Hi Folks,
This has touched upon in the "Rei - And opening moves" thread, but following a discussion with Mick about this, I think its good enough to warrant a thread of its own.
When we look at the "ready" position at the start of each kata, ive noticed that on some kata, the ready position differs. For instance, at the start of Empi - the hands are loose at the sides, whilst at the start of Bassai Dai, they are held in a "salute" position.
Whats the interesting thing is this:- at the start of Niafanchi Tenshi - the hands are held in a similar position.
Bassai Dai is a shotokan Kata and Niafanchi is a Goju kata.
Is this due to the two styles having a common lineage? And could we adapt the applications contained in one kata, to fit another kata, even though they`re of a different style?
Are these the only two kata to have these similarities - or are there more?
Full Version: Yoi
QUOTE (WombatOneSix @ Nov 21 2005, 02:15 AM) 
Whats the interesting thing is this:- at the start of Niafanchi Tenshi - the hands are held in a similar position.
Naifanchi Tenshi? I don't think there's any such kata. But there is a kata (or series of kata) called Naifanchi and presumably another called Tenshi.
QUOTE
Bassai Dai is a shotokan Kata and Niafanchi is a Goju kata.
Naifanchi/Naihanchi is the fundamental Shorin kata, ie. the same lineage as Bassai. Its not a Goju kata.
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Is this due to the two styles having a common lineage?
There are many similarities between Naha-te (ie. the Goju/Uechi styles) and Shuri-te (the styles of Shorin/Shotokan etc.)
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And could we adapt the applications contained in one kata, to fit another kata, even though they`re of a different style?
My view is that if they are essentially the same movement then they can have essentially the same applications.
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Are these the only two kata to have these similarities - or are there more?
There are many kata but only a few salutation postures. So there must be repetition in different kata. Many katas have similarities, not only within the Naha-te and Shuri-te systems but also between the two systems katas. There is even Seisan kata, different versions of which are practiced in both traditions. But even within one system you can see the same themes expressed in different kata.
Mike
Thanks for the info Mike, I must confess to not doing much research before posting this, having only come across the Naifanchi kata a couple of weeks previously at a Goju Seminar.
But I'm happy to be put right
Would I be right in saying that the Salutation posture is the first move in the kata? ( or the second, if we count the bow )
Would there be applications contained within these postures, or are they purely ceremonial?
But I'm happy to be put right
Would I be right in saying that the Salutation posture is the first move in the kata? ( or the second, if we count the bow )
Would there be applications contained within these postures, or are they purely ceremonial?
QUOTE (WombatOneSix @ Nov 21 2005, 03:14 AM)
Would I be right in saying that the Salutation posture is the first move in the kata? ( or the second, if we count the bow )
That's right. There are only about half a dozen different salutations amongst all the kata as far as I'm aware, and some of these are simply variations on the same theme.
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Would there be applications contained within these postures, or are they purely ceremonial?
I believe they are meant to have practical applications. Some people consider them to have only ceremonial/ritualistic or even religious meanings.
I'm open to the idea that the 'sun & moon' posture for example (left open hand enclosing the right fist) has symbolic meaning but I also believe it to indicate a practical technique. But I certainly don't believe that any of the karate salutations indicate anything about moving your sword out of the way or anything like that.
Mike
I can see where you`re coming from with the "sun & moon" posture Mike. Look at how it can turn into the supposed reinforced block in Bassai Dai.
But "Religious meanings" in karate? Thats a whole new ball game! Maybe worthy of consideration...
Everything in Kata has a practical application, otherwise it wouldn't be there.
But "Religious meanings" in karate? Thats a whole new ball game! Maybe worthy of consideration...
Everything in Kata has a practical application, otherwise it wouldn't be there.
