I've started again, this time with Shotokan. The chief instructor is 6th Dan, and although the group (at least on Tuesday!) was fairly small the majority were Dan grades - I know that several of the Welsh National Team train there. If I can't see good quality karate here, then I may have a long way to travel to find it!

I didn't ask if there was a stp.....

I was welcome to train at my GKR grade, I would be allowed to grade after 6 months by an external 8th Dan Sensei and he would determine my grade. However, I asked to train as a white belt and be considered as such.... they were happy to oblige .

The first class was two days ago and I am still sore! - The consequence of not training in over 12 months . It is far too early to be able to determine what the regular format will be - even if there is any regular format! The class was composed of mainly Dan grades (there were only 4 coloured grades there!) - I know several members of the Welsh National Team train here; I take this as a good sign, but it may mean that lower grades become overlooked?

After the bow in, warm up and stretching the group was split - the four of us and the rest - I've no idea what the rest did; I was too busy keeping up to notice! The lesson was basics, in many ways similar to GKR with the exception that basics are done in stance marching up and down the hall..... yes, I did read the other posts on 70's style Shotokan and did wonder... again, time will tell.

The effect upon my poor thighs has been with me ever since Various combinations of punches, blocks and kicks with plenty of individual instruction - well, there were only four of us!

We finished up with kata - OK, to give you an idea the four of us composed of myself and another white belt, an orange belt and I think a green belt. Now, I have no idea what kyu these grades were - I think the orange was the first grade after white?

So, we formed four corners of a square to do kata step by step (by the numbers in GKR speak) - but we did our grade kata at the same time - with demonstration of each step by the Sensei. ( I should point out at this time that the Sensei was not the Chief Sensei - I have no idea of his grade, I saw no reason to ask!). At no point did the Sensei loose track of any of the kata - I thought that was neat.

The kata I performed (Khion sp?)was identical to Taigyoku Shodan. What I assume was the second kata (I missed its name) followed the mainly same "I" shaped pattern but involved different blocks and strikes... the next kata I saw bore no comparison to any individual kata I have ever seen, bits of it looked familiar but that is as far as it went.

I enjoyed myself - this group are not financially motivated; I had to remind them to take the money (all £3 of it!). Lets see how things progress

David

That sounds a really good Class, David. And £3 is excellent value when you consider the grade of the Instructor.
And if you`ll be training alongside the Welsh national team - even better!

I am hoping it will be a good base to start again from. At the very least they are more concerned with karate than making money - the subscriptions pay the cost of the hall and if there is any left over this goes towards the costs of attending tournaments. I'm more than happy with that

...I shall have to save up my pennies for when they eventually ask for a club membership fee....the vast sum of £5 might bankrupt me ...not

David

Sounds similar to the club we attend on the odd occassion. Basics done on the move seems to feel more appropriate somewhat. I got the feeling it was close enough to gkr that one would feel quite comfortable with the techniques and kata.

I'd hazard a guess that the kata you did was Heian Shodan.

Hmm, could be Heian Shodan - I'll ask tonight and find out Correct me if I am wrong (of that I have no doubt ), I thought Heian Shodan included a combination of strikes and blocks rather than the same block and punch repeated throughout the pattern??

David

i think matt meant the second kata you did as being heian shodan...

Yes, I think he probably did... makes much more sense The first kata wouldn't have been called Khion though would it? From what little I have gathered, Khion is more a term of application???

....sticking my head up to get flattened!

David

If my memory is corect i do believe it could be called "Kihon no kata"

correct me if im wrong anyone....

I remember hearing "Khion" - but I could well have missed anything else I was expected to announce the kata before running through it.... I certainly said "Khion" - didn't get too many funny looks

...they probably just put it down to me being the new guy

David

In Shotokan you usually start with Kihon Kata aka Taikyoku Shodan - yes, that's where GKR's Taikyoku Shodan comes from.

Next is Heian Shodan (aka Pinan Nidan - just to be confusing). I daresay some groups miss out Kihon Kata and go straight to the Heians.

Then Heian Nidan (aka Pinan Shodan) followed by the other 3 Heians, Tekki Shodan then Bassai Dai - as a general rule.

