Hi All

I have noticed a growing trend of people learning kata from video's / DVD's. I have witnessed shotokan people doing Shito-Ryu or Ryueiryu kata just to point out an example. The kihon were wrong and it was clearly evident to people who know these kata. I have even spoken to people who admit to learning kata from video because it looked good or their teacher didn't know the kata to teach them.

What are your thoughts. I am all for your own schools kata to be on DVD etc to be used as a reference when needed to answer a question etc. But not to be directly learnt from.

Another growing trend is that people are doing a kata version that is not their own schools but another schools version. (ie different Shito-Ryu or Goju groups). Are individual school kata going to disappear because a standard kata (whether for competition or lack of understanding) is perceived as the correct way to do it.

Hope this will get some good discussion going.

Colin

I use Video/DVD only as an aid for clarification of some points when I’m learning a new kata. As for learning kata from outside our School, I personally enjoy the challenge, however, I treat it as an enjoyable diversion from the regular syllabus. That’s not to say I won’t think about it and learn something.




Imo it’s up to the schools to maintain the syllabus and kata. If, by modifying the syllabus, to suite preset day trends, then the kata will also slowly change. I also believe there needs to be a clearer distinction in most schools between competition karate, self defence karate and the strict traditional karate.

If you have to learn from another source, particularly one that provides only one way tuition, then surely the instructor and class are not the right one for you no?

Very true. However many people seem to feel the more kata you know the better you are. So they just try to learn everything and everything including from DVD.

For example Ryueiryu Kata are not part of the Shito-Ryu System. They were only part of Hayashi-Ha Shitoryu (who did not actually train under Mabuni Sensei) as he learnt them from that group. It was common knowledge that Hayashi-Ha did these kata (no problems). No other Shito-ryu group did them. Now many Shito groups have included these in their training. Ryueiryu kata were put out on video years ago and all of a sudden they pop up all over the place.

But really with so many kata already Shito-Ryu people don't need any more.

Hi Colin,

Well if we look to see where the modern kata came from, it does become hard to blame those that learn other kata apart from that in their own school. Shotokan's founder was teaching a total of 20 kata for certain and possibly more when he first taught in Japan. There is a book that I have by one of his early students that shows these 20 kata. I also learned them in an old Shoto style that was not JKA.

Nakayama though added kata from Shitoryu, that had already been modified by Mabuni, and shotokanized them. Niseishi became Nijushiho, Jiin, Chinte and Unsu with no name change and another or others. Shitoryu adoptd kata from Itosu (both shuri and Tomari lineage), Higashionna, Ishimine, Aragaki, Miyagi, Matsumura, Gokenki, Uechi and created a few more of his own such as Jyuroku, Aoyagi (with Konishi) and Myojo. Wado's founder, Ohtsuka, mixed kata he learned from Funakoshi with kata he learned from Motobu and Mabuni. Since then a few other kata have been added. So it still goes on today.

Your main thrust appears to be the Ryueiryu Kata but Hayashi was able to slip those in when he was on the WKF or the JKF technical committee. By placing them in there under Shitoryu, his people were able to have all of their kata recognised. Goju has about 12, Shotokan 26, Shitoryu 300 () and Wado 9 or whatever the numbers are. I agreeits not fair as far as competition goes but in the bigger picture, karate should not be dictated by one's kata and kata are not owned by any one school. I agree with you about using DVD's as a reference only. The sad part is that some schools have students that learn more from the DVD's than they do from their own instructors

Boz

I agree with you about using DVD's as a reference only. The sad part is that some schools have students that learn more from the DVD's than they do from their own instructors

Boz

Totally agree. As I've said in a previous post, I ask one of my sensei's to perform a kata for me whilst I record him on my mobile phone. I can only go to the dojo three times a week now and thats not total kata. My trouble is, I really really enjoy doing the kata's so I use my phone purely as a referance. Not my guide.
I always arrive early at the dojo to ask how a move is done, and 'would you do the kata with me slowly please?'

By the way, alot of my instructors and dojo mates went to the Dewsbury tournament last sunday and picked up gold and silver for their kata. So, I feel very safe learning from them.

I suppose you have to think where does it stop. When is enough kata enough. Different Shotokan Groups and Goju groups are now also inventing new kata. Maybe thats just the way things are destined to travel.

Seiko-Kai has a set of 27 core kata. These are the kata for grading purposes. While Shito-Ryu has numerous kata which my teacher is happy for us to practice he is only interested in these 27. I have seen people ask him about a kata not on the list and he just says "no".

On the other hand I talk with him about kata and he is happy to give me input.