Not convinced its a reinforced block, more likely a... um how to say it... restraining break-hold?? Visualising being grabbed in yoi then rotating your attackers grip and holding them while the right hand pushes down on their wrist causing some degree of discomfort?
just thinking out loud... wheres my receptionist so I can test the theory
just thinking out loud... wheres my receptionist so I can test the theory
QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 21 2005, 09:49 AM)
Not convinced its a reinforced block, more likely a... um how to say it... restraining break-hold?? Visualising being grabbed in yoi then rotating your attackers grip and holding them while the right hand pushes down on their wrist causing some degree of discomfort?
just thinking out loud... wheres my receptionist so I can test the theory
just thinking out loud... wheres my receptionist so I can test the theory
This move has a number of uses. But really I'm thinking just about the yoi position, not what the hands do immediately after. Although seeing as the two postures are very similar (in terms of what the hands are doing) I can accept some possible degree of crossover in terms of application.
Mike
QUOTE (WombatOneSix @ Nov 20 2005, 07:45 PM)
I can see where you`re coming from with the "sun & moon" posture Mike. Look at how it can turn into the supposed reinforced block in Bassai Dai.
This is great as an entry technique, before the fight has even really started. For example as a wrist manipulation if the attacker is threatening or grabbing hold you you with their left hand, ready to pummel you with their right hand.
Oh and here's some info I thought you might like.
QUOTE
Bowing with Fists
Clenched fist bowing is not common in the traditional Japanese martial arts. This may differ with some of the arts derived from Okinawa. There are exceptions, however. The Sumo performs a clenched fist bow before he begins his attack. In some forms of Kenjutsu and Kempo, practitioners, at times, will kneel on one knee (hizamazuke dachi) and will place a fist on the floor as a form of acknowledgement or salute.
In some forms of Gung Fu, one can observe the participants to place one open hand over the other clenched fist hand. Some have said this is the "velvet glove" covering the "iron fist." It has been held that the hand over the fist originally comes from the fall of the Ming Dynasty. Ming means "sun and moon" and the hand formation of hand over the fist looks like a moon over the sun.
Originally this gesticulation was seen in Triads and used during Yellow Boxer Uprising. Later, it was adopted by Gung Fu exponents as a salutation to the times of good rule. Shoalin monks practiced this form of salutation from the period when their monastery was burnt down by persons who opposed Ming rule. The culprits of this act were persons who did not like the monks as the monks were Ming supporters and had some measure of influence.
Clenched fist bowing is not common in the traditional Japanese martial arts. This may differ with some of the arts derived from Okinawa. There are exceptions, however. The Sumo performs a clenched fist bow before he begins his attack. In some forms of Kenjutsu and Kempo, practitioners, at times, will kneel on one knee (hizamazuke dachi) and will place a fist on the floor as a form of acknowledgement or salute.
In some forms of Gung Fu, one can observe the participants to place one open hand over the other clenched fist hand. Some have said this is the "velvet glove" covering the "iron fist." It has been held that the hand over the fist originally comes from the fall of the Ming Dynasty. Ming means "sun and moon" and the hand formation of hand over the fist looks like a moon over the sun.
Originally this gesticulation was seen in Triads and used during Yellow Boxer Uprising. Later, it was adopted by Gung Fu exponents as a salutation to the times of good rule. Shoalin monks practiced this form of salutation from the period when their monastery was burnt down by persons who opposed Ming rule. The culprits of this act were persons who did not like the monks as the monks were Ming supporters and had some measure of influence.
http://www.shitoryu.org/heritage/bowing.htm
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Jan 8 2006, 05:42 AM)
QUOTE
Bowing with Fists
Originally this gesticulation was seen in Triads and used during Yellow Boxer Uprising. Later, it was adopted by Gung Fu exponents as a salutation to the times of good rule. Shoalin monks practiced this form of salutation from the period when their monastery was burnt down by persons who opposed Ming rule. The culprits of this act were persons who did not like the monks as the monks were Ming supporters and had some measure of influence.
