Hi all,

I've got a young student (9-10yrs) who is a relatively new green belt (and already itching/pushing for his blue). He is technically very good for his age and is very enthusiastic about Karate and in particular, kata.

He goes to several classes and already knows, Bassai Dai, Seinchun and most of Empi. Bassai Dai is his tournament kata, so I encourage him to work on that as well as Saifa, but I am not too sure what I should be saying to him about the other kata that he is keen to learn and work on. I know that he is 'allowed' to learn and practice up to Seinchun in class, but I have real problems with helping him with Empi. I've tried getting through to him that he needs to be patient and keep working on all the kata up to his grade and tournament kata, but he is a child after all and wants to be continually challenged to keep his interest up.

Has anyone else had students like this? Any advice on how to handle them? Should I let him learn/practice whatever kata he wants, or should I continue to pu the brakes on him?

Cheers

Kim

At green belt to "know" up to and including empi and to want to push further for the higher grades he will find he will get bored and will end up leaving...

He does need to concentrate on saifa and bassai dai...

what he needs is to explore the applications within saifa.... make his "knowledge" of saifa worth something... this area will keep him busy for months as saifa is FULL of applications and self defence scenarios...

if you need help in this area there is already a saifa application thread or two within the archives of the forum...

i can try to find it and post a link here to help you to help him... but for him to push forwar he is merely only learning the patterns and the techniques within the kata become completely useless...

It's a stickly thread HERE

enjoy browsing through the thread... it's very extensive

Thanks Susan. I will have a read and see if I can use it with him (probably get a lot out of it myself!). I agree with your advice - unfortunately I think this sort of understanding, comes with maturity, so I will have to be careful how I handle him.

Cheers

Kimu

I tend to feel that kids are better catered for by teaching them more kata so that they feel they're learning something. As they get older they will (hopefully) become more open to learning fewer kata in greater depth and happier to learn stuff that isn't directly related to grading.


Mick

When i started nearly three years ago i didn't have a clue about what a kata was, it took awhile to understand what it all means, but slowly and surely I realized why, now when i do a new kata it seems i improve with some amazment, that today still surprises me and i'm like woow!, i did that!

Last thursday everybody in the lesson was doing Empi, i just went across the room and afterwards at the end of the lesson my sensei lawrence said after seeing how good i was that evening compared to three years ago, he remembers when i couldn't get heian nidan right, and i remember clearly, it was a total puzzle to me.

i feel moving on in karate has opened doors to me like someone has given me a door key and i've opened the door, to improving on in karate

I understand now that once I get my black belt and perhaps beyond too, there will always be something new to learn, and improve on too for which will always surprise me in life.

Its as if karate has no boundries atall, karate is what you make it, i would like to improve and move on and upwards, karate is something i'm very passionate about and i would like to teach it as a career to disabled people (once i acheived my black belt) and because of this, i believe i will go very far

i've got tons of students like that. i always push my students to be the best they can be and then some. if they display a talent for a particular part of karate then build on it!!! don't discourage it. at blue belt i was already training on kata sepai and took out a world title in the world all styles championchips at the gold coast. if theres talent then use it. you could be training the next world champion!. but you also need to push them them to refine the kata they do know, don't let them get lazy with their technique. just look at it this way;if you had a student who excelled in sparring and had a knack for speed and precision with minimal contact would you limit what you taught them? I wouldn't, i'd train them to be the best.
p.s: I learn't kururunfa BEFORE i got my 4th kyu!!

But then what do you do when you've learnt all the kata there is?


Mick

Yeah, but I bet you cant do all them kata's with a fruit pastal in your mouth!

Seriously though, dont you think this all sounds big headed?... A post like that could either make me think 'Man, I aint training enough' or 'Arrogant show off'. Glad I'm not in your class. The dojos I go to make sure you learn a kata and make it right.



When I first started GKR eight months ago, I was one of the best in my dojo at first kata. But now I realise I havent got it right yet. I'm far from best. The only reason I was so was because I got some one on one tuition for a couple of hours by a black belt. Its a relatively easy kata in terms of its content. Yet to get these moves perfect and to flow, well, its an on-going process.

I'm just on with learning fifth kata and only just got my green belt. I'm doing this at a pace that suits me. Some at the same grade know more, some, not as much. Its a personal thing. Whatever fits in with your lifestyle.

Now now lets all play nice

A question for you both (and anyone else) - you say things like 'refine the kata' and 'get the moves perfect'. How do you do this and how do you know?
If anyone elses experiences were like mine I was told to 'work on my kata' and 'get more focus.' I believe now this was something that was said just to make the instructor sound more knowledgeable.

More knowledgeable That sounds about right.
One of my Sensei's, he's just become a black belt, he told me last night that he has yet to see the first kata done perfectly. There are only two stance's in the entire kata. Ready stance and long stance. Yet to see someone actually fall into the stance's without the need for minor adjustment is near imposible.

As you'll all know, so far I'm learning fifth kata. Saifa had a few sumo stance's in there, but not Bassai Dai. Now fifth is full of them. Sumo is a stance I find so hard to do. My black belt instructor does the stance, in my opinion, to perfection. Whilst others seem to go too wide and so low that their thighs are horizontal.

