Just wondering if anyone here has had any experience in another form of martial art?
Ive done some Taekwondo before. Gave me a great background for when starting karate.

Hi deano,

I have never trained in any other stlye of martial arts, but i do compete against and judge other styles in the NAS.

Hi there Omega. You a NAS ref? Disappointing turnout last time I thought. Mind you it was Mothers Day. I thought only the AFL scheduled events on days like that

Hi Deano,

Other Style? (Karate, Kung Fu ...?)

I have trained in Shotokan (2 styles), Shito Ryu and GKR! (All Karate styles - 'cos it suits me and my "whippet-like" body! ... lol).

GKR is my core style, as I have done it the longest, but I am currently training in Shotokan with Busihido Budokan as well (commenced training in October 2002). The other styles, I did as a teenager some years ago.

Why do you ask?

CraigL

"whippet like" - lol. Dare you to post a photo!

Just wandering because most students I meet have only known GKR. I guess thats due to the club getting out there and marketing themselves and getting people involved. People who would never have otherwise have done a Martial Art. This is a good thing I reckon.

I'm interested to compare different styles. What they do, their strengths & weaknesses etc.

I have a BMI of 20.0, hence "Whippet-like".

The difference in styles I have experienced, is due more to how good the instructor is. My latest instructor has been training for 28 years - Shihan Stacey Karetsian has been training for approx 19 years. I get to train with someone more experienced than Shihan every day if I wish, whereas it is a special event in GKR.

That's the biggest difference that I have noticed - less bullcrap and more good stuff!

Yes, a lot of GKR students have only known GKR, and can be very protective at times too!

The second thing to say about styles: it will always come back to the individual in the end - a bad practitioner will always be bad, regardless of style. Some styles may promote good and bad behaviour / techniques, whereas others will not, but in the end, a bad apple is a bad apple!

I learnt my first Bo Kata recently with Bushido - something you'll never do with GKR. So, there is no weaponry in GKR. GKR's sparring is very tournament based; self defence training is done during special seminars or when the instructor feels like it, and I've seen some fairly "bad" techniques passed off as self defence - this is where the experience of the instructor really shines through (i.e. when they have considerable experience) and you practise some better / realistic stuff.

GKR does offer a lot of "events" from time to time - something others don't offer. That can keep things intersting, beyond the usual kick and punch routine. But again, different clubs acn do this as well - it comes down to group dynamics.

In the end, instructor and student are the 2 biggest variables (IMO) but there are too many other variables to make an objective and definitive statement!

CraigL

Yes, I have seen some techniques in self-defence seminars where one of the requirements to execute the technique is physical strength - not much good for smaller, lighter or weaker (in strength) students. These kinds of techniques I avoid when I do self-defence work. Since I don't think an attacker is going to hold on lightly in case they hurt you, I don't see this as being much benefit apart from building confidence.

I have a MA club down the road where they teach primarily jujitsu, kempo and brazilian, as well as kickboxing, arnis and a few others. The chief instructor there has been doing MA something in the order of 30-35 years. Also is a very nice guy and doesn't look down his nose at other styles.

I also think that any style has inherent weaknesses in the earlier stages of training until the student reaches sufficient level of skill to compensate for or overcome these in some way.


Mick

Im not a qualified NAS ref, but i was judging all day, the reason that the day was small in competitors was becasue a number of the clubs that entered have folded, and Lee, the sifu of June Lee Do was on holiday and didnt give the entry forms out to his students, next time will be much better.

Hey deano just curious did you enter, if so in which club?

Ian

Hey Deano

Thanks for the invite to this karate board. I've had a quick read through some of the articles on here. There are some very interesting topics going around. I particularly liked the topic on sparring.
I'm not allowed to spar in my style yet, so some of the points raised will help me when i get the chance to finally have a go.


Ive been studying Kung fu and am loving it. I haven't had the chance to compete in any tournaments yet and I haven't had much contact or experience with any other style.

I've seen a little bit of Deanos karate class and thought it was very cool. It's very different to what I'm used to.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever trained or is currently training in any different styles too. I'd love to know more about the martial arts world.

Heya BC.

Omega - I dont compete as Im not sure about the whole tournament thing. Maybe one day.
I popped down to see how some of the Burridge Boys went. Couldnt help but feel sorry for the poor guy who fell out of the ring and nearly took out the trophy table. He had had his first sparring class the day before! Full credit to him for having a go. I guess thats what it should be all about.

