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Dandino
Hello everyone smile.gif

I have a question I woundered if anyone knew the answer to. As I understand it is bad etiquette to have either your sleeves of your gi rolled up past your elbows or your pants rolled up past your knees. I just wondered why it was wrong to do so. Not that I do roll my gi pants up. My knees are not my best feature lol. Any thoughts will be greatfully recieved.

Thanks Dandino
mike flanagan
Its not about etiquette, or at it least it shouldn't be. Its probably become 'etiquette' in some organisations because they've forgotten the very pragmatic reason for it: if you have your sleeves rolled out its possible for your training partner to get their finger caught in the turn-up (or toe for trouser turn-ups). While it doesn't happen often it can very easily result in a dislocated finger or toe.

The simple solution? if you need to roll your sleeves or trousers up, roll them up inside the sleeve rather than outside. By the same token, you shouldn't have trouser legs that are draping on the floor - if you need to roll them up GET 'EM ROLLED UP! (just on the inside not the outside)

Mike
Nooms
I was told it was etiquette too, but never found anything to back it up. I did once come across a site for a school that said it was bad etiquette, but not why. But the World Karate Federation doesn't allow gi parts to be rolled up at all (even on the inside) in tournament kumite - for the reason Mike said.
And some weapons schools don't allow it as the gi gives some protection against small injuries from your own weapon, apparently.
AngelaG
I roll up my sleeves if they are too long, and I don't care if students roll up their sleeves either. To be honest as long as they are in a clean/ironed gi I am not too fussy. I don't think it's that likely that anyone will get a finger or toe caught, and to be honest if they do they need to be more observant and careful. Personally I would like to do a bit more training in real clothes, as I think out of gi makes a difference. We train more from the SD side than the competiton side.
mike flanagan
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Aug 18 2006, 06:29 AM) *
I don't think it's that likely that anyone will get a finger or toe caught, and to be honest if they do they need to be more observant and careful.


It does happen, I've seen it done in sparring. Its not about being more careful, its about removing obvious and unnecessary risks from the training environment.

This doesn't happen very often granted, but when it does it only requires a small amount of force (a twist or pull of either person's limb) to dislocate the finger/toe. Although not quite the same thing but pertinent here - I once saw a very high ranking Aikidoka dislocate a toe by stepping on a very, very slight gap between two mats. So such accidents do happen, if they can be easily avoided they should be.

QUOTE
Personally I would like to do a bit more training in real clothes, as I think out of gi makes a difference. We train more from the SD side than the competiton side.


Amen to that. I think ultimatley its important to instill appropriate mindset (making the training as close to the reality as you can), never mind for the practical aspects of inflexible clothing, shoes, etc.

Mike
AngelaG
See we don't really do much sparring, so it's not a massive issue anyway. But people can also dislocate fingers by keeping open hands, doing lapel grabs etc. etc. I'd much prefer people have full use of their hands by not having sleeves flapping around then worrying about a small chance that someone may trap a finger. It also helps that when we are teaching sparring we insist that anyone under 18 AND under black must keep a fist. It'd be hard to trap a finger if they follow the rules (and they get disqualified if they don't). smile.gif
Tom
A friend of mine dislocated his thumb a while back, caught it in his Gi whilst doing a flip in Judo, He`s cut his Gi back to the elbows since then.
It a bad habit of mine whilst sparring to keep my hands open, and it`s something I`ll really have to change otherwise I`ll get `em kicked!
Sionnagh
I'm sure I have a book which has photos of people in Okinawa wearing what amounts to shorts and shirts - pretty sure they're wearing karategi but with extremely short arms and legs - because of the heat. Of course in some circles it was/is considered poor etiquette to have elbows and knees showing, but this as a general social thing and not specific to karate.

Every time something gets described as "etiquette" I have to wonder, when it's something which would be acceptable in polite company, whether that's just the cover story to avoid having to come up with a valid reason that people would accept. Why not just say "club policy" in this regard? e.g. "sleeves must be long enough to cover the elbows but not so long that they require turning up" It's not an unreasonable thing, surely?

Though we can (and frequently do) train in t-shirts or other casual clothing. It's not really a big deal. And as Mike says it helps people avoid the mindset that they need to be wearing special clothes.

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Mick
Dandino
Thanks for your thoughts folks.
All great advice. Same here with the whole open hands whilst sparring a bad habbit Im suffering from as we speak lol. Bad habbits are hard to break and only after a few more breaks I think my bad habbits will be removed from my mind set. lol.
As for the turn up issue better to be safe than sorry I guess.