I think it depends on what reason you learn additional kata for. We don't do a lot of kata performance per se but we do a lot of practical kata work, so I'm more than happy with the kata we learn (and I've only just started on Seiunchin with Saifa being my grading kata).

If you are only looking for "flash" kata to impress at a tournament, a video might be enough to learn the movements and make them look snappy. In this case you wouldn't be looking for indepth knowledge, so why not?

I have a bit of a "special interest" in Naifanchi kata, ever since being introduced to it at a seminar and I get information from where I can: i. e. books, online tuition ( ), videos etc. Luckily, my instructor practices this kata too and is always happy to help. Now it's not something I will ever grade with or compete with, it is just a personal thing for me. No harm done.

I think learning kata from videos is only a problem if people feel they are bored with their syllabus and that is why they feel the need to move up to the next kata or kata outside the system.

Hi Colin

I have to confess that I have learnt kata from video before now. However, the circumstances are certainly different from trying to learn a kata for competition purposes. Any time I've done so its been purely to try and understand the kata's purpose as a practical training tool. Obviously it would be far better to have a competent teacher to hand who can teach you that kata, but if that's not the case and for whatever reason you feel a need to learn that kata, then it seems not unreasonable to attempt to do so from video. At least that way if you do meet someone who understands the kata you'll be in a stronger position to absorb what they teach you - if nothing else you should already be familiar with the sequence of moves.

On the whole though, it seems more pertinent to spend time on endeavouring to understand the kata you already have, rather than learning yet more kata.

Mike

When Im learning the next kata in my syllabus, I find a dvd/little video off the internet an invaluable resource to remind me what move comes next. However, most of the time things are done so fast that that is all it is - a reminder of the move, not the precise technique.

There are also those who encourage their students to buy their own DVD/video and learn at least the outline of the kata from that, and to then come to classes and get corrections and refinements or even (gasp ) updates on changes. In general I think this is to do more with generating income than saving time because you can teach sections of kata more quickly to a student than they can learn by themself off video.

Direct teaching also has the advantage that you can show, describe and have them do all at the same time, and with more than one student at a time, thus taking account of people's different learning styles.


Mick

And for some dojo's they encourage you to purchase the DVDs so that they can make money from them. I have seen that happen.

What I mean is that the tapes aren't that beneficial and in reality aren't worth what they are charging. Well you know what I mean - sometimes I think they lose sight of the teaching aspect and only focus on the money making aspects.

Speaking of learning kata from videos...
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...=ADME:B:SS:AU:1

What I noticed was the spelling of the kata names.


Mick

Ah yes. Mr Richardson. A fairly controversial figure in the MA world - from what I`ve heard. Reputed to be a very good Martial-Artist though. I`d be interested to see what the DVD is like.

Are you still advertising yours, Mick?

I find these DVDs useful for reference rather than to learn from.

I don't think there is a black-and-white answer for this. On the one hand, if a person is interested only in teaching then the videos would be available to students for free or at cost. On the other hand there are a number of reputable teachers who make their living (or try to) from instructing in which case videos may well come under that heading, and justifiably so. There is still a line though where it crosses from being a supplement to becoming purely a merchandising exercise and a means to squeeze more money from a student base.

In any event, videos (and books) are necessarily a supplement to regular lessons and not a replacement. Having made a few videos (plug - available on ebay) it quickly became clear that you need an instructor to help with learning material and it can't all be gained from video or book simply because of the feedback necessary from a capable person to adjust technique, timing and positioning.

On top of this conscious decisions need to be made at the time of producing a video of what information to provide and what to omit. Sometimes the creator will choose to omit critical details, which is of little consequence to those with the existing knowledge to be able to use the material as a supplement but can make a huge difference to the person seeking to learn entirely from a video.


Mick

I just had a skim through of Iain Abernethy's "Bunkai Jutsu" vol 1 (Heian/Pinan kata). I wish I'd looked at it before, there's months worth of stuff in there that could be regurgitated in class! (Just kidding on that point btw).

Actually what first piqued my interest was a review I saw which mentioned he was doing older versions of the kata - he probably is but it looks like older versions of the Shotokan versions to me. I could be wrong of course.

What did occur to me though was how badly an attempt at teaching the applications could go if someone were to watch it with a view to going and teaching it at the next class. I suppose you could always blame the partner for attacking wrong as the reason something doesn't work though.


Mick

I like learning kata from video. I dont show anyone or try to reteach it or anything. Just for fun.

I've tried to learn kata from video and books - and failed miserably! I just can't seem to make the connection unless i've actually got someone there to show me - mind you, this might have something to do with my low levels of patience sometimes