Ok, thanks Mike.

Hi Mike,

You nearly have the application I advocated for Pleb. The right hand would sweep a left handed attack away and the left would seize and unbalance, etc. as you posted. However the target would not usually be anything other the head. and then an arm bar or an arm entanglement if the other hand had struck.

Pleb,

Bassai Dai after 5 months??? I'm not sure what benefit you would get out of it.

Cheers,
Boz

Sorry Boz but i don't think it's up to pleb to decide on when to learn the kata....

Bassai Dai is learnt very early on in the syllabus of GKR. I was taught after just 2 months...

doesnt mean i understood it or still do now after 5 years of learning it, but hey... its the clubs decision as to where its placed in gradings...

Hi Susan,

Oh I didn't realise that.

Thanks,
Boz

Boz, its called enjoyment

(breathe, Boz, breathe )

I think that's unusual.... It was about 12 months before I started it and am glad for that. Had my hands full with enough kata at that stage..

Thing is, I really like doing kata. Its a fantatic way of putting basics into a routine that not only looks great, it feels great to do, and it gets the cogs of my mind ticking. In one of the dojo's I attend there are quite a few higher grades and every so often we run through all the katas on the syllabus. Low grades such as myself are given the oppertunity to either tag along as best we can or sit out. I tag along.
I've payed to attend. I've payed to be shown. I've payed to learn.
On friday I'll be asking my Sensai, the one who taught me Bassai Dai, if he will teach me Seiunchin.

In closing, I enjoy my karate very much and desire to know more and do more. Just as I wouldnt want inferiour food if I'd pay to go out for a quality meal, neither would I want watered down tuition in the dojo..

I would like to thank you though Boz, you've made me realise that Bassai Dai shouldnt be taken as lightly as I've been taking it. Thank you all for your input into this matter....

My second question is simply,....

Why does the left fist rest ontop of the right. and vice versa the top fist, palm side towards you and the lower fist, palm side up over. What is the significance?

I get the feeling that the lower fist is as such 'cause thats the fist that is in chamber. But what about the other one?

Hi Pleb,

Part 1- I'm glad you enjoy karate. I really enjoy teaching karate and the best part for me is teaching quality karate.

Part 2- Matt I am breathing, and not fire

Part 3- Your second question is retty easy and one for your paid instructor to answer!

Cheers,
Boz

Good advice, Boz, I will indeed ask my instructor. I'll also offer the question here for who should desire to answer it... Interesting to see a diversity in opinions.

Tell you what, why not tell us what your instructor offers for this move and I'm sure Boz and/or myself will chip in with our thoughts. I'll have to ponder it a day or two first - I don't do the same version as you so there are some significant differences at this point in the kata, I'll need to think a little about your version.

Mike

Alright, Mike, I'll ask my Sensei tonight.

I might have thought for a double punch it might have been better to have both hands in chamber first. But I'm sure there is some wisdom behind this move.

What style do you do, if I may ask, Mike??

Ah, its ok Mike, I caught a glimps of the link beneath your post. Looks good

Nope, he couldnt offer an answer. Next time I see the regional manager I'll ask him.
How does your style perform this move, Mike?

Will have to get back to you in a few days I'm afraid. I'm in the middle of moving house and about to lose my internet connection. I'll get back to when I'm up and running again. Til then...

Mike

There is no rush for a responce, its not like I need to know.

I hope your move goes smoothly, good luck.

I agree with you that the bottom hand is chambered ready for a punch. Whenever you come a bit in the kata where the hands are positioned in this way, the bottom hand always punches.

Now since your unpaid volunteer instructor doesn't know the explanation for the open handed movement, I would agree with mike and boz that it is a block, which is concurrent with the same move found in another kata (don't know it's name). The subsequent grab and pull in makes good sense as well.

For the bits where we seemingly do double punches, you should read back through this thread, and goto the karate.org.yu link I posted somewhere. My current favorite application is the catch-leg-and-throw.

I agree with you all about the open hand block, its just, in GKR, well, the way I'm tought anyway, it's rather slow. Hence I question it.

But yeah, I'll look throught the thread to seek the answers for the double punch.

Thanks Bradt

Hi Brad,
I think perhaps you should consider the move before the 'double punch'. Ideally if you could check out the same kata in a different style or better still an older version.

Cheers,
Boz

Well I have downloaded two versions of passai so far. In one both hands are chambered like punches would be, on either side of the body, and the hips are always square to the opponent. In the other version the hands come to the hip as in the GKR version but the hips and shoulders are turned 90 deg. away as well.

In both versions there is little suggesting a special purpose for this retracting move, it still seems like a preparation move to me. I wish I cold tell you where these videos came from but I can't remember I've had them on my CPU a while.

Is this the move you're talking about?

Hi Brad,

I think it is pretty hard to work out yet it is a common rsponse to being seized by the shoulder.

Cheers,Boz

Prior to the slow move where the left open hand sweeps across? I don't do this in the version of Passai that I practice, but we do have similar movements elsewhere in kata.