Mike

I think it is a conspiracy just to confuse me So why are the Pinan kata out of order with the Heian kata (or vice versa)

David

If I remember rightly the names were changed from pinan to heian, or rather the pronunciation was changed because in Okinawan dialect the characters used are pronounced pinan or pin'an but in Japan (Tokyo) the same characters are pronounced heian or hei'an.

Somewhere along the way when they started calling them heian instead of pinan they also decided that pinan nidan was easier than pinan shodan and decided to put it first and so pinan nidan became heian shodan, and pinan shodan became heian nidan.

I could go look it up to confirm but then where's the fun in that?


Mick

OK, I can live with that - I guess I'll have to So, who is right... those following Pinan kata or those following Heian kata? Does anyone still make the distinction....

... .... I feel Boz lurking around!

David

Who is right depends on who you ask. Heian are almost exclusively used by Shotokan clubs. Except there are clubs who do them exactly the same but call them Pinan. And then there are clubs who do them slightly (or a lot) differently and call them Pinan.


Mick

oops - I think matt misread davids "involved different blocks and strikes" as being different throughout the kata... must think more

Great isnt it - not only are the same kata performed differently depending on the school, but also have different names too...
Karate... keepin' you guessing

Well, the Pinan's came first, that's for certain. As for which way round you do them, I've heard various supposed rationale. The ones which make the most sense to me, although I can prove nothing, are:

1. Originally Pinan Shodan was first, because it addresses blows to the head which can be thought of as really important to deal with asap in a self-defence course.
2. Later Pinan Nidan became the first one because its easier to perform than Shodan.

Either way, this reversal led to the names of Shodan & Nidan being reversed in Shotokan at (presumably) the same time the name changed from Pinan to Heian.

Mike

So Heian Shodan is easier than Heian Nidan.... It'll take me a while to think about tackling Heian Nidan then - better avoid any blows to the head . Probably a good strategy regardless of kata

I have seen a few movie clips of Heian Shodan and found it very hard to follow, although in principle the stages looked OK. After my terrible performance at training last night I have found out why!

Now Sensei didn't ask for anything special or even difficult ; as a white belt we were going through basics. Great , nothing too taxing so far. Sensei could see a difference between myself and the other white belts (I'm a good deal uglier for one ). We were advancing forward in Zenkutsu dachi performing Chudan tsuki. This was clearly too easy for me so Sensei added a simple Jodan age uke performed of the arm that had just struck.... and so began my downfall!

For the life of me I could not get this to make any sense in my tired brain! I struggled through the class as best I could and enjoyed every confusing minute of it

However, this simple combination bothered me all the way home, so I tried to reproduce it once at home without other distraction. - And all became clear!

My problem was GKR method learning which had become second nature - making slight changes very confusing. The Jodan age uke I was performing last night has an additonal move... having just punched with say the right fist (right leg forward), halfway through the following block, and mid stride, the left hand comes from the chambered position in front of the head (confusing cover???) thus allowing the right arm to chamber. The stride completes and the right arm performs Jodan aga uke, left arm chambering again ready for the chudan tsuki.

This intermediate covering provided by the chambering arm caused me no end of confusion. Every time I would raise this arm it felt like I was performing the jodan age uke, getting me all confused and confusiticated .

This very same movement I have seen in the mpegs of Heian Shodan; now perhaps I can come to terms with this movement and progress!


....out of interest, this intermediate movement.... what function does it serve? Clearly without it my head would be a lovely target whilst I was moving forward, so is it insurance which could become a block if needed, or is it just to distract an opponent, or to attempt to grab an incoming strike....???

David.

So when the right hand is blocking you've actually just stepped forward so that your left leg is in front? the your left hand punches without any change in stance?



I'm confused now, that doesn't match with how I read your description above. Nothing like that (assuming I'm reading it correctly) occurs in Heian Shodan.



It sounds like you're homing in on the emphasis placed by Shotkan on the 'preparation' movement that the reaction hand does immediately prior to the other hand blocking/punching or whatever. This should occur in your basics already (and I'm sure it does), just not as overtly and not coming from the hip. Normally you'd do it with the hand that was already extended so it would simply pass through the cover position on its way to the hip, but this time you've brought it out from the hip and back again.

