OK I've been practicing Bassai Dai for 10 months now and Ifeel I know a great deal about the kata but there is one part of the kata (GKR BTW)) which does not seem to have an application, but merely appears to be a transitional movement.
THE MOVEMENT: You execute a crescent kick and then step down into kiba dachi, executing a bedan barai/tetsui (depending on your interpretation). You look around and bring the hands up in front and then extend the left hand out in a semi circle. This is followed by a crescent kick to the hand. Now my RM stipulates that the left arm should extend before it moves out to the side, and the right hand closes as it comes down.
Now, the right hand I interpret as preparing for the empi which follows soon after, but I can't think of any reason why the left arm would extend the way it does. My sensei's chosen application for the succeeding crescent kick is simply a blow to the bodypart grasped by the hand, but you don't grab something by backhanding it, do you?
Is there a way the move can be interpreted, possibly not using GKR's version?
Full Version: Bassai Dai question
Maybe the left hand is supposed to be a block - like a mid level kake uke (sp?).
You then turn it into a hold (grab them by the wrist to stop them jumping back) and then crescent kick to the groin or stomach, and follow with the right elbow to the head.
That is just a quick though as i'm only starting on bassai dai.
cheers
andy G
EDIT - perhaps it looks stronger if you are hitting something other than just fresh air ?? hence hitting the palm for both strikes
You then turn it into a hold (grab them by the wrist to stop them jumping back) and then crescent kick to the groin or stomach, and follow with the right elbow to the head.
That is just a quick though as i'm only starting on bassai dai.
cheers
andy G
EDIT - perhaps it looks stronger if you are hitting something other than just fresh air ?? hence hitting the palm for both strikes
Perhaps you are grabbing your opponents shoulder to unbalance them, and the crescent kick is in fact a sweep?
QUOTE
Perhaps you are grabbing your opponents shoulder to unbalance them, and the crescent kick is in fact a sweep?
I Like that one.
Maybe I'm being tedious, but I'm still curious about why the hands come up in front before the left extends out to the side, and why the RIGHT hand is on the top when the arms meet.
The behaviour of the right hand in this move just baffles me completely.
That part does not appear in e.g. the Shito-Ryu version of Bassai Dai though the crescent kick/elbow strike following does. Perhaps that modification was made just for show and doesn't do anything special?
Mick
Mick
QUOTE (bradt @ Oct 24 2005, 11:04 AM) 
THE MOVEMENT: You execute a crescent kick and then step down into kiba dachi, executing a bedan barai/tetsui (depending on your interpretation). You look around and bring the hands up in front and then extend the left hand out in a semi circle. This is followed by a crescent kick to the hand. Now my RM stipulates that the left arm should extend before it moves out to the side, and the right hand closes as it comes down.
As Mick indicated the first crescent kick is spurious – presumably a modern GKR addition?
QUOTE
Now, the right hand I interpret as preparing for the empi which follows soon after,
Chuck that idea in the bin unless you enjoy picking your teeth up with a broken arm! It sounds like telegraphing the elbow technique to me – a sure recipe for disaster.
QUOTE
but I can't think of any reason why the left arm would extend the way it does. My sensei's chosen application for the succeeding crescent kick is simply a blow to the bodypart grasped by the hand, but you don't grab something by backhanding it, do you?
Application here partly depends on how you’re hands chamber for the back hand sweeping movement. The back hand slap could be a strike to the angle of the jaw or the occiput, whilst the right hand holds and secures the attacker’s left wrist.
Alternatively, if you cross your arms as you raise them prior to the back-hand, then you could interpret this as mawashi-uke. Capture the left wrist with your left hand – don’t always be so literal, just because the arm sweeps across with an open hand doesn’t mean it can’t grab at the end of the movement.
From either starting point, follow up with the crescent kick to the thigh (it doesn’t have to strike with the heel, even the shin is fine as long as you stay balanced and you can sink your energy into the attacker’s leg. As they drop grab the head with your left hand and elbow it with your right.
Mike
Those concepts definitely deserve some thought while I'm practicing the kata pattern.
