puzzle of Naifanchi/Tekki? Does karate really begin and end with this kata?

Naifanchi is/was regarded as a fundamental kata. A popular myth is that Choki Motobu only knew Naifanchi kata. Another myth that consistently reappears is that it's for fighting with your back to a wall.

In naifanchi you practice rooting, moving without compromising your balance, executing techniques without retracting in preparation and perhaps more importantly executing those techniques without telegraphing what you're about to do.

Applying those things to other practice probably should be automatic but often isn't.


Mick

What is the purpose of 'rooting' in Naifanchi? I'm also confused about the 'moving without compromising your balance'- how do you do that? Is there more to the execution of techniques without preparation than just 'telegraphing'?

Boz

Not sure I understand exactly what you mean there but I'll try to explain what I meant. When you are settled into Naifanchi dachi for the kata you are instructed to tense the legs and so strengthen them. I also tend to 'sink' into it much as I was taught when learning Sanchin. Tino Ceberano actually did a very good demonstration and description of this at one of the seminars Rod invited us all to last year. I think there is mention of it elsewhere. Stepping is done in quite a deliberate and controlled manner and the sweep (or returning wave kick) should happen without shifting the rest of the body. Some descriptions have it as being for maintaining your footing on rocky or slippery ground a la "in the olden days". In the city while it may be likely the ground is uneven it's perhaps more likely you find yourself on a slippery surface. This view is probably actually not so different to skating - maintaining your "platform" irrespective of what you're standing on. So you settle into a solid base from which you can work the hand techniques without the ability or opportunity to use footwork.


It seems unlike you to be confused about something Boz. I guess you mean it more in a sense of can I explain what I mean or am I just throwing out lines and posturing for the masses?

It is a poor explanation to be sure so I'll try to do better. If I was to use the video posted in the Tensho thread as reference then I'd say that every time the demonstrator's body follows the movement of his hands around instead of being settled in a relatively solid position (as it is momentarily when they do the breaking of sticks) or when he steps then his balance is compromised. IMO when you are settled in a position or when you are moving, if you are aware of your direction of movement, aware of the direction your centre of balance or centre of gravity is moving then you are in control of your movement. If you move and are unaware of the direction your centre is moving, as many people do particularly in the early stages of training and even later if they have never had it brought to their attention, then you find situations such as it is hard to move from one position to the next in kata, that you keep overbalancing and stumble. If someone was to redirect your motion with a push or a strike it becomes likely you can be sent sprawling, unable to recover and ending with an uncontrolled fall. But when you are aware of your own movement then being redirected unexpectedly poses much less of a problem. I'd say that this is nowhere more apparent in everyday life than someone who trips or slips and either recovers without having a moment of panic (or even an "eek!") or falls safely through e.g. practice in falling and a development of this awareness even at an unconscious level which such practice brings.



There are some schools who espouse a philosophy of not using more force than is required to achieve the desire outcome (hard to judge in some situations) and of not making unnecessary movements. I'm sure if I dug out my Shito-Ryu syllabus and student manual I'd find something in there about unnecessary movement. Where Shotokan is stereotyped as having overly large powerful movements and you can find they have techniques which have a large preparation before execution, another school may consider it better to avoid unnecessary movement, to take the shortest path between two points which itself means not 'telegraphing' without actually saying it out loud. This also means starting from where you are and not having overt preparation.

There is also the aspect of close quarters defence (and attack but defence first) where you may not have the time to move and reposition that you do when facing an attack which starts at a distance. I say may not but this doesn't mean you can't still move, just that you would need to move while engaged in hand techniques without linking the hand movment to foot movement. This necessitates starting the next technique from where the previous finished, or you get hit, or lose a chance to strike. It also means defending just enough rather than too much (over-blocking and leaving yourself open).

In Naifanchi we see the legs settled into a solid base while executing hand techniques, and the movement of hands and feet occurring separately to each other.


Mick

Thanks,
Boz