Cheers smile.gif
Emma
Like AngelaG i've always upturn my gi sleeve's (espeically in the summer) and stitched my trousers inside too cose i have such short legs and arms, when i get a new Gi i will make sure i get one with short sleeves and short leg lengths too, or if not even ask to have if tailered made spefically

I didn't realized that turning them to the outside was wrong as that was i have done, now i feel embarresed as i have sinned terribly ohmy.gif sad.gif

coffeetime.gif
Tom
Sin is good for the soul smile.gif I always roll my Gi sleeves up too.
Emma
Which way Tom do you turn them, in or out?, sorry i just wondered which is best even if it having the sleeves out, might be the wrong way, i suppose it up to the indivdual tho, whats more comfy to that person, isn't that true? unsure.gif

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Tom
I`ve always rolled them outside - considered stitching them up, but never quite got round to it (like grading smile.gif )
But yeah, unless Instructor says otherwise, upto the individual.
Sempai Boy
i dont know if anyone else has mentioned this but if you show your elbows or knees it is a Okinawan sign of aggressiveness and haveing your belt buckle of centre is a challange to the sensei too

hope this helps
Emma
I spend alot of time on how my Gi and belt should look, after all i should look neat and tidy for my sensei to teach me and i like to be comfy when training. cool.gif

I always roll my sleeves outwards and ALWAYS under the elbow (ie forarm? the one above the wrist/ hand) and the legs are always tied permantly anyway, and when i put on my belt i sometimes stand in front of a mirror and i HAVE to put it on very straight and the cords are at the same length ie when i'm putting it on and when i'm wearing it, if not i then start over again huh.gif

But I have noticed that some people tie their belt i bit different to me, is it bad etiquette to tie belts wrongly or just different to others? or can it just be the way i feel best, ie i tie it of how i feel most comfy. unsure.gif

i have seen people tieing their belts (espeically the black belts when they get a new one they have to do it a certain way) but i can't undestand how they did it and from a shotokan karate website i have a diagram of how to tie your belt, but i just don't understand it blink.gif
pleb
I never knew that, Sempai boy... Good to know wink.gif

I'm the same, Emma... belt has to be just right. Tidy and clean ect



I hate to see folk sat on chairs. Its wrong in the dojo. But I'm just a meany mad.gif
AngelaG
QUOTE (Sempai Boy @ Aug 22 2006, 04:06 PM) *
i dont know if anyone else has mentioned this but if you show your elbows or knees it is a Okinawan sign of aggressiveness and haveing your belt buckle of centre is a challange to the sensei too

hope this helps

Sounds like another myth to me I'm afraid.
Matt
Agree. One benefit from tarting myself around so many schools/styles/dojo recently is seeing in person the plethora of contradictory 'etiquettes' out there, such as:
*Look them in the eye to show respect/don't look them in the eye to show trust
*sleeves down coz elbows are evil/sleeves up to show no concealed weapons
*Hai/Oss
*bow here, here, here and HERE

I have come to one conclusion - and that is that most often what you get told is 'etiquette' is bollocks and possibly brought in to make the school appear more 'authentic.'

The only thing that pretty much everything had in common was bowing before entering/leaving the training area and a bow in at the start and end of the class.
However, if it's expected of you in your school then who am I to say differently?

(wednesday is cranky day wink.gif )
pleb
Here in England my wednesday has just began. I already feel cranky mad.gif .... I pitty my work mates when I get out the wrong side of the bed blink.gif
Emma
Feeling cranky IMO is like that mid-week feeling when the thought of a nice weekend is soo far away espeically when it comes to bank holiday ones, those are are like painted in gold! lol.gif

i'm feely totally cranky, according to Garfield qoute's "i'd like mornings better if they started later" and "good morning is a condradiction in terms" and other times he panics and shouts "is it friday yet"! ohmy.gif

Still somehow i have to get rid of this crankyness as it a bit bad ettiquette to appear in the dojo like this? unsure.gif
Sionnagh
Elbows showing and belt knots being off-centre - are these things which are offensive or are they just the product of someone's imagination?

Can't have elbows showing, but no top at all is ok? Here Chotoku Kyan sits observing two of his students.
Click to view attachment


No pants? Just wear a loincloth! This photo shows Chojun Miyagi watching a class.
Click to view attachment


Here we see Chotoku Kyan with students posing for a photograph. Note the sleeves on the students in what is a formal photograph. Also have a look at the belt on the student sitting on the far right (Kyan's left). If this was poor etiquette then why would it appear in a photograph like this?
Click to view attachment


And here we see Gichin Funakoshi leading a class.
Click to view attachment

Perhaps some of these points of etiquette like those involving elbows and belts are a modern invention and the term "etiquette" is used because people don't like to argue with that?