The 'focus' you mention, I've always viewed this as why the kata is being done. Again, first kata, many will just take the first move without looking. Just turn and block! To me, the focus is seeing why we do the move. Someone is coming to kick me at my left 'cause I can see. I see because the first thing I did was to sharply look to my left. So I turn and block.

I guess with kata, and karate in general, its personal perception coupled with effectivness that make it correct....?

I think those two should be read together - as his statement reflects his perception.

I wonder though - is it really that important that Taikyoku Shodan is perfected? WHat possible use are minute adjustments to stances? It's been said before that amongst other things kata can often be merely a training tool. WHat does T-S actually teach?

How good does a pianist have to get at his scales before he nails the music piece?

...and I so pinched that metaphor from someone but I cant recall who - so apologies for nicking your ideas

hey pleb thats a bit rude. and yeah a fruit pastel in the mouth would probably improve my kata. yes well hot headed and showing off i don't think thats part of a females characteristics. i love my students and want them to be the best, and well i think my students are pretty good!! my white belts are on saifa so i'm happy with that. if you think what i said was arrogant then i apologise to you i just get excited about kata and i empathize with what the child is feeling. he could be the next world champion and if you don't feel that your training hard enough when comparing yourself to us well hey, sorry again for making you feel that way bro. all i can say is i hope the little boy goes far in karate cause my kids are doing great. and what happens when you learn all the kata? well currently there are over 150 kata in karate, 15 in gkr general and then we've got to learn the go ju kata if or when we get the opportunity to go to japan. there's tons of kata. and when you run out, MAKE SOME UP MAN!. national all styles has opened creative forms so we won't get bored

Oh dear. So many kata, so little time.

Hi Pleb,

So you turn left in first kata because someone is coming to kick at your left and then turn 180o to your right because some is coming from behind to kick at you? You then turn to the left after finishing them with a lunge punch to the body and block another kick and then persue the attacker with three punches? It doesn't really make any sense does it? Perhaps it would be better to treat it as a training exercise and 'focus' on getting the techniques and turning correctly.

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Matt,

I don't think it matters a rats rear end if Taikyoku Shodan is perfected or not. What does matter is that one able to execute the techniques with correct body alignment for them and is able to turn efficiently and transfer energy into the lims through this alignment and use of momentum. One is introduced to a pattern that will reappear in Shuri Te type kata, i.e. Shorin Ryu, Shotokan Ryu, Wado Ryu and some Shito Ryu kata and other schools that utilise Pinan and Heian kata and others.

The short answer is one can use the kata to teach turns, stepping and a pattern that will help with future development. That'smy opinion anyway..

Cheers,
Boz

GKRSt0rmer... All's I can say is sorry

I've a nasty habbit of speaking my mind. Gets me in trouble alot....

hey thanks pleb your the best!

have a great day tomorrow, i know i will, shihans coming to teach our class all day tomorrow so i'm all excited now. we don't get him much here in melb and we sometimes feel left out. especially after i found out he trains the syd state team. far out they're lucky!. wish he'd come and train us in our state team here. but its cool. we still love our sensei. anyways i'm blabbing. gotta go clean my uniform, can't look like a grub in front of shihan tomorrow.

Well said pleb. I've always been quick at learning the sequence of new kata. But frankly the first kata I ever learnt (Pinan Nidan in 1977) still challenges me. All the talk of rushing on to the next grade kata leaves me cold. Its surely far better to focus on gaining a deeper understanding of a few kata and to able to actually apply the lessons learnt against realistic attacks.

Mike

Mike - what do you mean by realistic attacks? Are you differentiating between the dojo style partner assisted attack Vs street attack? or defence against a life threatening situation compared to a pub scuffle? What exactly are you training to defend against?

Hi W

You seem to be touching on several aspects, which (in my terminology) are:
1. Compliance - how uncooperative/cooperative your training partner is
2. Severity - how much harm (in a real rather than a training environment) is the person trying to do to you
3. Realism - technical aspects of the attacker's technique that determine the likelihood of its use outside the dojo

Compliance: all training and all competition is compliant to a degree. Obviously when you're learning a technique in the first instance it helps the learning process if your partner is reasonably compliant. As you improve they should gradually decrease their level of compliance until eventually it (safely) approximates the non-compliance found in real violence.

Severity: pretty obvious, does the bad guy just want to dent your pride, increasing all the way through to attacking you with lethal intent. This will no doubt dictate the severity of your response.

Realism: simply put, for example, oi-zuki isn't realistic. Even worse, stepping back into zenkutsudachi before attacking with oi-zuki is even less realistic. In all the lively scuffles I've been involved in nothing like that has ever happened. So its clearly unrealistic. Even worse, after the attacker has stepped through they could take things to new heights of UN-reality by standing stock still to allow the defender to do their nice fancy series of counters. To make it more realistic the attacker could simply start much closer and simply slide (NOT STEP) slightly into range and throw a straight punch.

The critical point is that non-compliance and realism are not the same thing. A training partner could attack in an unrealistic but very non-compliant way (eg. oi-zuki hard and fast with the full intention of knocking your block off). Conversely, you can practice defending against wholly realistic attacks but with your partner starting off compliant. They should (IMO) only become less compliant as your technique improves.

Mike