I trained with GKR for about 6 years last 2 were on and off, In my time there I trained most of my time in the Instructor program loved my karate started teaching a class, did this for 1 year I loved it so much I decided to go full time, I spoke with my sensei and regional manager about how to go about this he put me on the track with encouragement, told me all about the money I would make so I thought great quit my job and joined full time team,About 2 days in I came back in but I only managed to sighn a couple of members but said a few just didn't have the money on the night, sensei went off "you get the money even if you have to ask them to give up their rent for the week make them beleive this is more important it's now or never" my esteem for this man dropped to near zero I have high values and would never ask such a thing.

After that I saw GKR for what it realy was nothing but a pyramid scheme with kancho
shihan
and so on
the last couple of links being regional instructors and sensei's.

sensei's don't get paid therfore all class fees go to regional manager.

I mean Kancho isn't even very good at karate just a good business man.

GkR takes money from people who want to learn a martial art then puts them in a class that could have a sensei with a rank as low as 7th kyu, the door to door is a great idea gives people who might be intimidated by entering a dojo or can't locate a dojo a chance to start training in the martial arts the self defence consultants are very nice people under a lot of pressure by the club to recruit.

PITY THEY DON'T HAVE THE INSTRUCTOR BASE.

MONEY IS WHAT GOVERNS THIS STYLE.

My problem is will people who do GKR Karate think all other styles are dodgy as well and give up all together

its funny how you did karate for 6 years and it wasn't till you worked full time that you had a lot to whinge about. i work full time and well business is business, doesn't matter where the heck you do business or sales or anything its all numbers in a box. i feel sorry that you can sit there and bag an old man about not being good at karate(poor old kancho) when it took you a whole 6 years to figure out that you didn't like the style. i've done a couple of styles and this is the best one i've done. my first instructor was a green belt and he was one of the best teachers i had. what did you think you were gonna do when you worked full time do karate at the front door of someones house or business. you must of had a real desperate regional manager to say that kind of stuff but its got nothing to do with our clubs ethics its got to do with the individual. you've got to be ethical to start with can't expect the club to do it for you. and ethical in business ha ha thats a good joke. if theres any ethics you should be angry with then become a political poster child for an anti-business faction not the karate club. theres good people in this club who work hard at learning and teaching karate and there etiquette so why you bagging?

Good to see you back on the forum GKRStormer. Did you ever round to answering the question about mawashi-uke on the Bassai Dai thread?

http://www.karatedo-forum.com/forum/index....=1302&st=75

Bloodline, very outspoken views you've got there, but I must admit I'm inclined to agree with them.

Mike

With all due respect, if your best instructor was a green belt then you must have had some pretty poor instructors over time.

I'm pretty interested in how GKR's Instructor insurance works... the costs must be phenomenal having such low grade instructors leading the class. With our insurance the instructor has to be over 18 and a black belt. Over 16s can instruct if they are a black belt but must have a black belt over 18 on the mat with them, and coloured belts can assist but again must have the regulated number of BB instructors on the mat. (One instructor to every 15 students max).

Good point Angela.... Yet, I cant help but think... thank God for the low grades willing to teach. If they didnt I'd be an alcaholic with no life now. litrally mean that.
Angela, I am currantly training to be a sempai. When I get a black and white I will be teaching kids and new members who dont know one little thing. Why?.... Well so that the higher grade Sensei can teach the more established members of the class!
In my part of England we have only just got our first black belt. I train under him every tuesday. The other three nights I train under people that also train under him.

I dont give a shit about your pathetic views Bloodline. GKR has brought Karate to thousands who would never have thought to try it, giving them a new lease of life. Giving me a second chance, so I can make something of myself.

I really get the feeling that many on here are here simply to belittle GKR thus belittling its members, thus belittling me..... Well, hey, I'll tell you something. I would never of got off my arse to seek out a sport. They came to me. And the pains I had in my back and hips for fifteen years, with their training are no more. My confidence has risen so I dont have to hide behind my fears and I love life.

