Hi Deano,

Modern karate bases its training around kata. The basics are there to practise kata techniques and little to no connection is made between kata, kumite and self-defense.

Legitimate karate is based on self-defense.

The basics (kihon), the fixed formal exercise routines (kata), the exchange of techniques of impact (kumite) and the grappling techniques (toride) are first and foremost techniques able to be used in both self-defense and combat.

Regards,
Boz

How does karate perform grappling? I see karate has broaden its horizon nowadays, just when I thought about aikido, I found sabaki, and one of my senseis taught me a little bit about it.

Where can I find more info about grappling in karate?

Hi
The kids train in Tang soo do,as well as GKR,we have found the prime difference between the two styles(for us) is that GKR is very punch orientated,and Tang soo do is very kick orientated.
Katas are very similar,first Kata is the same as GKR ,2nd Kata is the same except that instead of doing kicks TSD do high blocks.As the Katas progress they do there own versions which are not too disimilar to Bassai dai, Seiunchin,and Empi.
They also do musical forms and weapons.
Kumite is contact although they are well padded up.Victoria and Sam love the weapons class they actually gave up a GKR lesson with one of their favourite Senseis,to go to weapons training as the times clashed.
GKR is their core style,that wont change, but they wanted more,(weapons musical forms) and we find the two combine very well,although one is Japanese and one is Korean.
Nigel

Excellent to see the kids getting a broad exposure to martial arts.

Just wondering if they sometimes confuse the two styles?

Deano
Good point and something i was very worried about myself.We are fortunate that both Victoria and Sam have the ability to seperate the two styles,and as yet there hasnt been a problem,but you never know!
We feel that Tang Soo Do has helped the children a lot with their GKR style,It is no coincidence that the RM has commented how much the children have come on in the last 6 months(Training in TSD FOR 6 MONTHS).
Maybe its the fact they are training with 5 b belts and the sensei is a 14 times world champ(MOSTLY MUSICAL FORMS AND WEAPONS) and is a 4th dan.
Compared to a kyu grade sensei and a handful of kyu grades above green belt. not that theres anything wrong with that at all,and they always take something away from a GKR session.
The higher grades they are training with at TSD seems to be helping the kids attain a higher standard.
Unfortunatley they dont get the chance to train with high grade students at GKR very often,normally at special seminars.
And there in lies a huge difference between the styles.
Nigel

I found the biggest problems were sayin "hai" during taekwondo and calling my sensei "sir" in karate

Techniques which were totally different werent a problem, but those with minor variations caused a lot of confusion initially. Eventually I was able to slot into the zone required with each particular style and found it not a problem. Hope the kids find it the same - and good on you for giving them a broad exposure to martial arts. :thumbwink:

Yes Victoria and Sam have both done the same thing by saying Hai in TSD classes,and they have done GKR second Kata instead of TSD second form,we call these Blond moments.Overall they cope very well wiyh the two styles.
Nigel :thumbwink:

an interesting thread, and though I'm jumping the gun (because I can not correctly perform any single move yet) I was wondering how such flexibility in style would be received within the dojo?

an example - ive only had one lesson - and my first thought in attempting the short snap punch to nose (please educate me to the correct terminology) was in thinking it would not be as effective as a more boxing / bruce lee (sorry its my only reference) short fast jab, you know ? with the knuckles sideways on? What would happen if I were to do such during sparring ? (some time away i hope )

I admit I understand little of what I speak LOL but it was a thought

By the way, Bruce Lee wasn't a boxer. He studied Gung Fu and then created his own style, Jeet Kune Do. And that move you refered to, the short fast jab? Well Bruce Lee was always looking for better ways of defending yourself in the shortest amount of time.

Most styles, and I include GKR in this, use quite few different moves to use against an opponent before they are taken down, whilst Bruce Lee's way fo thinking was to take them down in one move. No messing around. Just *Bam*.

You'd probably get away with using that move while sparring, when you eventually grade to yellow belt, but I wouldn't get comfy with it. It's not an actual GKR move, I don't think, so if you're seen using it... Death, or something.

Chudan Zuki is the head level punch, I think.

What it sounds like you're talking about Les is a vertical fist. I use it sometimes.

Interestingly, in a discussion with my jj instructor he mentioned he had read that a physiological study showed that when punching head level, about a 60 degree incline of the hand (from biggest to smallest knuckle) provided best alignment of the muscle and bone for punching, down to about 30 degree incline at stomach level and horizontal at groin level.

What the complete rotation to horizontal does (I believe) is aid in tensing the fist for impact. Not good if you punch with a vertical fist and forget to tense (not good with any punch if you forget to tense).


Mick

I didnt want to comment too much about the rights and wrongs of a GKR move - i am in no position to do so but I can claim a pretty good jeet kune do punch combo used in a real life situation (then i ran like hell before all the gouging and rolling around in the mud biting ears started ) - I'm wondering the same for blocks, will the emphasis be on avoiding an opponents move or showing good GKR form ? Don't get me wrong, I intend to learn, as best I can, the correct moves and kata just interested

me, myself and i think evade, evade, evade what good is form if in the end it gets you kicked or hit?, form comes through learning evasive measures, well i think so anyway, sure if you can control the sparring/fight your in and are comfortable that you can block whatever is thrown work on form, but if not learn to get out the way first then worry about form

lol my memory and one more thing the rotation of the fist does, is break skin alot easyer if you are hitting on a boney part of the face.