May I be frank here. The problem is that if the kata has been mangled with no understanding of the principles/bunkai behind the original moves then you may well lead to having spurious moves with no sensible applications behind them.
In the version I do the crescent kick is in fact a knee raise. The swift 180 degree turn into this with a gedan barai translates nicely into a throw with a rather unpleasant knee up into the leg/groin (depending on how far they turn) during the throw. I've not seen this knee being done as a mikazukigeri before, and I think the clue to the fact that this has been altered is in the fact that there is no contact made with the hand, as there is on the next crescent kick. Similarly I have seen that the bit with the yamazuki seems to have been changed into a crescent kick rather than a knee.
The extended arm can be used as a great way to unbalance someone. The hikite hand is holding one of their arms whilst the other arm sweeps out across their chest / throat. The hand should be kept palm down until the end when the change in direction, bringing the palm facing forwards, really adds the bar. You can then let the attacker drop if you wish; Alternatively at this point you could grab their head a kick though the knee. The crescent kick will never reach your hand as their body is in the way but if you attempt to put the kick up there, instead of focusing on their knee then you will do more damage.
Hope this makes sense.
In the version I do the crescent kick is in fact a knee raise. The swift 180 degree turn into this with a gedan barai translates nicely into a throw with a rather unpleasant knee up into the leg/groin (depending on how far they turn) during the throw. I've not seen this knee being done as a mikazukigeri before, and I think the clue to the fact that this has been altered is in the fact that there is no contact made with the hand, as there is on the next crescent kick. Similarly I have seen that the bit with the yamazuki seems to have been changed into a crescent kick rather than a knee.
The extended arm can be used as a great way to unbalance someone. The hikite hand is holding one of their arms whilst the other arm sweeps out across their chest / throat. The hand should be kept palm down until the end when the change in direction, bringing the palm facing forwards, really adds the bar. You can then let the attacker drop if you wish; Alternatively at this point you could grab their head a kick though the knee. The crescent kick will never reach your hand as their body is in the way but if you attempt to put the kick up there, instead of focusing on their knee then you will do more damage.
Hope this makes sense.
Hi Angela,
Boz
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Nov 9 2005, 07:08 AM)
May I be frank here. The problem is that if the kata has been mangled with no understanding of the principles/bunkai behind the original moves then you may well lead to having spurious moves with no sensible applications behind them.
In the version I do the crescent kick is in fact a knee raise. The swift 180 degree turn into this with a gedan barai translates nicely into a throw with a rather unpleasant knee up into the leg/groin (depending on how far they turn) during the throw. I've not seen this knee being done as a mikazukigeri before, and I think the clue to the fact that this has been altered is in the fact that there is no contact made with the hand, as there is on the next crescent kick. Similarly I have seen that the bit with the yamazuki seems to have been changed into a crescent kick rather than a knee.
The extended arm can be used as a great way to unbalance someone. The hikite hand is holding one of their arms whilst the other arm sweeps out across their chest / throat. The hand should be kept palm down until the end when the change in direction, bringing the palm facing forwards, really adds the bar.
You can then let the attacker drop if you wish; Alternatively at this point you could grab their head a kick though the knee. The crescent kick will never reach your hand as their body is in the way but if you attempt to put the kick up there, instead of focusing on their knee then you will do more damage.
Hope this makes sense.
QUOTE
No attack but the modern Shotokan versions are far different from its predecessors such as Matsumura Passai.
In the version I do the crescent kick is in fact a knee raise. The swift 180 degree turn into this with a gedan barai translates nicely into a throw with a rather unpleasant knee up into the leg/groin (depending on how far they turn) during the throw. I've not seen this knee being done as a mikazukigeri before, and I think the clue to the fact that this has been altered is in the fact that there is no contact made with the hand, as there is on the next crescent kick. Similarly I have seen that the bit with the yamazuki seems to have been changed into a crescent kick rather than a knee.
QUOTE
The raised knee in both instances is a modern movement bolted on. Some would see that as mangling the kata, etc. also.
The extended arm can be used as a great way to unbalance someone. The hikite hand is holding one of their arms whilst the other arm sweeps out across their chest / throat. The hand should be kept palm down until the end when the change in direction, bringing the palm facing forwards, really adds the bar.