Hi Si,
Forum policy is to be tolerant of all views - positive and negative, of any style.
Bloodline obviously had a pretty negative experience with gkr to prompt him to go public with such a post (he was requested to edit out some of the harsher comments and obliged), you have had the opposite, it has changed your life for the better, and you likewise post about it. Dont take the criticisms as a criticism of you - most of us on staff have trained gkr extensively, and a couple still do (although THEY DONT POST MUCH!!! ). The criticisms here usually relate more to the technical flaws of the karate itself as opposed to the usual rants, and these are legitimate comments from long time practitioners who know about such things. You've defended your school and are happy training there - good for you! Our stories sound remarkably similar, and like me the day may come when you start wondering if there is more to karate. True I would probably never have got into it in the first place if it werent for gkr, but I am still trying to correct flaws in my technique from novice instructors who - albeit with the very best of intentions - simply didnt know what they were doing.

No long term member here is here simply to belittle your chosen style, although we occassionally get people such as bloodline come along. If they are genuinely interested in what they say they would stick around and discuss it in a bit more detail. Sadly few ever do... Make of that what you will

actually angela i think you miss construed what i said. let me clarify what i mean't by "my best instructor was a green belt".
my first instructor (the green belt) and i'll never forget him, when told i couldn't come to class used to drive 20 mins to pick me up from my house to take me there and on the way he would stop to pick up two other students on the way. he would also drop us home after and do this twice a week for 3 months until i could get my own transport. when we ordered equipment from class he would drive out and drop in to all of us the next day instead of waiting till the next class like all the other instructors. he put me into the instructors training program and also got me on to the nas state team. he always gave the impression that his students were better than him. always told us how brilliant we were at karate and that we were already better than him to boost our confidence. he had a good eye for technique and form but thats probably due to aikido hed done previously. so forgive me if i'm wrong but a man who can give that much deserves to be called the best instructor i ever had. i'm giving no discredit to my other senior black belt instructors because their karate is brilliant and the way they teach it is awesome, and i'm thankful for the time that they've given me and what they taught me. but they ain't given me a lift to karate yet and you know a persons dedicated to their students when they drive 20 mins to pick you up! oh and insurance is low! this is due to the non contact applications that are taught. all take down and contact applications are limited to 3rd kyu and above or instructors. instructors are limited to what kind of techniques that you can teach in public class. you can't even do push ups for cardio. its reserved for advanced classes.

I,m not bagging the karate taught, and my Instructor for most of my time was the regional manager I spent most of my time in the stp program, but karate should not be about how much money you can rake in and an instructor should never be less than bb. its the ethics that I am not pleased with how can a regional manager push people in that way 6 years yes then I woke up consider I taught my own class for over a year what the hell was I thinking you will all wake up and smell the bacon.

I have met Kancho on several occasions and there's nothing poor about him.
he himself admits he was never that good at karate.
Notice your never told who it is that grades Kancho his last grading was given to him by the club I was there
shihan gave it to him like a birthday present.
for all those that think Kancho is all that try speaking to instructors from other styles and find out what they think.
For every 1 student happy with GKR there has got to be 50 that are not would you entrust your children to a yellow belt instructor..

@AngelaG what insurance thats why it's non contact
No acreditaion
sometimes no police check or first aid.

I taught for over 6 months with no first aid or police check.

GKRSTORMER I also think most Instructors with GKR are great people but very few have anything to do with the running of the club.

hi mike, nah sorry i didn't get to the bassai dai question yet i'll come back after class and do it cause it'll take a a bit longer to do.

hey pleb don't worry about that blood guy at least theres 50,000 of us that love our club. i think if he's got the right to be angry and its alright with everyone then it should be okay if you get angry back . well not to angry i hope this is a forum! it can't be a one sided commentry or it gets boring!

and yeah matt i know bloodline had a bad experience with gkr but there isn't any need to pull the whole club down because of one stink regional manager. geez its a bit mean to the rest of us i mean hello we are in the forum room you know. its a bit rude to say that about ones club when one is in the room i mean of course people are going to retaliate.

okay okay bloodline. i'm taking it you have a philosophical vision about karate. fair enough then thats a beautiful thing in itself. i reckon it shouldn't be about money too. mainly cause i don't give a crap about money but my attitude won't keep the club running. hopefully the system will change as the club evolves. i'm worried my regional manager isn't getting the karate he wants mainly because the business consumes his time leaving nothing for his karate. its not fair! he gives all the time in the world for us and all he gets is money and not enough karate. thats not fulfillment to him. but he keeps on chugging along. i'm gonna talk to shihan about it. he's used to me whinging to him about stuff, but at least he listens. anyways, i'm all for more karate less money that sounds like a good thing. thats it i'm not gonna charge a cent to teach anyone-oh hang on i don't anyways so theres my dumb idea. see you guys after class.