Les man you did just what any martial artist should have done: Just enough to get your sorry arse out of there. Bugger style and form - thats for gradings. In the street whatever works mate!
like to hear the story :thumbwink:

Dojo techniques don't work in a street situation due to the fact that distance between opponents is different in the street.When squaring off in the dojo there is a distance of anything betwwen 3-6ft.In the street that distance can be down to 6inches.Blocks are no use at this distance,who fires first wins,simple as that.You must anticipate when the opponent is about to attack,most times this is when he has become monosyllababic.If he's still shouting and screaming its unlikley he will attack.When fighting at this range techniques must be devastating to take the opponent out with one shot.Always follow up until he is finished.Don't assume he has given up because he is on the floor,it could be a trick.

Karate is a sport,and one I love but more realistic measurers are required for self defence.I feel GKR could do a lot of work in this area .They could give seminars on personal protection to pensioners,children etc and run street fighting classes alongside the competion karate.The original powwer techniques of karate could be brought back ie:fa jin and qi.These have gradually been lost since the transmission from Okinawa.Karate is an utterly devastating art if practiced properly.

The late Kimura Sensei of Shukokia invented the double hip strike.Why can't GKR incorporate this technique?Its he difference between tapping the opponent and hitting him with a battering ram.

Hope this helps.

Some of the self defence I did in the past involved formalised one-step sparring, which was of course controlled with safety as a factor. These were also part of the grading criteria as each grading required additional techniques with increasing degrees of complication and takedowns.
Occassionally we would do more "street style" one steps and your partner would simply throw a punch, which you had to block/avoid then counterattack. This way of doing things highlighted the almost irrelevance of the first way. The flashy techniques and grabs went right out the window and simple punches and knees showed out to be the most effective way.

I guess the point is your self defence training needs to accurately reflect the likely environment you will use it in. I dont discount the one-steps and karate sparring as useless however. These are essential in building the confidence a person needs to actually defend themselves rather than totally capitulating when attacked. Some pretty meek and mild students started karate the same time I did, and you'd think they were different people now to see them sparring. That to me is a fair bit of the battle won.

All martial arts systems have their self defence. Some more than others.

Some styles you need to look carefully to find the self defence methods that would work for you.

But if all you're after is the best and most efficient way to defend yourself against a street attack (especially the ladies) forget about martial arts and do a real life street smart self defence course.

They're short courses that teach the basics. And the basics are what work the best.

Martials arts are basically just that...
an ART.

I beg to differ... naturally

Martial arts are an art BUT most of the martial arts now are the do rather than the jutsu. (Japanese arts at least)

Though there is even a name for self-defence aspects - goshin


Mick

Okay Mick, turn on the subtitles please

Sorry

do means way
jutsu means art
goshin means self defence

Generally you might say the do is the sanitised version - things like eye gouges and throat strikes are not done. In the way that Jigoro Kano created judo from jujutsu. Although karate was created as karate-do since there wasn't really a karate-jutsu. Well there was but it wasn't known as that.


Mick

Wow, Sionnagh, that's really interesting. Though, I knew those meanings anyway, so there. =P

You know... I've been studying Kung Fu for nearly a year now and I STILL don't know what the term means. And I don't really know that many of the techniques in Chinese either. Nor how to count...
Hmmmm. Better start listening more I think.

One of the interesting things with jujutsu is that in class the instructor uses the japanese term first and english second, the syllabus only has the japanese terms on it and at grading only the japanese is given.
Some people have english written all over their syllabus to decipher it though I find the breakdown easier to work with. If you know the names for the body parts that you're required to work with (no snide comments thanks ) and the root names of the techniques it's easy enough to put together just what he's asking for


Mick

ok i really wanted to comment on the body part thing but i'll let it pass this once

Yeah, you would!


Mick

Fang passed on it? He really does have a fever... =P

come on mick i showed restraint B)

I'm thinking to do another karate style, I'm prone to the traditional one this time.

My choices are Shito Ryu and Goju. I don't know what the difference between Goju Ryu and Goju Kai.

Also the reason, I consider Shito Ryu due to its weapon training and sparring focus.
Goju style is also good because it's close to chinese martial art.
And I think Goju Kai teaches Tai Sabaki, which is a bit like aikido.

Any more info to make up my mind?

Will 2 karate styles complement each other or instead mess up?

Cant help you with the question sorry, but doesnt nas frown on cross training?

Be interested in which style you choose - keep us posted.

There is a big risk of confusion if training with 2 different karate schools at the same time as there will be differences in basics and kata.

Most schools will teach tai sabaki (body movement) and ashi sabaki (footwork). Which school you go to depends on personal preference, and there are good schools as well as poor ones - the grade of the instructor will not necessarily reflect on the standard of tuition.


Mick

well i see it this way gkr has the numbers but talent is what counts, upart from the judges ooops sorry

Bjj,submission Grappling,Vale-Tudo here.