QUOTE
You have to then assume that your attacker is a real dum dum. Yes you could perform this on a compliant partner in the dojo but how does this relate to the kata, specifically from the previous move you said was a throw? How did you get to hold the other arm in hikite? What does the attacker need to know to help you make this work? I'm not being sarcastic here rather I'm trying to make a point. The attack and the attacker don't seem to be considered in your analysis of these moves in kata.
You can then let the attacker drop if you wish; Alternatively at this point you could grab their head a kick though the knee. The crescent kick will never reach your hand as their body is in the way but if you attempt to put the kick up there, instead of focusing on their knee then you will do more damage.
QUOTE
You can or could is often mentioned in fanciful bunkai; I look at these offerings and ask will or would you do that?
Hope this makes sense.
QUOTE
To be frank, no, not to me.
Boz
I know that Shotokan Bassai has been adapted from Passai or Patsai, however I would also suggest that at that time there was still an understanding of what the kata was about.
Yes there are moves in there I would use. No they don't necessarily all work as one massive sequence but then you try and fit an entire kata into a one attack sequence. If you haven't dealt with an attacker within a couple of moves from kata than IMO there is something flawed in the bunkai. The attacker doesn’t need to “know” anything; the defender needs to understand how balance points and/or joint locks work.
And if you don't know how to get hikite using shift/parry and principles such as kake and muchimi then to be blunt I question your abilities.
And to be honest you seem to have a big problem with me and I'm quite fed up with it and your curmudgeonly attitude with me.
You can or could take this as you wish.
Yes there are moves in there I would use. No they don't necessarily all work as one massive sequence but then you try and fit an entire kata into a one attack sequence. If you haven't dealt with an attacker within a couple of moves from kata than IMO there is something flawed in the bunkai. The attacker doesn’t need to “know” anything; the defender needs to understand how balance points and/or joint locks work.
And if you don't know how to get hikite using shift/parry and principles such as kake and muchimi then to be blunt I question your abilities.
And to be honest you seem to have a big problem with me and I'm quite fed up with it and your curmudgeonly attitude with me.
You can or could take this as you wish.
Hi Angela,
Cheers,
boz
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Nov 9 2005, 08:42 AM)
I know that Shotokan Bassai has been adapted from Passai or Patsai, however I would also suggest that at that time there was still an understanding of what the kata was about.
Yes there are moves in there I would use. No they don't necessarily all work as one massive sequence but then you try and fit an entire kata into a one attack sequence. If you haven't dealt with an attacker within a couple of moves from kata than IMO there is something flawed in the bunkai. The attacker doesn’t need to “know” anything; the defender needs to understand how balance points and/or joint locks work.
And if you don't know how to get hikite using shift/parry and principles such as kake and muchimi then to be blunt I question your abilities.
And to be honest you seem to have a big problem with me and I'm quite fed up with it and your curmudgeonly attitude with me. You can or could take this as you wish.
QUOTE
Well if you look back at the early texts on kata application produced by the JKA and others, the bunkai as presented was generally karate vs karate and not focused as self defense. Funakoshi didn't teach bunkai in the Uni classes and the head honcho's of shotokan, such as Nakayama had little training time with him and were young men then practising a PE Karate program.
Yes there are moves in there I would use. No they don't necessarily all work as one massive sequence but then you try and fit an entire kata into a one attack sequence. If you haven't dealt with an attacker within a couple of moves from kata than IMO there is something flawed in the bunkai. The attacker doesn’t need to “know” anything; the defender needs to understand how balance points and/or joint locks work.
QUOTE
You missed the point I was trying to make. In your applications you tended to ignore the role any attacker plays in the situation. Kata allows you to practise your karate techniques both solo, and in sequence, and suggests examples of how techniques can be applied. The application needs to include an attacker and needs to be practised with a partner. In explaining an application, its best to describe the attack the defender is responding to, IMO.
And if you don't know how to get hikite using shift/parry and principles such as kake and muchimi then to be blunt I question your abilities.