Does that make sense, or have I just got hold of completely the wrong end of the stick?

As to its purpose, I would generally regard this cover as the block itself, with the movement you think of as the 'block' being used to control or attack the opponent. Try thinking of all the basic blocks involving two stages: 1. intercept with one hand then 2. pass to the other hand to control the limb.

Mike

Hi Mike,



...Yes - unless I have it wrong!!


Regarding the mpeg... have a ganders at the link below (hope it is OK to post links Matt??). After the initial attacks to the left and right; just before the jodan age uke to the front there is the aforementioned movement....

http://www.chinte.net/kata.htm

...Oh, no idea who this club are - they just were nice enough to publish mpegs of kata!

Any confusion is more than likely down to my poor explanation!

David

Ah, I think I must have been reading too much in to your description. The movement in the video is not untypical of the usual Shotokan 'preparation' before a block. In this case it seems to have been modified so that this movement itself is essentially an age-uke. Other Shotokan versions of the Heians I've seen have this preparation movement extending forwards and up, rather than back and up.

Either way try right-clicking here

www.headingleykarate.org/images/ageuke_app1.mpg

for a possible application.

Mike

Hi All,

The karate program in Okinawan Schools was a complete change to the Te from which it evolved. TheTaikyoku kata were devised and introduced a long time after the Pinan kata. Pinan Shodan was the first kata taught and was established before Pinan Nidan was devised by Itosu.

The most plausible theory is that Itosu and his assistants, Hanashiro and Yabu, found that Pinan Shodan was difficult for students first up so they created an easier kata to teach and more appropriate for the new art. My mentor told me that Pinan Nidan was created for use between karateka. He used it to teach kumite and showed me how.

The earlier version of Pinan Nidan began with gedan barai and chudan oi zuki to the left and then mirrored on the right. The rest is the same until the last 4 blocks which were gedan shuto uke in uki ashi dachi (floating foot stance) which has since evolved into neko ashi dachi. I have published this version in the Shoto Journal.

Mike has shown an application that he or someone else has reverse-engineered and the catch cry of 'if it works, use it' seems fair enough on the surface. However I can never imagine anyone using many of those applications because they are not natural IMO. We had to recreate as best as we could when no other answers were available.

My mentor showed me what was passed on to him through direct transmission down Itosu's lineage. My earlier efforts at reverse-engineering proved to be based on incorrect assumptions promoted earlier from the pioneers of the bunkai frenzy of the 90's. Things such as there are no blocks, all blocks are strikes, and kata is karate.

Funakoshi I imagine took the opportunity to reverse the order of the Pinan Kata when he introduced karate into Japan proper. The later introduction of the Taikyoku series allowed Funakoshi to develop an interpretation that suited his own teaching method and enhance his progression of kata.

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Boz

Good to hear from you.



Interesting, not heard that before. Do you have a reference or source for that?



Reverse-engineered by me I have to admit, and I'm totally happy that it works when used in the appropriate context. I'd modify the catch cry to 'if it works and it adheres to the core principles, use it'. But I'm the first to admit that's not actually very catchy. I never was much good at coming up with catchphrases.

Mike

Thanks, good to catch up




Itosu taught Anbun Tokuda--> Kinjo Hiroshi--> Kazuya Mitani--> told me.



There was no disrespect intended in my comment. What is an appropriate context for this application of yours? What do you consider the principles involved from this kata? Don't take this as anything other than me trying to work out how these applications are justified.


Cheers,
Boz

Cheers.



None taken. I understand that we all went a bit wild experimenting with crazy ideas in the 90's. I try to stick with what I'm confident I can make work under pressure.



I would prefer to have struck the aggressor as they were punching. This application assumes I had insufficient warning to do so, or chose to take a softer approach. Of course, you don't have to try to push the person right over - it may be more appropriate simply to unbalance and turn them so that you can continue to attack them from behind.

It also assumes a particular amount of momentum on their part. Whilst checking their punch the first block rides their incoming momentum to a degree. If I stopped it dead there would be little point in then trying to get them going again, better to simply transition into something else. The attacker needs to be committed to the attack, so that they have the amount of momentum necessary.