Firstly I'm forced to pour scorn on the idea of a fist being in chamber ready for a punch (although I appreciate that this is what is frequently taught in karate classes). I know I've said it before but I simply don't buy the idea that one should put the fist at the hip before punching. I can't see how it really helps with power development but, from a tactical point of view, it is certainly a bad idea. You should be able to punch with your hand starting anywhere, but the default starting point should be with the hand in front of you in a guard. All too often I see karateka pull their hand back from this position, towards the hip, before punching. All they're really achieving is:
1. leaving their head unguarded
2. slowing the punch down
3. telegraphing the punch

So why else take the fist to the hip, or in this case why take both fists to one hip? For me its primarily about drawing the hands in - generating power by drawing both to the same hip simultaneously, combined with the ubiquitous forearm rotation. How does one apply the power generated? By grabbing (or striking/pinning) a part of the assailant's body and drawing it to your hip. Your intention could simply be to break their balance and control their movement, or to strike (close range back towards yourself) or to pull/twist a joint and thereby damage it. There are lots of parts of the opponents body you could strike/grab/pull/twist to good effect in this manner.

Mike

i've been doing baassai dai since the begining of the year and each time i perform it, gets better and better each time, but in my personal opinion i find doing bassai dai is a quite a tight kata to do, compared to other kata's and its so long to perform.

A question: Bassai Dai is the kata that all the brown's and brown singles/ doubles to all the brown single/ double reds do, why does it stretch over five belts.

Well at least come grading i know excatly what kata to do, after so many different heians before hand

You dont think such a complex kata requires such a long time to study?

Oh yeah definetly matt but in my club we have done so many other black belt kata's that i so would love to learn more and more, i know that there a such saying called "one thing at a time" but i absolulty love karate to the max, its the best thing that as happened to me in my life time, its my niche that i've finally found after looking for 10 years, obviesly i'm very enthusiastic about it all

Just for interest sake - which club do you train with Emma?

Hi Emma,
What hata have you studied so far?

Boz

Just for interest sake - which club do you train with Emma?


I train at a club in milton keynes- uk

Hi Emma,
What hata have you studied so far?

Boz

(i know) and i have done all the kata's up to Bassai Dai, at my club, we practice black belt kata's we've done Jion, Kanku Dai, Bassai Sho, Sochin, Nijushiho etc

Hi Emma,

That's a lot of kata but you say you love it so good luck and happy training.

Cheers,
Boz

Boz, what did you mean by, but you say?

Hi Emma,

I just meant that if you enjoy learning lots of kata then that is fine. I have a different view of karate and see kata as a tool to learn karate rather than a formal exercise for preformance. I've learned though that people enjoy different aspects of karate so as long as one is happy there is no problem :0

Cheers,
Boz

sorry Boz i didn't quite understand what you ment, its very difficult to read throught the words etc in this heat. arrgh my head, it feels like its melting

apparently shihan says that you grab the attacker on you blind side when you snap the head and then cresent kick to the opponents head. extending in a straight line makes the kata look tidy is all, its not 100% how you would actually excecute the technique. eg: mawashi uke is performed totally different to how you would actually excecute the technique.

Whilst I agree that the way a technique is done in kata is seldom how the actual application works, I find it difficult to believe in a real fight scenario someone would actually do this.

In a Jet Li film perhaps, but not in reality.

Mmm have to agree with Wanderer there. It's not much use if they're too tall to be able to kick in the head?


Are you sure you mean mawashi uke? The waving-the-arms-around-in-circles (for want of a better description) block? The way we use it in application is not really so different to the way we practice the technique itself. I'd be interested to know how you use it?


Mick

And if you don't use a technique the way you perform it, why perform it that way? why not just perform it the way you would use it????

Hi Susan,

That's a very good question! If we take Bassai Dai as an example, then I have a book with 9 versions in it and the later edition of this book was expanded to 11. These were both Okinawan and Japanese versions back in the 60's or 70's. Imagine how many versions there are now!

Now to answer your question-

Well for most of us, the kata is taught in a particular way in a school and we have no say in how it is to be performed. Even if we did without understanding the purpose of the kata, what would we change it to? Something cool we had seen someone else do or something that looks flashier that might score more points in a competition, hang on.. what about making it easier to teach, i.e. dumb it down!

What if we were lucky enough to have a teacher show us what it meant. We might discover that there may be a way to utilise the same set of movements against an attacker attacking with either the left or the right limb. We might find that a certain blck such as mawashi uke can be used against a push, punch or grab. If we change it to suit a grab it might be misleading for future generations of students when they go on to become teachers.


Some quick thoughts anyway,
Boz

I get that Boz...

I asked the question not as a kata technique cos we all know that kta can be 'read' in different ways depending on circumstances etc....

BUT the question was directed at GKRstormer's views on learning techniques a different way that they would be used... as is basics...



why would you learn mawashi uke one way but perform it a different way? why not learn it the way you would perform it....

i'm also with Mick... how does gkrstormer use mawashi uke to make it different to how it's learned...

Hi Susan,

OK sorry I didn't address that one. What can anyone say though.. karate is generally taught poorly IMO.

Boz

Hey no probs boz...

Your answer teaches some points I may not have understood fully anyways.. so it all helps...


Still waiting to hear how GKRstormer has been taught to perform the technique and also how it is actually used...

I've been taught many ways of using mawashi uke and always thought why do it this way and use it that way??? until i was shown a way of using it that actually does mimic the performance of it... made me realise the rest of the uses were.... well.... someones imagination running wild.