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Mick

Photos taken from Classical Kata of Okinawan Karate by Patrick McCarthy (1987)
(pp. 19, 60, 61, 64)
Emma
Thanks, Mick amazing, excellent photos

But that is past ettiquette, ettiquette then is different now ie what we do in the present, it makes me wander though! what would the ettiquette might be like in the future?, would it be different to what it is today?

Karate and its knowledge has passed down by generations to generations etc so maybe according to Mick photos (not blaming anybody atall) someone somewhere, somehow may have missunderstood the ettiquette question?!
Wanderer
However, the statements made use Okinawan origins as their basis to validity. If people are using Okinawa as justification then it seems to me that etiquette now is etiquette made up.
mike flanagan
QUOTE (Sempai Boy @ Aug 23 2006, 12:06 AM) *
i dont know if anyone else has mentioned this but if you show your elbows or knees it is a Okinawan sign of aggressiveness and haveing your belt buckle of centre is a challange to the sensei too


I know Mick's already addressed this aduequately. Still, I'm curious to know where you picked this idea up Sempai Boy? I've never heard of it and I practice Karate in a group that has links to Okinawan teachers.

Mike
Sempai Boy
QUOTE
I know Mick's already addressed this aduequately. Still, I'm curious to know where you picked this idea up Sempai Boy? I've never heard of it and I practice Karate in a group that has links to Okinawan teachers.

Mike


There are many books on karate floating about but if you look in the correct one it says so, off the top of my head i cant remember which one it was, but it is true, however, that many of the traditons, mathods and techniques have been lost in trasition take vital point strikeing for example it is a relitively recent addition into the art but it was originaly in all Kata and was part of Kihon for generations.

although the belt off centre is not Okinawan tradition as they origionaly wore rags as belts hard to keep them central i suppose lol.gif

cheers,

Rob
mike flanagan
QUOTE (Sempai Boy @ Aug 30 2006, 01:25 AM) *
There are many books on karate floating about but if you look in the correct one it says so, off the top of my head i cant remember which one it was,


I think you'll find your mistaken to be honest. I mean, you might find it in a book (although not one I can ever remember reading) but its clear from the photos that Mick provided that showing the elbows is definitely not bad etiquette in the Okinawan traditions. I also have video footage of senior Okinawan teachers in which I can clearly see their elbows.

QUOTE
but it is true, however, that many of the traditons, mathods and techniques have been lost in trasition take vital point strikeing for example it is a relitively recent addition into the art but it was originaly in all Kata and was part of Kihon for generations.


Vital point striking has always been a part of the Okinawan tradition. But you're right, it has been lost to most of the Japanese and western systems of Karate. If you'd like to see how vital points are used in our system of Okinawan derived Karate then you're very welcome to along and watch or take part in a session in our Headingley dojo - see my website address below for details.

QUOTE
although the belt off centre is not Okinawan tradition as they origionaly wore rags as belts hard to keep them central i suppose lol.gif


Again, I've got to correct you on this. Okinawans didn't train in rags historically. They often trained in loincloths, their equivalent of underpants. As shizoku (descendants of the nobility) karateka certainly didn't go round in rags.

Not trying to put you down sempai boy, but it does get my goat when such tall stories are passed off as fact to eager students as yourself, who then unwittingly pass on the disinformation themselves.

Mike
deano
Then I wonder what your take on this is:

From August GKR newsletter...

QUOTE
The Tradition of Rei
by Stacey Scully

On entering a dojo for your first class, you may well have observed some behaviour that is unusual in western civilization, the first being the bow. This can seem a little strange to the newcomer. However, after training in karate for a while, we realize that it is more than just an odd action. It in fact has elements to perfect, just as does any technique we learn in class. And as we progress on our own karate journey, we also begin to realise the importance of the meaning of the bow.

‘Rei’ is the ceremonial bow in, which courtesy and good manners are demonstrated. It is the display of humility, respect and sincerity, particularly when addressing another person. Without sincerity, the bow is meaningless, therefore you must put your heart and soul into the bow.

“The very act of taking time to recognise another, and showing that you recognise them and appreciate their being, is an act in humility all in itself” (Terry Bryan). In order to earn respect for yourself, you must first show respect to others. You must first give, in order to receive.

The traditional standing ‘rei’ is not only given to other people in your class, but also addressed to the training area, known as the dojo. Again this seems particularly odd to the newcomer – bowing to a room! To understand this idea, let’s take a quick journey back to the origins of karate.