And finally I wouldn't do this on anyone much shorter than me, its just not the right tool for the job then.



Well I could list lots of principles but most can be found in many other kata too. For me the primary lesson of this kata is learning how to generate power by simultaneous pushing and pulling. 3 chief examples are given:

- pushing and pulling horizontally (punching)
- pushing down and pulling up (downward sweep)
- pushing up and pulling down (rising block)

This is a straightforward but important method of generating power, which is why I personally buy into the idea of teaching this kata first.

There is also the principle of generating power by rotating the arm about the shoulder, as in the hammerfists. And the 2 uke's of course exemplify the idea of checking an attack with one arm then passing it to the other.

Mike

Hi Mike,



Yes, I figured this was the case - just something I will get used to with practice. Nice to know of a possible application as well

If we were starting with left leg forward in zenkutsu dachi with left arm gedan barai with the intention of stepping forward in stance and then left arm jodan age uke....

...in GKR the left arm would have travelled straight to the right shoulder then up and out for jodan age uke - the right arm would have remained chambered all the time.

With the Shotokan club on Tuesday, adding the intermediate head level movement with the right arm allowed the left arm to chamber before executing the block...

....is this purely to maintain good basics during movement - which could potentially have other applications in later study?



This was being explained to me on Tuesday with the chudan oi tzuki, has me a little confused, but I am guessing the pulling would be a variation on the same technique? ie if I were to punch someone I would be pushing, but if I were to want to grab someone I would be pulling (but not at the same time)??

Hi Boz,

..loads to think on - As I have yet to study pinan nidan (or even heian shodan!) with this club, so I can't contribute much.... yet

David

Typically I believe in Shotokan the arm that's out in front of you extends even further out if it can, supposedly in order to increase the power generation effect of pulling back to the hip while the other hand is going out. This bringing it back above the head in a block seems to be a various on that theme, presumably to give it a little more relevance to self-defence?



You can certainly use the extension of the arm as a push or punch. And you can certainly pull someone with the hand going back to the hip. You can use them separately. But why not use them together? Why not pull someone into your punch? This seems to me to be the origin of the idea of the retracting hand generating more power - when you're holding the opponent with it, it definitely produces more power.

Mike

Using them together? Seperate arms, yes? Surely there would be no power if you tried to grab someone with say the left, pull them towards you then punch them with the left again? - unless they are going to hang around while you re-set yourself!

David.

Click to view attachment

Yes, separate arms. See attached picture. If my wrist alignment looks a bit funny on the punch its because I'm actually striking with a single knuckle fist rather than the normal seiken.

Mike

Hi Mike,

You sound like a hardcore Shotokan buff here This fascination for power generation is way overdone in my view. I think you are espousing the principles of shotokan karate rather than anything that pertains to this partiular kata. This is the popular view shared by many inmodern karate. Can I provide another perspective which you may consider and be free to discard.

This kata did not contain the hammer fist technique originally. The upward blocks and the three punches were performed continuously as was the downward block and chudan oi zuki. The kata was used as a tool to teach how to harness one's momentum and in application provided an opportunity to practise karate vs karate whereas the older kata were more intended to be Te vs an opponent unaware of the techniques being used against s/he.

cheers,
Boz

You really know how to cut a guy to the core don't you:)

I should have clarified - even if you're just teasing me I know I should have made it clearer to David - pushing and pulling simultaneously is only of relevance if both hands/arms are in contact with the opponent. Doing hikite without holding onto anything really does very little to augment the action of the striking/blocking arm IMO.



Well I was about to ask...



Interesting idea, but I'm not yet sure I'm convinced by it. I understand that you've got a good reason to believe this is the case. But I've heard conflicting stories about the source of these kata and there are quite a number of versions on Okinawa that have at least one of the hammerfists. I find it difficult to commit wholeheartedly to any hypothesis. Either way, I'm not going to get too hung up on that and will happily consider your view on the subject. As an aside, at what point do you think the hammerfists got added.



