Having now browsed through the local martial arts shop I see a lot of videos,magazines on shotokan karate and being a novice wondered what the differance was between what we are taught at GKR ,and if there is a differance what is it? and has GKR got it's advantages or is it down to style? excuse my ignorance but I never seem to have the time to discuss, (maybe we need a winter bbq with the students hint hint (Sensei Matt & Susan). Dave

As I have heard it Kancho trained in shotokan and goju early on then combined the two when he started GKR.

IMO this can cause some confusion to students who have studied one or the other because compromises have to be made for the differences in styles.

Has GKR got it's advantages? I guess if you're here then it must have.

A side note, there is someone I know who objects to the term "style" because it straightaway divides people into factions, and like any other sport or similar when associations are formed politics soon enters the arena. Then you have people arguing the benefits of their styles vs everyone else's style, and why their's is better etc etc.


Mick

Wow. The benefit of another 3 years of training including exposure to modern Shotokan...

GKR's Shotokan component is definitely watered down, or at least vastly inferior to a good quality modern Shotokan club.

We have a good relationship with a local Shotokan club and are able to train there regularly. While their techniques differ from ours to greater or lesser degrees there is no denying the strength of their technique and the power in their kata. They also have significant depth in their use of applications and their repertoir of practical self-defence techniques. Comparing any two versions of Shotokan kata between them the GKR version always come out looking like the poor cousin, lacking in focus, balance and intent. IMO probably it's the calibre of teacher though and not a deficiency in the style. Or not. I can't really say for sure.


Mick

I`m curious.....
This probably belongs in a different thread but when the Shotokan (and Goju )kata were adopted by GKR ( and other schools aswell ) were the Kata adapted to suit the basic moves taught by these schools, or did these varients already exist?

Did not Shito-ryu come about as a direct result of Nahate and Shurite (and others) approx 80 years ago. (LOL). So in the major 4 styles (Shito, Wado, Goju and Shoto) where does this group belong (if in any). Just a thought

In GKR's case I'm confident in assuming that the GKR variants were developed within GKR, not prior to that. That would seem to be apply to the Shotokan kata at least, so I guess the same goes for the Goju kata. There are aspects of the GKR kata that I think would make most Shotokan people wince.

As for the kata common to, say, Shotokan, Wado and Shito it would be more accurate to say that these sping from a common source - rather than that they all come from the Shotokan version.

It should also be borne in mind that there were a multitude of different versions of kata in Okinawa before the development of the modern ryu-ha. So there's nothing categorically to say that two modern version of, say, Bassai Dai, are based on the same pre-existing Okinawan version. They might be based on different Okinawan versions that are several iterations apart.

Mike

If by "basic moves" you mean kihon or basics I'd have said that normally the basics are practiced the way they're done in kata, otherwise what's the point? Why practice stand-alone kihon one way and then do them differently when performing kata?

Looking at e.g. Shito-Ryu Pinan and Shotokan Heian kata you can immediately see they're essentially the same kata. But generally the Shotokan use bigger movements all around. And other differences can be accounted for changes made by different people along the way.

In my (limited) experience there is only small difference between Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu versions of the same kata. But we also know that teachers modified kata over time and a kata learnt from the same teacher by two different people at different times can be different.

Doing Meikyo (Shotokan kata) at the WA AFTK seminar you could see the similarity to Rohai (ShitoRyu) although perhaps to casual observers the similarities aren't apparent.


Mick

Are these two kata studied in any other style other than these?

Wombat

Shito-ryu Man was correct in what he said about bringing together kata from Naha-te and Shuri-te...

What you might be experiencing in the kata you see in the organisation in question is the (now reduced) number and version of them that the founder could remember from previous training.

As expected, as the understanding increases, the kata may appear to undergo "corrections" or may appear to "evolve" over time. However, this is more likely a result of remembering (or more likely, them being taught) the kata in question.

JCCool

Umm.... wtf does that mean?

I suppose you could form a relationship or align with another group and adopt their version of a kata for one reason or another. Or find that what you were taught had drifted from what your instructor was taught and relearn it without the changes. Maybe even, if you're not aiming to preserve a particular lineage, you'd adopt a different version so that you're not practicing one version for training and grading and a different version for competition but just using the same version for all. But then you'd just tell students that you're doing that for whatever reason, wouldn't you?


Mick