And you are encouraged to do so. I'm sure bloodline was expecting a flame or two. To be honest I didnt think we'd see them again, but glad to see we did. Remember to keep it civil between members, and also bear in mind that the we've done this subject oh maybe once or twice before .





RM's cop it a lot worse than anyone else. The way the club treats their people is nothing short of appalling. Good for you for helping him out.

Regarding your green belt instructor - When me and Susan ran a class we used to do that sort of stuff too... bought second hand gi's for poorer students, arranged lifts etc.... Comes a time when the one sidedness of it all gets to you and the gratefulness of students only gets you so far.... Yes, I'm a tad bitter about my time there, but definately not with the people - I have lifelong friends through GKR. It's the push for global domination at any cost that got to me - the cost was always to the people doing the work. This is why you'll see countless posts from lots of people warning not to talked into 'sensei training programs' or doorknocking courses. For those of us who've done that it marked the point where we started to lose the enjoyment of our training

Most of the coherent posts bagging the club are just that - bagging the organisation and its operation, not the members.

Most of the instructors on here from other clubs have also frequently invited people along to train if they're in the area. No obligation and no cost, just come drop in and say hello and join in a training session. One of GKR's marketing points is that people can go to a class almost anywhere in Australia or the UK and find a class, but here on this very board we also have clubs represented around Australia and the UK who will happily accept visitors to drop in and train when people are travelling.

And let's face it, not everyone wants to learn how to fight. A goodly number just train for something to do or to get a bit fitter and "even" GKR is a darn sight more interesting than going to a gym for most people.

Of course it's distressing, irritating and insulting when people say things like "wow, I just got my orange belt and I've been invited to join the instructor program" because there are so many small things that get overlooked and poor technique being taught which all takes far longer to correct and retrain later than if it is taught properly the first time. Yes there are arguments that say you learn better when you teach to someone else, but usually it's conveniently forgotten that using this as an instructional tool only really works when it's supervised by someone with the knowledge and experience to directly support both learners.


Mick

And some people have the view that maybe the higher grade should be looking after the lower grades, because if you don't look after their basic training then their very foundation will be weak. A lower grade can take warm up, can correct the odd mistake, can occasionally take a lower grade through the basic moves of their kata, but leading a class or a portion of a class... no I don't think that is a great idea. (IMHO)

Just to make the point that it isn't only one style that isn't perfect:
I went dojo-hopping today - looking for a bit of variety, and happened to find a school running classes during the day... way cool, I'll go watch.
I rock up to watch the class. Was greeted mid-class by one of the black belt students ... um, half the class were black belt students! The rest are brown belt! So it's looking good. I watched different groups of students run through various kata, and was so impressed by the level of execution of techniques. Then they ran through all kinds of applications, depending on which kata they had been doing... I'm still impressed and bordering on awed by now.
Then I am approached by the head instructor, who was lovely. He introduced himself, asked if I had trained before... and I cheated a little. I know this guy is so unimpressed with GKR, so I deliberately mentioned I had trained with them a few years and was currently training elsewhere. I think that's when he decided I was blonde.
Him: Did you ever watch the Karate Kid movies?
Me: Oh yes.
Him: Well, you remember the old man? Mr Miyagi from the movies?
Me: Yes...
Him: He started this style, and he taught *this man* (pointing to a picture on the wall), and he taught me!
Me: [I think I'm supposed to say "Wow"]: Oh.

At which point he completely lost me, and I lost all interest in training there. Which may have been his point, but that seems rather self-defeatist to me.

Hmmm...... The instructor is obviously in a position where he can afford to pick and choose his students.
The "Mr Miyagi" line seems rather patronising to me.

Hmm - I dont know which would be worse... him actually thinking that would impress students, him taking the piss by saying it, or him actually thinking it was true....