Yeah good on him for giving it a try, as for burridge we dont see much of them anymore, its a pity because no there is even less sompetitors for us to beet

They didnt enter much last year, that apparently will change this year.
They have some great sparrers coming up - hope we are up to the challenge!

hey deano

good on your mates for having a go in the tournament
maybe you should join them next time and have a go yourself ????

can you tell us a little about Tae Kwon Do? its origins, similarities, differences to karate etc?
how does it compare?

i'd be interested to know about what else is out there. maybe not be as closed minded about the martial arts world as i am at the moment

Okaaay
Tae kwon do - The way of the hand and foot
heres something to ponder



So you see the Japanese developed Karate and the Koreans Taekwondo along almost parallel lines.
Taekwondo is much more lower body oriented. Whereas karate has four kicks TKD has about 20. WTF Tournaments are also much more contact oriented, which really put me off. I dont want to either win or lose by a knockout thanks very much.

D

Yeah hope they are aswell, also karate has more than 4 kicks, gkr only uses 4, other styles i know of have up to 10 differant kicks, most have 6 or 7.

Informative thread this one.

What weapons does Bushido use?
Since GKR is supposedly part based on Shotokan I would be interested in your opinion of the similarities/differences etc.

Cheers,
Matt

Bushido Budokan vs. GKR.

Bushido:

Sensei Daniel Spice B) has been training 28 years! Previous AKF champion in Kata and Kumite.

Full-time dojo (not big, but well equipped :thumbwink: ): matted floors, 3 punching bags, wooden weapons, floor-to-ceiling ball, punching pads of various sizes, mirrors on one complete wall (partially down another wall), side rails on another wall (for stretching etc).

Bo kata are the weaponry kata that I know of so far.

Take downs are taught and encouraged B) .

Bunkai knowledge is examined.

Internationally recognised / affiliated grading and judging criteria.

GKR:

None of the above! Frank, but true. (Oh, one full-time dojo!)

Grubby training halls in school gyms , no equipment supplied (bring your own) .

More focused on basics.

Training sessions and gradings tend to be a bit longer.

Bigger organisation as a single entity, but compared to the AKF schools, that's not a problem - an AKF member can train at any other AKF dojo. Sensei Daniel Spice knows the best schools in the different states.

More games in class.

More special sessions and seminars.

Conclusion:

A mixed bag! I'm more intersted in good training that's credible, therefore I don't get too interested in the games and other superfluous activities of GKR. The combination of both styles is keeping me happy for the time being - the future is flexible for me now, in more ways than one.

CraigL.

Craig,
What you are saying sounds a lot like my experience.
Instructor: Master Mark Burridge - 5th Degree Black Belt. (Imagine training with Shihan every week).
Dedicated training facilities with equipment - heaps of focus mitts, strike shields, those big standing kick bags with the water filled base.
Patterns alas are pants. Karate katas really kick arse in comparison.

I do feel that GKR instructors do a damn good job given what they have to deal with. As you put it, crappy halls and no equipment. I'd like to see the club invest a bit more in their biggest asset, their people!

Dont get me wrong, I love karate now. I do however think the club could pump some of that money back in.

Training with someone who has that amount of MA experience takes the shine off the special classes and visits from high-ranking GKR people, doesn't it?


Mick

Hi Mick,

You also learn from those you train with. In my classes you can train side by side with black belts from 1st to 5th dan. Many of whom have medalled in State, National, Oceania and World Karate Championships.

We train on jigsaw mats in a full time dojo with mirrors, change rooms and shower, bags, mobile shields, focus mitts, and a supply of Bo, Tonfa for use by members.

Within the training, members are taught joint-locks and throws as part of the applications of the kata. Weaponry consists of bo, tonfa, sai, kama, and nunchaku.

We have an affiliation with a small group in Japan under a 3rd generation teacher from Itosu who continues to teach the original karate and kata.

We compete in both AKF and TKF competitions and this year had planned to take a team to the AAU National s in the USA where they regularly have 2500 competitors. The international travel disruptions through the War in Iraq and SARS led us to cancel earlier in the year.

Anyway, no boasting, just another comparison that can be made for interest sakes..

Regards,
Boz

Sounds good Boz, but seeing as I can't afford the airfare just at the moment I guess I'd better start pumping up the tyres on my pushie, eh!


Mick

Just what else is out there?

I can think of about 4 or 5 different styles of Karate...
Then there's Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu and Thai Chi, Aikido, Ju Jitsu, Ninjitsu, Muay Thai, (and variations of all these) plus more that I can't even think of or imagine.