Well I certainly can't argue against the last bit (highlighted). And, if I understand your meaning correctly, I think I can see value in using it to practice harnessing momentum. Its certainly not a big jump to see how students of the new karate-do could have used it to get them used to their formal sparring drills. But ultimately is it not still composed of essentially the same movements as found in the older kata, just rearranged? And therefore cannot it be used to teach some of the same lessons as the older kata (even if that wasn't the originator's intent)?

I'd be interested to hear your view on where Pinan Shodan (and the other Pinan's even) fit into the picture.

Cheers,

Mike

Hiya Mike,



Its a gift


Seeing as you don't get bent out of shape easily, I also think this hikite bit is overdone. I find it better to teach positioning the person for a strike rather than pulling them into one. In any altercations I've had I've preferred to land blows with both hands first anyway but I don't have your experience as a bouncer. I've usually been on the other team in my early days No, not that team



I have a book "Karate-Do" (1951), written by Hisateru Miyagi, a colleague of Funakoshi, and one of the last students of Itosu (?) where the photos show Pinan Nidan without the hammerfist.

Kinjo was taught hammerfists on both sides and confirmed this with Anbun Tokuda who checked his notes from seminars he attended at Teachers College with Itosu. So as to whether or not the kata evolved before or after it was introduced I don't know.

What I consider important is that each Pinan Kata is mirrored on the left and right sides, at the start except for Pinan Nidan.. why would that be? We have a very good reason for the move on both sides. BTW I published photos of that kata from the book in the Shoto journal so the evidence of 'something' is there!

But I've heard conflicting stories about the source of these kata and there are quite a number of versions on Okinawa that have at least one of the hammerfists. I find it difficult to commit wholeheartedly to any hypothesis. Either way, I'm not going to get too hung up on that and will happily consider your view on the subject. As an aside, at what point do you think the hammerfists got added.



No, no, no.. freesparring drills plus close quarter combat. Definitely not the 1-3-5 step formal exercises done in Shotokan today. Have you heard of kata synthesis?

But ultimately is it not still composed of essentially the same movements as found in the older kata, just rearranged? And therefore cannot it be used to teach some of the same lessons as the older kata (even if that wasn't the originator's intent)?





I teach Pinan Nidan for kumite, Pinan Shoday for training and Pinan godan as an introduction to kata competition. Mitani doesn't teach Pinan shodan but I found it useful for training chudan shuto uke and self defense.
The difference for me was that I did stacks of digging around and secondary research. Trained with the top seminar presenters and then met Mitani who opened my eyes because he was in a lineage of direct transmission.

Cheers,
Boz

Allright guys, novice here



and



Right, educate David time... . Boz, karate vs karate... in a kata?? You're on your own in kata, so you are clearly not talking about sparring... are you meaning techniques intended to counter other karate techniques - ie not some random punter lobbing a bottle at you . So the older kata you mention (Pinan shodan???) was intended to practice techniques more against the random pub brawler??

OK, so now about 'Te'.... 'karate do' as I understood it was 'way of the open hand'... what bit does the 'Te' relate to - if it does at all?

So with Mike's comment (second quote) and relating that to Boz's (first quote) lends me to think there is a fundamental point here I am missing. The older 'Te' and the newer 'karate do'

Ever the confused!

David.

You mean using the hikite hand to control and position the person? If so, then I'm happy with that. I don't believe that the hikite hand has to always pull all the way back to the hip. It may hold and pull just a bit, it may just hold, it may even push (as in the preparation when stepping forwards to strike with the lead hand).



As above, I have no issue with that. But once those first blows have landed, if they haven't been sufficient to do the job, that's when I really want to get hands on.





That's certainly interesting.



But I've also seen plenty of examples of the hammerfist in various Shorin systems. But of course, one can speculate all day on what point in time and from what source this kata arrived in these different systems. Nonetheless I'll file that bit of info away to be brought out and dusted off at some point in the future if and when I come across further information on the subject.



I'm not sure I have. Can you clarify? Can you explain more about the "freesparring drills plus close quarter combat"? Pictures or video would be really helpful (this is the 21st century you know). If you prefer to take the discussion offline that's fine.



OK, so in Godan its the performance your focussing on, not my cup of tea but no problem. 'Pinan Shodan for training' - can you explain more?

Presumably you don't bother with sandan or yondan then? Any thoughts on the purpose of Sandan to Godan in the Mitani lineage?