Goju guy I take it?

i believe the guy was refering to Chojun Miyagi. The creator of Goju Ryu. However he was not the guy in the movie nor who it was about. Just same name and style. He had a few students and many of their students teach thoughout the world. So it is very likely the guy was telling you this... (in a round about way so you would understand).

If this is the case, then the style he teaches is (in theory) 'more pure' than other Goju derived styles, and will definately have more substance than GKR.

I believe the guy was referring to "the old man? Mr Miyagi from the movies?" seeing as that is what he actually said. I believe he *should* have been referring to Chojun Miyagi.
I am actually having a lot of difficulty replying to that post without wanting to tear strips off people. I find it offensive that anyone should assume that I would better understand Pat Morita starting a style than Chojun Miyagi. I don't see any reason at all why he wouldn't just say it was the actual founder who founded the style. That doesn't sound like a 'more pure' style to me. It sounds like a load of... mud....
I went to that particular class because I had listened to an interview earlier this week with the head of the style, who was, in effect, advertising for new students. However, I for one, am not interested in training with anyone who feels they need to dumb things down for their students. It defeats the purpose of learning if I'm being taught rubbish.

I must say, I find the whole thing quite bizarre. I think I might have felt obliged to say "What? Pat Morita's the head of your style?" And then walk away laughing my head off.

I can't decide which is more silly - that they would claim descent from Pat Morita or that they would deliberately confuse Pat with Chojun Miyagi to make things easier for their students to understand their history.

Quite odd, either way!

Mike

I think I would have... but then there's the whole don't correct a black belt thing. Or people in general.

"Don't correct a Black Belt....."

I can't quite see that one really.

It's just a matter of manners. Like not trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs.

You could have made all sorts of facetious comments in response. Better that you did not I think.


Mick

Gee some interesting posts on here the past couple of weeks, see what happens when you go away on holidays



Not so much think that all other styles are dodgy, but it is frowned upon by the club if you train in another style. Of course, its not if you are on the NAS team.

The thing is to not listen to anyone else and get out there and experience new things, whether it be karate, another style or anything in life.



I agree with that totally Pleb, if someone hadn't come knocking on my door I wouldn't have gotten off my behind and found out about karate classes in my area. For the time that I was with GKR, it was a great experience, I learnt heaps and made some great friends.



I was talking about this with someone the other day, about becoming part of the STP, and you know seeing as there is no payment involved in it, that has to be how they recruit new members for the program, by stroking their ego. I guess by starting with a lower belt they have a greater chance of success, because the person will be in awe that the have been privileged enough, and their karate thought good enough to be asked to be in it. I am not saying this happens in all cases, and I know there are some good sensei's out there.

Yeah I know all about your own development being stunted once you begin to teach, and bad habits overlooked and carried on for years after. It does take other people to point out where you are going wrong, and if noone points it out in the begining these bad habits become embedded in the subconscious.

Okay will stop rambling now, but I have one final thing to say, GKR is like anything you do in life really, it has its good points and bad points, and to get a balanced perspective neither side should be overlooked, so we should all just value each others opinions and experiences.

Thanks for your unbias responce, Mel... I kind of regreted my own responce, it was written after I had had a bad day at work. Thats inexcusable I know but honestly, if you have seen how my day went, it was no wonder.

Hey its okay Pleb, we all have those days

I tried to make my response on here unbiased, despite having some strong opinions about GKR, especially the STP. I guess the thing is to look at it as an overall perspective of my karate experience, plus the fact this is not the place for GKR bashing. I respect the fact that a few people on this forum still train with GKR, and enjoy to do so, in whatever context, and it is not my place to denigrate something that they enjoy.

I am always up for a friendly discussion and exchange of ideas though!

As far as I can see, the argument goes something like this

train with somebody, who takes 6 years to discover what GKR are about, my guess is that your full time job is'nt a detective.

train with AngelaG and have an experienced 16 year old BB teach you, oh as long as he has an experienced 18 year old BB on the mat with him, I wonder if they were sponsored by pampers when they started.

No, I think I would rather train with the green belt, thank you.

Oh hi by the way, i'm robster and this is my first post.

Ooh someone got out of the wrong side of bed today!