During the early part of the 14th century, Okinawa was an island ruled by feudal lords all vying to gain supremacy over the others. In 1477 however, the country was unified under the king Sho Shin, who put a stop to feudalism and banned the wearing of swords. He also made illegal the private ownership of large quantities of weapons. This put an end to the fighting and allowed 200 years of peace. Meanwhile in Japan, which was ruled by military governors, soldiers were trained to become ferocious and fearless in battle. These men were often referred to as Shimazu Samurai. In 1609, the Shimazu invaded the Ryukan Islands, including Okinawa, and imposed their government on the local people. They also kept the weapons ban in place in Okinawa. It is believed that karate was invented in this time, as a means of unarmed self-defence, building on some pre-existing weaponless combat techniques practiced before the invasion. (From an original article by Mark Bishop.)

The Okinawan people were a very religious race, and at their places of practice (dojo), they often had a small shrine where they would pray. After a run-in with the local Samurai, they would return to their dojo and give thanks for their life, before continuing with their training. The dojo became not only a place for physical development, but also a place of worship, and a refuge in times of need.

For these reasons, we in more modern times, pay our respects to the dojo as we enter and leave, in deference to the practices and beliefs of the founding fathers. And while it is by no means a shrine for us, it can often be a place of refuge for us to forget about out daily problems.

Humility, respect, and sincerity. The foundations of character embodied in karate-ka through the ages.
JCCool
huh.gif
mike flanagan
QUOTE (deano @ Aug 30 2006, 10:05 AM) *
Then I wonder what your take on this is:


In spirit I see nothing wrong with the article. However, the historical facts are somewhat simplified if not downright dubious.

QUOTE
The Okinawan people were a very religious race, and at their places of practice (dojo), they often had a small shrine where they would pray. After a run-in with the local Samurai, they would return to their dojo and give thanks for their life, before continuing with their training. The dojo became not only a place for physical development, but also a place of worship, and a refuge in times of need.


At the time when there were Samurai wandering around Okinawa there were no Karate dojo. Karate was illegal therefore did not have rooms set aside specifically for its practice (except possibly in the royal palace?). Karate was generally practiced and taught in the teacher's back yard.

QUOTE
For these reasons, we in more modern times, pay our respects to the dojo as we enter and leave, in deference to the practices and beliefs of the founding fathers. And while it is by no means a shrine for us, it can often be a place of refuge for us to forget about out daily problems.


Nothing wrong with that statement IMO but it tells us more about how Karate is practiced nowadays rather than how it was practiced in the past.

At the end of the day different Okinawan teachers use different degrees of ritual, formality and etiquette. Some have copied the rituals of Japanese Karate, which actually teach us more about Japanese culture than they do about the history of Okinawan Karate. Others have an extremely informal approach and would laugh at most of the ritual carried out in many modern dojo - certainly the endless bowing and 'oss-ing' that goes in many modern dojo is absent in the schools of these teachers.

Its the same old story - many of the rituals in Karate are grafted on from late 19th & early 20th century Japanese culture & Japanese militarism. Ironically much of the ritual lifted from the Japanese military were actually inspired by European military traditions. So perhaps in the dojo we should start a lesson by all bowing to a picture of the Duke of Wellington?

Mike
Tom
Hi JC,
Do you have any theories on this?
Tom
I`d agree with Mike here. Nowhere have I read (apart from this article) about there being Karate dojo in Okinawa.
But going back to the whole issues of etiquette, maybe in some schools, it is to stop the inquisitive student from asking the wrong sort of question!
*takes cynical hat off*
JCCool
QUOTE (WombatOneSix @ Aug 30 2006, 06:13 PM) *
Hi JC,
Do you have any theories on this?


Etiquette. It is one thing to consider etiquette an unspoken rule, it is another thing to curb or enforce taboos.

In some parts of Australia it is bad etiquette to give somebody a pint of beer as the heat will make it warm in a matter of minutes. In some parts of Germany, it is good etiquette to knock the first inch or so off your beer when first drinking from your stein. In some parts Belgium, it is not good etiquette to serve a beer without first smoothing the overflow of the head of beer and dipping the glass in water before serving it to the client.

This is etiquette. These are norms. These are things that are done in a specific environment according to the conditions of the society and the country and its history.

I find it strange that we seek to preserve customs of a given point in history in Okinawa when the open practice of "karatedo" was difficult and was forced into somewhat of a retreat. This is not etiquette.

I find it strange that today we pick and chose which etiquette we seek to follow, and why we so eagerly jump between Japanese (modern), Okinawan and Chinese etiquette according to how we see fit. Removing shoes before entering a building, cleaning a floor before and after training, training outdoors, etc. What makes the selection of which etiquette to follow correct?