Understood, I've done what I can where I am, but I do envy you your closeness to some of these sources.

Mike

Hi David

I can see Boz and I are bending your head a bit.



The older kata (ie. the older versions of Naihanchi, Passai, Kusanku and so on) were intended to address the needs of self-defence, most likely against people who didn't do martial arts. So they weren't likely to attack with an oi-zuki, but they might attack with a haymaker.

The Pinans are not old kata, they date from roughly around the end of the 19th century according to most accounts.



Boz and I don't agree on everything, that much is obvious, but I think we agree on the following. The Karate of the 19th century (at least the earlier part anyway) was very different from the Karate that most people practice today. For a start it wasn't even called Karate, usually just te ('hands') or to-te ('chinese hands'). Some will also make a distinction between 'ti' (the 'palance hand' of the royal family and their mates) and 'te' (the harder art that everyone else did. How much truth there is to such a distinction is open to debate. Either way, the 'te' (using the term generically) of the 19th century was focussed very much on pragmatic self-defence. There was no sporting aspect to training. Te was for 'life and death' situations. The kicks were lower and the stances shorter than Karate as you know it. Some believe there was a significant grappling element, although others are not so convinced. One thing is certain, much (possibly most) of what you consider part of karate training was actually not a part of te, it was actually put together in Japan between the 1920's and 1950's, and bears only a loose resemblance to the old Okinawan te.

There are lots of books you can read about what people's interpretations of what the old te was like, some more fanciful than others. If you want to learn more about the history of the Okinawan arts probably the best book to start with is Mark Bishop's 'Okinawan Karate'. Its not 100% accurate in all instances but its an excellent place to start.

Mike

Hi Mike / Boz



Please don't take your discussion offline, I for one am learning lots - and I suspect the other 241 readers are also benefiting



That's Ok Mike, my head needs a good bending every now and then



I have never heard of these kata (save for perhaps on here ), am I likely to encounter these kata within Shotokan - or would I need to search out an instructor once I am in a position to understand the kata?



Oh , would oi-zuki (straight punch yes?) not be much use against non karateka? I would have thought such a strike would be least expected, and thus more effective? Assuming most people would expect a 'big right' ala boxing???

....having said that, I have often wondered why boxing doesn't seem to use strikes akin to oi-zuki (is it 'zuki' or 'tzuki' - can anyone say for sure??)

Hmmm, my interests in MA are essentially twofold: firstly on an intellectual level I like the history, evolution and development of the styles. Secondly I like the self defence, call it what you will, practical aspect of the art. Learning such of Te and Karate do, and in particular differences in stances (and I assume most other aspects) from a practical art to a sport art, makes me wonder where I should be looking for the Te side of things - maybe the contact you gave me Mike?

David

Hi Mike,



Well think about it, Itosu obviously devised or revised them. Shorin Ryu styles adopted his very popular 'karate program' as a model and followed what Itosu did. Some took on board his Pinan kata, some changed it back away from PE and others just followed his lead. Te might have faded away back then without Itosu's vision. Its virtually gone now.



Mike I have passed this information on before willingly and freely only to later really regret it. I've pointed out more than I want to already and you can now work it out for yourself. I'm not being smug or anything but here are some tips, oi zuki (David you need to look into th Japanese language if you want to know why tsuki/zuki and geri/keri etc.) is how I teach single and multiple punches, the duality of blocks is useful for both modern sparring and close combat and can be worked out easily enough! Finally there is a complete defensive system in Pinan Nidan, hidden out in the open if you look hard at the older versions and not Shotokan, etc.



I use it to teach how to move, use your weight and momentum. See above as well.



Kinjo teaches them all but Mitani just teaches Nidan and Godan. He sees them as useless to his purposes. Kata are teaching tools and at his level, he sees little worthwhile in them. I understand his thinking but I use Shodan to teach a couple of useful things IMO.

Your comment about performance is strange to me. Even if one doesn't bother with competition, kata need to be practised precisely else bad habits can form. Modern kata can create other bad habits though I know.