Actually, if you train with AngelaG you get me teaching you (27 years old), and the co-owner/instructor (50+ with over 25+ years of training). Both licenced black belts (full black not pretend black/white), both fully insured, both CRB checked, both with first aid training. I also have over 11 years experience of working with children, including special needs children.

GKR let children take classes... we do not. Instructors MUST be over 18 (that does not necessarily mean that they WILL be 18)., and MUST be proper certified black belts. This is what our INSURANCE insists on (not what is happening at my dojo). My point was that you will not get a kyu grade leading classes, nor a child... unlike GKR.

Please re-read my post before you go leaping to conclusions. Feel free to have the green belt teach you, just don't expect much from a company that lets people start to teach with a pseudo-black belt after a couple of months. I'm sure there ARE some great instructors with GKR, however that does not excuse the fact that there are also some very dodgy practices going on.

I'd also be very interested in knowing a) what the youngest black belt is in GKR and b) how old you have to be to be an instructor in GKR (not including all those higher grade kids that just get roped in to helping.. including teaching adults).

I'm afraid that I dont know the answers to any of your questions, I'm in my forties and a brown belt with
GKR and I'm not on any training programme, despite being asked several times.
Yes there are dodgy instructors in every MA, not just GKR.
My point which I probably didnt get across to well was, I would not take being trained by a 16 old BB serious
dont get me wrong, i am not slagging off your style as only last month i watched a lad who was no more than 9 or 10 get his brown belt with GKR.
I just dont think at 16 or 18 you could ever gain enough knowledge or experience to become a BB

sorry if I've got off on the wrong foot here

I disagree. I think a child that started at about 9 or 10 year old and worked hard and consistently could easily develop sufficient skill for 1st dan by the age of 16 (and most certainly 18). Younger than 16 and generally their body won't have developed the robustness necessary to deliver the power they should be able to generate at 1st dan - but they'd certainly be able to lay all the right foundations, then all that's needed is a bit of growing. I've seen kids in their mid-teens who are easily skilled enough to warrant 1st dan.



Surely its better to be trained by 16 year old 1st dan than a 30 year old 5th kyu? The 16 year old may lack life experience, they may lack maturity, but at least they have reached a reasonable skill level. At least they have acquired enough knowledge of the subject matter that they can begin imparting that knowledge to other people. This seems to me like the old tired arguments attempting to justify having green belts teaching. No amount of life experience, nice personality or even being a wonderful person can make up for lack of knowledge in the subject matter being taught.



No worries, nothing wrong with a bit of healthy debate.

Mike

I think it is dangerous to make generalisations. Some people want to say that you do not have the physical ability, or mental maturity, to earn a black belt until you are (insert age here). However I have seen "adults" act in an irresponsible and dangerous manner, and children act with a wisdom beyond their years.

We do not have junior grades at my club, everyone has to do the same test. If they cannot do that test and exhibit the knowledge needed then they fail. Simple! Last month we had a 13 year old grade to black belt. This guy seriously looked like a fully grown adult. He was build like a brick and could compete with any of the adults when it came to strength. He could easily handle his own in a pressure test situation. I've worked in a bar in the past and am pretty good at judging ages but this kid would have been served by about 90% of bartenders.

Shodan is seen as "competant beginner" where I train. A child that starts at 5 can easily show these traits by their teens. Remember that in some clubs Sandan is seen as the teaching grade, and black belts are not called sensei until then.

Hi Angela...

The youngest Shodan-Ho (Provisional black belt) I have heard of with in GKR is 12 years of age. The limit is usually 13 years for a a shodan-ho grading but aparantly this young lad showed exceptional skill and maturity.

HOWEVER, the age limit for teaching is 16 years. Belt limit for teaching or assisting in a class unfortunately is 8th kyu (yellow belt).

Though the majority of instructors are 4th kyu or above it has been known to have lower graded instructors (i must admit I was one of them at one stage).




No further comment at this stage...

coughs wot about ma little Bro
Vicki
x

I was wondering about that, how old is he?

oops... sorry sam...

i stand corrected vicki

one proud protective big sis there.