What exactly are we missing out on by restricting our training to GKR???

There's probably so much more we can use in self defence...

Does anyone know anything about all/any of the above or others.
I wouldn't mind getting a little background information on the general martial arts scene.

hey Deano,

just curious as to when the burridge guys are coming back, this tournament or will we have to wait a few more???

Oh and if they thought we were good before, we are even better now.

IMO the biggest problem with styles is that everyone always argues theirs is better than everyone else, instead of taking the position that there are many paths up a mountain but the view from the top is the same.

By restricting to GKR you do miss out on the grappling side of the art, as well as weapons though these may not be everyone's cup of tea anyway. But there are a number of escapes, locks and restraints in kata which we don't recognise because we don't learn them.


Mick

They were at the last one, and will be at the next.
NAS is an option for anyone there, but isnt considered a big deal. There is no "NAS TEAM" like we have, rather anyone who wishes to enter may do so. If the indtructors publicise it they get more entrants. From what I hear NAS is being mentioned a bit more, so I would say the turnout will be increasing, which can only be good for the competition Theyve also taken on a lot more students recently as the schools grown and advertised, so as these grade I'd expect a few more.

Sionnagh I like the way you put that. Very nice. :thumbwink:

My particular club (kung fu) doesnt enter into the NAS tournaments but i'd be interested to know how the other kung fu schools go and also what sorts of things they do.
I havent been able to get down to a NAS tournament but I have heard a lot about them and am currently trying to get my instructors to introduce it.

Maybe one day.

We do have our own little "mixed styles" tournaments though.
In July/August there will be a HUGE Muoy Thai tournament going on and some higher ranked students from my school will be going up against some of their higher ranked students.

Worth a look to check that out maybe.

Check out Blitz magazine - it has the NAS results. GKR is prominent, but sheer numbers can have that effect!!

The results should give you some idea about how the other styles fair. :thumbwink:

CraigL

or just check out THIS THREAD and follow the link

dont say I dont do anything for you guys....

There are other karate comps around the place which are open to other clubs.

But I think GKR won't let you enter, does anyone know?

Hmm, maybe need a token membership of another club to enter perhaps?


Mick

Something I think needs to be discussed.
We viewed NAS as a karate tournament which we were allowed to enter.
Now before you scoff consider the facts. The rules are predominately Karate points sparring with some allowances for other styles techniques. TKD sparring was all either semi or full contact. I believe the same can be said for Kung Fu, and of course the Cobra Kick boxers. The entry form even asks you your grade as "1st - 5th kyu" etc. We'd never heard of a "kyu" as TKD uses "gup". It all seemed like we were doing some karate for a change, and taking on karate (not just GKR) at their own game.
Not belittling the fine achievements of the NAS team, but I do believe some perspective needs to be put on it.

Incidentally, what if I wanted to enter a NAS tournament but wasnt part of the team? Is this allowed?

But why not?
what if you were freelance and not representing the club?

Also - what if you represented another style against GKR because you trained in both?

I have considered that. Imagine some of the grumpy people if you decided to enter NAS through another club?

Many other clubs get advice of comps whether they have students enter or not, just in case they have students who decide they would like to enter.


Mick

i wouldnt mind getting involved in the NAS tournaments...

i have seen and heard good things about them but havent had the chance to enter yet.

i'd LOVE to see how i fair up against someone from another style.

i didnt do too badly against other karate students in our local tournament...
im sure i could kick butt...

Sionnagh, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.

With regards entering for another style, I take it cross training doesnt happen a lot?

Deano, I'm certain you can enter NAS Tournament by your own, otherwise why Blitz Magazine put on the form in its magazine?
The thing you may want to consider is whether you are up to the standard (ie. fitness, skill, attitude, agillity, etc) required to compete in NAS.

What I mean is that many clubs get notifications of upcoming comps. Their students may or may not decide to enter, but the club gets notifications for the benefit of tournament-oriented students. Sometimes they have a student enter, sometimes not.

I don't know how prevalent cross-training is since GKR in general seems to frown upon it, so it is not a common subject of discussion.

I have heard an SRI say on different occasions "if you train with GKR you aren't allowed to train with another club", "if you teach for GKR you aren't allowed to train with another club" and also "if you teach for another club you aren't allowed to train with GKR".

I'm sure you could submit an entry to NAS as a GKR student, but bear in mind that NAS has a limit on the number of entries accepted from any one club, and it may be that your entry could be declined if you don't submit it with the entries from the tournament team. And you can't submit it along with tournament team entries unless you train with them as part of the team.