It is the invidual and the organisation. Today, it is the expectation of those above which dictates the behaviours of those below. This is not things that are done in a specific environment according to the conditions of the society and the country and its history. Or is it?

Maybe we are confusing perceived ritual, ceremony and informal procedure as a modern interpretation of "karatedo" etiquette. Afterall, etiquette negates the need for stated rules, laws and authoritarianism - things that do not serve the commercial market well.

JC
AngelaG
When we ask the students to do something because of etiquette I never personally nod to Japanese or Okinawan etiquette, rather that we do it this way because it is considered good etiquette in THIS dojo. Usually there is a good reason behind the etiquette (rather than the ego trip of people following mindless rules and their enforcement), the students should hopefully all know why they do what we ask them to do.
pleb
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Aug 31 2006, 08:04 PM) *
When we ask the students to do something because of etiquette I never personally nod to Japanese or Okinawan etiquette, rather that we do it this way because it is considered good etiquette in THIS dojo. Usually there is a good reason behind the etiquette (rather than the ego trip of people following mindless rules and their enforcement), the students should hopefully all know why they do what we ask them to do.

A good level headed straight forward post. Thanks
Julia
QUOTE (Emma @ Aug 23 2006, 02:20 AM) *
But I have noticed that some people tie their belt i bit different to me, is it bad etiquette to tie belts wrongly or just different to others? or can it just be the way i feel best, ie i tie it of how i feel most comfy. unsure.gif

i have seen people tieing their belts (espeically the black belts when they get a new one they have to do it a certain way) but i can't undestand how they did it and from a shotokan karate website i have a diagram of how to tie your belt, but i just don't understand it blink.gif


I'm a 5 week old white belt lol.gif and I still have trouble tying my belt. Mine isn't long enough to do it the way where it doesn't cross over at the back (you wrap it around twice or something?).

Can anyone direct me to a site where there is a good explanation of how to tie a belt. PLEASE

And, about rolling up gi sleeves/pants - the Shihan at my dojo rolls his up!

Another related question: what do the different coloured uniforms mean? I've seen my Shihan in a black gi. And the Kyoshi on the Basics DVD that my school has made is wearing a blue gi.
Susan
Hi Julia...

You will need to ask your instructors why different people in your club wear different coloured uniforms. All the clubs I've ever trained in have only white uniforms. It seems the different coloured uniforms is an individual thing for your club.

Matb runs a go kan ryu website with a pictorial webpage instructing on tieing a belt. Ihope this helps.

you will find the website here



note: you are not expected to read the "history" prior to the pictures...
Julia
Thanks Susan. Yes I will ask the Shihan about the coloured uniforms. None of the students wear them, just him and the Kyoshi.

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I really didn't understand that belt tying method. Besides, my belt was isn't long enough to wrap around twice and too long to go around just once.

I'm thinking of organising a personal lesson with the Shihan sometime this week - to get some help with my second kata (adult white belts need to know the first 2 kata's - I know most of it just unsure of the last 4-5 moves) and also the first (self defence technique) combination to grade to yellow. Grading is on Fri 8th Sep and I'm both nervous and excited!!!
Emma
This is a website, that i have found more about etiquette...

http://www.kikusuikai.freeserve.co.uk/etiquette.htm

and the other is another way to tie belts (the belt tieing process looks different to matb's website) unsure.gif

http://www.kikusuikai.freeserve.co.uk/belt_tieing.htm
Nooms
Profundity for the week*: it is good etiquette to bow at the door of the dojo before entering, and now we know why. It seems it has nothing to do with respect - it's all about seeing who is already at training before you go in!


*not serious in the slightest tongue.gif
Sionnagh
Clearly there is more than one way suggested to tie a belt. In the end does it really matter? You would think that some instructors suffer from an OCD the way they react to tieing a belt! lol.gif (No offence intended to obsessive-compulsive disorder sufferers).

Of course I understand the desire people have to fit in and not want to be doing something the wrong way but I'd suggest there are more important elements to training than how to tie a belt. For one thing you need to make sure it's not inside-out when you put it on. wink.gif

coffeepaper.gif
Mick
Emma
i always put on my belt on outside in ie the right way round (opposite of inside out) lol.gif

If it has stripe/s on, then it has to be the stripe/s facing outwards
Sionnagh
Good point. It'd be a waste of a stripe if it was on the inside and so then you might as well be wearing a plain belt. wink.gif

I wonder whether some people might do theirs the opposite way because they're left-handed though?

coffeepaper.gif
Mick
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