Originally this gesticulation was seen in Triads and used during Yellow Boxer Uprising. Later, it was adopted by Gung Fu exponents as a salutation to the times of good rule. Shoalin monks practiced this form of salutation from the period when their monastery was burnt down by persons who opposed Ming rule. The culprits of this act were persons who did not like the monks as the monks were Ming supporters and had some measure of influence.
http://www.shitoryu.org/heritage/bowing.htm
Maybe it is simply a gesture of unity or defiance? Or as a tribute to the nice treatment the monks got during the Ming dynasty (which they didn't get after it came down)?
*sigh*
I still can't figure if it's meant to be useful or symbolic. Maybe it was originally intended to be symbolic and someone decided to get all mystical and hint that there was a hidden meaning, or it was intended to have an application and someone got spiritual and decided it had an historical tributary significance....... need coffee.
The problem with analysing kata is that it has been altered and adapted so much over time. The applications are gleaned by reverse engineering today, and let's face it some people are better than others at that!
Take Tekki Shodan. In Shotokan we just place the two hands together, no messing, perhaps because Tekki is the Japanese adaptation of the kata, and the Japanese were not interested in the combat applications of the kata it was more about the exercise and other more esoteric benefits. Furthermore the Japanese tend to be a more meticulous and structured people. However when we look to Naihanchi the yoi is a lot more flowery, with the hand folding over themselves before pointing down.
When we reverse engineer the two moves it comes up with two very different applications, and yet they are nothing more than variations on a theme, the source is the same. Naihanchi works as a very nice head tuck, adding many angles, which forces the opponent away from you (and gives you a chance to run). This to me makes more sense as the start to a kata - a start of a fight, before the fists even start flying you deal with the opponent in a non-striking manner and get the chance to avoid conflict. If you reverse engineer Tekki then it is more likely to look like a strike down into the stomach. This does not tie in with the whole "Karate ni sente nashi" idea either.
Take Tekki Shodan. In Shotokan we just place the two hands together, no messing, perhaps because Tekki is the Japanese adaptation of the kata, and the Japanese were not interested in the combat applications of the kata it was more about the exercise and other more esoteric benefits. Furthermore the Japanese tend to be a more meticulous and structured people. However when we look to Naihanchi the yoi is a lot more flowery, with the hand folding over themselves before pointing down.
When we reverse engineer the two moves it comes up with two very different applications, and yet they are nothing more than variations on a theme, the source is the same. Naihanchi works as a very nice head tuck, adding many angles, which forces the opponent away from you (and gives you a chance to run). This to me makes more sense as the start to a kata - a start of a fight, before the fists even start flying you deal with the opponent in a non-striking manner and get the chance to avoid conflict. If you reverse engineer Tekki then it is more likely to look like a strike down into the stomach. This does not tie in with the whole "Karate ni sente nashi" idea either.
Dumb it down a bit please.
By 'reverse engineer' I take it you mean look at the moves and try and work out what they are? If thats incorrect then what are we supposed to do?
By 'reverse engineer' I take it you mean look at the moves and try and work out what they are? If thats incorrect then what are we supposed to do?
QUOTE (Wanderer @ Feb 26 2006, 04:38 PM)
Dumb it down a bit please.
By 'reverse engineer' I take it you mean look at the moves and try and work out what they are? If thats incorrect then what are we supposed to do?
By 'reverse engineer' I take it you mean look at the moves and try and work out what they are? If thats incorrect then what are we supposed to do?
Yes, that's exactly what is meant by reverse engineering. There's not a lot most styles can do about this, as the original meanings have been lost over time. Some Okinawan styles claim to be still studying the original applications which have been passed down with the kata. To be honest I take this with a pinch of salt. However it may be true. Reverse engineering is the best that most styles (especially Japanese) can hope to do, but as I said some people are better at it then others.
There are still too many people out there teaching nonsense applications.
I'm always at ready steady yoi, but my sensei likes to throw dry humour at everyone in my class, and yes! I laugh too so much that i'm not at yoi no more! 
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