Stuffed, Sam was 11rs and one month, apparently the last bit is important

When I started sparring as a yellow belt from last February I was sparring the senseis 14 year old brown belt sister. Her techique and speed were for me, too difficult to get past. I stopped her and said that, although I'm twenty years her senior she has a wealth of experiance that I do not have in karate. I then went on to ask her to correct me. She was only to pleased to. I have no problems asking a youth to show me what they know when I havent the abilities.
A kid may know a skill and I seek to learn. What I wouldnt ask a kid is advice or opinions on life matters. They, like karate cme with experiance. A kid doesnt have many years to offer such advice

True, a kid may have the experience to be able to correct or help you in a class situation where you are partnered with them. They may even be able to teach you your kata or a new move in a class situation. But they do not have the experience or maturity to run a class on their own. I don't believe it has much to do with people feeling comfortable learning from a younger person but more to do with the fact that legally a child should not have control of a group of students.

Pleb said it, they lack the life skills needed to conduct themselves or a class successfully.

While since I've posted here...may as well jump into a controversial topic!

GKR has no official lower limits on age or grade for teaching or taking the BW belt.

I personally think an instructor should be 21 at the youngest and at least a shodan. Sandan would be preferable.

I taught my first class at 17/18. Im more mature than most my age. At age 219/20 I had a student colapse after suffering a massive anurism in class. I had the mental and emotional maturity to deal with the situation and stop him dying (though technically, for a while, he was). Im not too sure how many 16 year olds could say the same.

That goes for all clubs.

Wow, Rancer! Back from beyond the grave I see. Good to see you back. Got off your (fat or otherwise) arse and into some training?

Mike

how are the injuries coming along Rancer?

Wow, Rancer.

What a situation to end up in. Difficult for anyone let alone a 20 year old or even worse a 16 year old to have to deal with.

Glad to see you took the right course of action and helped the poor gentleman. But you/re right. How many young adults would have the knowledge or the mind set to handle that kind of situation with control?


ps... good to see you back.

Hi Mike,

Not really no.. I've not trained in a formal class environment since I got from Kent with Mr Rowe. Im busy trying to fix my knees at the moment and likely will be for a couple of years yet. On the plus side, all the work on the bike stops the GF complaining about my arse



Healed as much as they will, I think. Some permanent scaring though.



Ta

It took me years to sort mine out. 15 years ago I would never have dreamed that they'd be as robust as they are now.



Its nice to see the physio has some useful side-effects.

Mike

Off topic here... just for a change
What did you do to fix your knees?

Depends on what wrong with them, but karate based abse can be helped with riding bikes and swimming.

Builds up the muscles around the knees and take off some of the pressure.

Those exercises also specifically take pressure off the area of my knees that are worst!

My problem was chiefly a stretched anterior cruciate ligament (the other one's a bit stretched too but not as badly). That was compounded by associated cartilage damage and a history of having leaked the lubricating synovial fluid.

I went through several GP's who alternatively prescribed rest and exercise. Problem was that exercise aggravated the problem, but ultimately rest did the same (due to loss of muscle strength). Eventually one GP referred me for physiotherapy. This consisted of both strengthening and control exercises. I ended up doing these for possiblly as much as 2 years (certainly more than 1) before becoming robust enough to move on to a a more standard weight training regime.

Once I got onto the weights (primarily leg curls & extensions) I started with very low weights and reps, and just built them up very very gradually (otherwise I'd have just pranged myself again). That was about 11 years ago and I'm still now slowly incrementing the weights I move.

About 2 years after that I began studying shiatsu, which involves a lot of kneeling. Obviously my knees must have been feeling significantly improved by then. I expected my knees would find this very hard work and wasn't sure that I would be able to stay the course. But as it was, I succeeded, and the shiatsu actually seemed to help quite a lot.

Just as importanly as what I did, there is what I didn't do. I don't do any high kicks or inappropriately deep stances. I don't do running (I'll run for a bus or jog around the dojo) but I don't go running for miles or use a treadmill at the gym). Nowadays I avoid working kicks on a bag (other than knees or round shin kicks with my 'good' leg), but that's also to do with an ankle injury on the 'good' leg. I never ever lock my legs out straight for anyone - basically I've retrained my neuromuscular control to avoid activities that will specifically aggravate the damaged anterior cruciate ligaments.

Its been a long haul, but its definitely been worth it.

Mike

Interesting.
Thanks for sharing.
Glad to hear its all on the mend.