Much better chance of getting an entry to NAS if you are a member of another club and represent that club instead.


Mick

Thanks - I guess it makes sense that the team should have priority if entries are limited, but it does seem they (NAS) are screaming out for competitors at the moment. I'd like to give it a go, just dont think I can commit for an entire season. Still a slacker at heart

The thing is, as I see it, is that if they allow more entries above the limit from a club (e.g. GKR) then they will get more entries from that club. But smaller clubs' competitors may get discouraged by big clubs 'flooding' the comp which only further reduces the total entries in the longer term.


Mick

i wouldnt mind seeing the NAS tournament limiting the entries of larger clubs more, so that more different clubs would enter.

it'd be a shame if other clubs pulled all entries just because they feel threatened by the size of clubs such as GKR.

Like last WA NAS Tourney, GKR owned. Read it in Blitz Mag or the web site.

We always dominate in numbers, and last tourn not even half of the team competed, but more people from other styles are coming, we are up to about 100 competitors total as at last tourn.

so basically...
if you cant win on talent, win on sheer numbers...

doesnt really seem very fair to me.

That's not the case, caleb, the GKR state team just happens to have more in numbers, if we can blame GKR for having numerous members in the team to give peer pressure, we can also blame other martial arts not to develop or bring more members with their teams.
Also remember, in GKR we practice more for tournament purpose in general. So the technique taught (rules) in sparring is very similar to NAS, whereas other martial arts might not really emphasise on competition rules, only recently. So in tournament, we've been adjusted for legal/illegal moves, which gives us advantage.

OK I have 2 questions...

1. Why is it called the 'state team' and not 'NAS team' when the only comps they enter are NAS?

2. Are you saying that GKR is in fact sports karate and therefore not martial art karate?


Mick

1. It's still called NAS team, but since the NAS team involves people from GKR across the state, then people may see it either NAS team or state team. Either one as long as you get the idea

2. This is quite long to type, but what I'm going to type I summarised from the Martial magazine, July 2003.
I read once that there is only one martial art ever existed in the whole world, the rest is the styles that people believe in (ie. like in religion). From the magazine, martial art itself can be studied under budo or bujutsu.

Bujutsu refers to martial arts studied for combat utility. Tradtionally, bujutsu is the art of war, and the primary goal is combat and to death. Bujutsu is the origin of evolution of modern martial arts. From what I interpret, it means trainings that goals are purely self-defence, such as the hybrid of many traditional martial arts to adapt to real situation (ie. real violent attacks), or ninjutsu training.

Budo has deeper meaning than just being able to do self-defence, I read the interpretation from many masters, they said it in different way, but if I sum up, the idea is same. Logically, the idea of budo is that you can't understand the word just by reading one material because you won't find the answer. The word is an abstract philosophy that you can understand by looking deeper and deeper.

The understanding of the word 'budo' is exactly the same as it is put in practice. One master, William J. Dometrich from Chito-Ryu said,' budo is a martial art that is studied for self-improvement through self-discipline required to master it over years of dedication, hard-work and study. Budo may also utilized as a form of self-defence, but this should not be the primary reason for studying budo.' There are many other budo interpretations by the karatekas in the mag.

Now about sparring. In the mag, there is an interview with the recently passed-away Sensei Keinosuke Enoeda from Shotokan. According to him, sparring is a sport that has very little relations if not none to self-defence. Sparring is more a test of abilities, abilities of mind and power control. He said sport karate is a definite aspect of karate-do.

Well from what I read in the mag and your question, I'm more curious now on how you define sport. For me, since in GKR we have sparring and we have tournament, and we follow rules which don't allow us for direct physical contact etc make the sparring is more like a sport (it also applies in olympic games). Sport for me is not about competition between people which end up some feel dominating the others. There's certainly win or lose in a competition, but by sport, we don't focus our winning just on how many medals we got, but it's more how we performed during the competition. Because in the tournament our goal is not to put down people, and we're assessed on our attitude as well. That's why there's such a word 'sportsmanship'. In the situation where I realise my odd of winning is not really high, instead of thinking 'I can't lose to this guy', I prefer putting this way 'I may win/lose to this guy, but even if I lose I won't give it easily'. That way if I do lose, I won't be very disappointed, as long as I have give all I have

To sum up, (this is purely my own personal opinion) GKR is indeed a budo martial art and it is not entirely sport, instead it has sport aspects in it.