Well some sources are expensive and very taxing. I used to chat with Mitani just about every day for more than a year. He was quite happy to tell me I was a real dummy when I came up with the wrong answer or when there was some miscommunication and he would rebuke me severely over something I'd never said or implied.

To get to the stage of 'less is more' meant that I studied well over 100 kata from many varied sources only to eventually discover that kata were simply tools (IMO) and certainly not the Holy Grail we used to all imagine. Finally when you satisfy yourself with the answers you get some of the challenge goes and I miss the enthusiasm I once had for research and discovery.

Cheers,
Boz

You've come across some of them already, just with Japanised names. They've also been considerably bastardised from the earlier versions.

Passai = Bassai
Kusanku = Kanku Dai
Naihanchi = Tekki (not in the GKR syllabus)



Sorry, what I meant was that the bad guy wouldn't be likely to attack with oi-zuki.



Boxing has a jab, that's a straight lead hand punch so not too dis-similar.



Ken will certainly give you some food for thought, of that I'm sure.

Mike

Understood, but it does make definitively identifying the original version somewhat challenging. Its difficult to accept anything at face value.



No problem. I quite understand your reticence.



OK, although without getting hands on I'll never know for certain if I fully understand what you're doing.



Let me rephrase it - I'm not interested in kata as performance art, but yes of course it needs to be practiced correctly.

Mike

Thanks for having such an in depth conversation... I for one am learning a lot from itand I'm sure many others are also...

I think the community will benefit more from the discussion if it remained online...

I'm sure we remember the slacker who used to do nothing in the study group and share the good mark. Boz worked and trained extremely hard for his knowledge and it is his to do with what he wants, although I would ask Boz this... Under what circumstances do you consider it appropriate to teach, and what happened to make you so bitter about it?

Not having a go - I definately agree working things out for yourself under guidance is the best way to gain comprehension and retain knowledge. However most seem prepared to teach anyone so it must have been something of a betrayal.

Hi Matt,

You ask good questions and I can't really give you clear answers as I'm still learning about human nature.

Sorry,
Boz

Boz has his personal reasons for drawing a line as to how much and what he is willing to pass on in this medium. I respect that. Similarly, for various reasons there are things which I don't teach people unless I've gotten to know them personally and got a feel for their character, their level of skill etc etc.

Mike

Okay - matter rested

Back to Heian Shodan - and the matter of sequencing. I was picked up for doing the three age uke in the same manner as that video - "one...one-two" and it was suggested "one two three" was more appropriate. This relates to the other topic on different ways different schools teach the same kata. The former appears to suit Mikes application better, but in the end - does it really matter??

For me, timing is dictated by application (so obviously it can vary depending on the application). In practice of the kata I prefer not to rush things. I'd rather students complete each move correctly before moving on to the next. So no, I don't teach '1, 1-2'. I suspect that timing may be important for Boz, given that at least in part its a study in generating momentum, but I'm just guessing.

Mike

Hi Matt,

Probably the most difficult thing for instructors today is knowing how to time and sequence kata. Is it important what order you put the letters and words in a sentence, yes of course it is. This is part of the reason kata is still a puzzle. Kata have been simplified for ease of teaching, modified to be more peasing to the eye and sequences changed for dramatic effect and then passed on with applications bolted on to the new way of doing it. You tell me, is timing important?

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Mike,

I think timing and sequencing are really important. Kata selection is also important as its difficult to make much with faulty tools. When I watch boxing and kickboxing I am amazed at how close their punches are to the older karate.. its all in the momentum IMO.

Cheers,
Boz

I realise the question is rhetorical, but having come from years of training where it wasnt taught at all I'm slowly piecing it together, so humour me .
My newbie take:
Timing links techniques into an effective sequence that practicing one move at a time simply cannot do. That is counterproductive in that it destroys the application by stopping the 'flow' and any momentum build. You dont stop mid attack in a real situation (boxers dont take a break during combinations), why train otherwise. It assists in determining the application by not jumbling them all together and seeing what you can 'pick out of that lot'. To practice 'by the numbers' is simply to practice some kihon robotically on the move.

Hi Matt,

Step by step is practised to get the techniques as precise as possible, the timing of the techniques and the sequences determine how the kata is performed and applied so performance is or should be important to application.

Cheers,
Boz