I apologise if I make the readers bored or fall asleep There might be some words that I put them ambiguously, coz it's near my bed time.

I suggest if you're interested in this, try to find the magazine, it's full of deeper meaning of martial arts than just being a fighting lesson.

I was not taking a shot, which is how it may have seemed on re-reading my earlier post. Rather I was trying to encourage people to think and question.

I agree, kumite is not exactly a self-defence aspect of karate though it is a testing of skill. The rules keep it relatively safe, eg no strikes below the belt, but of course if you needed to apply it your attacker wouldn't know nor care about those types of rules.
I have seen people not attempt to defend against low strikes because they're not "scoring" techniques. I have also seen people tell others not to bother defending against those same kinds of "non-scoring" techniques. Though if you don't defend and it lands it can hurt.

Another thing I try to get people to think about is kata. What is the function of kata? Is it, as I have heard said, the "arty" side of karate - performance art only, or is there more to kata than learning a pattern and getting the techniques and timing right?


Mick

G'day mick. I can answer the kata question, but, again hehehe... it's from the magazine I read. Sensei Enoeda explained it very broad. One thing from him, is that kata is part of budo. Here, I type the excerpt of it (hope you don't mind):

The Kata Budo Connection by Keinosuke Enoeda.

True budo is many things. Sport karate is OK, but you must practice kata as well. Kata training is very necessary for taking part in sport karate. This keeps techniques fresh and it is also important because it develops the body properly. It is necessary to keep fit for the art.

Kata teaches how each technique is to be performed in terms of body movements. It conditions the body and the mind. With kata training you reach a higher level of fitness. All your techniques are sharp and fresh. You have been drilling and excercising the body, extending your knowledge of tactics, techniques and applications. This keeps one fresh and also insures that all the techniques will have the right amount of power and precision.

There is more explanation about kata, but the above will do.

BTW, Mick, are you a sensei? If yes, which dojo do you teach? I see you are also active in MSN GKR forum.

Hello Postmaster

I read that piece by Enoeda Sensei and I am saddened that he has passed away at a relatively young age. However I've read a lot of what he had to say about various aspects of karate but at the end of the day he says nothing of any substance. That is not meant as a criticism, most Japanese Sensei are conditioned that way. There is tatemae and honne, one is sort of for public consumption and the other is what one truly believes.

Enoeda Sensei taught modern kata and kumite which is more akin to sport and performance art than anything else. Budo is a difficult concept even for Japanese and very few truly understand it. I barely have a clue but know so, always a good sign The East has their concept of Budo, in the west we have our ideals of Sportsmanship.. much easier for us to truly comprehend.

Enoeda Sensei is telling us that some kata are for developing a karate body.. which ones though? Answer no supplied by him but he is referring to Naifanchi (Tekki) and Sanchin kata. Kata training is now practiced for great form and is therefore a great exercise routine and great for memorization and concentration.
Tremendous skills that gives one the mental edge.

What he left out though is that most kata suitable for self-defense but you need to know a little about the code of kata and a teacher that can teach such things. Some kata such as Seisan/Hangetsu are terrific kata for basic self-defense situations as they show how to defend against the most common assault situations.
What are these attacks, what are these responses? How does one find them? You need a good teacher..

Regards,
Boz

This has turned into a great thread, and I have enjoyed reading these posts - please, keep them up. I havent read anything from long term practitioners, and these messages really hit home how little I know.

However:
I still find it very hard to link kata to any combat scenario. I firmly believe in kata as the ultimate test of the art of karate, but for self defence, its pants!

A while ago CraigL posted about his "karate diamond" theory - I think this is the way to go. Basics, Kata, Kumite and self defence all contributing to the well rounded martial artist.

but hey- what do I know??

I remember someone told me this, kata was developed during the time when life was simple. The GKR kata is following the traditional kata, some of the moves aren't applicable to today's situation. Like there's one move (can't remember which kata) where one grabs the groin area, but it's easy to do so in the past because most pants in the past were made from thin materials.

You should ask your sensei for bunkai if you wanna no the real application of kata, from then on, you may want to develop or think thoroughly how that moves can be applied today.

As for budo, I think as we progress for years or even decades we will perceive something deeper that we can't describe it with words but we can feel it. But I'm sure even now, for us that is serious about martial arts have actually experienced budo, we just can't tell about it. Things like if we gain more confident, more discipline with our daily life, respect to other people, I think these examples are parts of budo.