QUOTE
Good for you, and so you should. Hikite is often misrepresented as pulling an attacker in. In kata it is know as 'yoshiki' (see I know karate terms too 
One function of hikite is to pull an opponent/attacker off balance but it is also a place to position the other arm for purposes of aesthetics. Also I'm very familiar with mawashi uke and its uses in controlling the other guy
One function of hikite is to pull an opponent/attacker off balance but it is also a place to position the other arm for purposes of aesthetics. Also I'm very familiar with mawashi uke and its uses in controlling the other guy And to be honest you seem to have a big problem with me and I'm quite fed up with it and your curmudgeonly attitude with me. You can or could take this as you wish.
QUOTE
Ah I've got a thick skin and so should you if you are quizzed on your comments. I'm sorry that I was a bit harsh in earlier comments in another thread, but in this thread I have merely sort to have you buttress your argument. No offense was intended, I was merely being frank as you were yourself.
Cheers,
boz
Isn't it a good thing some people are separated by hundreds of kilometres of telphone cable.
QUOTE
You missed the point I was trying to make. In your applications you tended to ignore the role any attacker plays in the situation. Kata allows you to practise your karate techniques both solo, and in sequence, and suggests examples of how techniques can be applied. The application needs to include an attacker and needs to be practised with a partner. In explaining an application, its best to describe the attack the defender is responding to, IMO.
Excuse me, but is this paragraph not just "stating the obvious". Everything we do is practiced with a partner. At first with a compliant partner and gradually working up the resistances until the principles are correct and the move works. If the move does not work it is discarded, I'm not going to be practicing flawed moves for the sake of collecting applications. Instead of looking at applications from a specific attack I also think that the defender needs to be thinking about their position in regards to the attacker, and how they can (if they can) make the appplication work from there. Making up set pieces based on specific attacks is foolhardy and will lead to the defender being unable to cope if the situations changes.
QUOTE
Good for you, and so you should. Hikite is often misrepresented as pulling an attacker in. In kata it is know as 'yoshiki' (see I know karate terms too One function of hikite is to pull an opponent/attacker off balance but it is also a place to position the other arm for purposes of aesthetics. Also I'm very familiar with mawashi uke and its uses in controlling the other guy
As for the hikite being aesthetic, perhaps in basics or kumite, but in a self defence situation I couldn't disagree more. If you are training yourself to drop your guard you had better train yourself to do something with it, otherwise you are going to get your face flattened. If you are training with a partner and hikite is not required then don't drill it. However I suspect that any kata (at least of an old lineage) that has a move with hikite also has an application where hikite is required.
I' forgot to mention it in my last post, but I've been practising the move by itself, using the idea that the move is a sweep and then elbow. A sensei whom I train with at senior training introduced me to a practical way to sweep, and I have been practising the move with some friends at my local dojo, with surprisng results. By grabbing the opponent by the shirt (anywhere on the shirt) and then viciously sweeping the leg, the other person is unbalanced by the loss of the support and your added weight. Then you can drop down into kiba dachi and pull your hand in, pulling their body towards you for a round elbow strike into the head, stomach, back, neck, whatever you want.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.
PS: What do you know, it even included some hikite/yoshiki as well . Maybe it has some muchimi and kake as well, but I have no bloody idea what they are.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.
PS: What do you know, it even included some hikite/yoshiki as well
. Maybe it has some muchimi and kake as well, but I have no bloody idea what they are.
QUOTE (bradt @ Nov 9 2005, 12:03 PM)
PS: What do you know, it even included some hikite/yoshiki as well . Maybe it has some muchimi and kake as well, but I have no bloody idea what they are.
. Maybe it has some muchimi and kake as well, but I have no bloody idea what they are.Muchimi - sticky hands
Kake (in this context) - Hooking
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Nov 9 2005, 05:24 PM)
Excuse me, but is this paragraph not just "stating the obvious". Everything we do is practiced with a partner. At first with a compliant partner and gradually working up the resistances until the principles are correct and the move works. If the move does not work it is discarded,
I'm not going to be practicing flawed moves for the sake of collecting applications. Instead of looking at applications from a specific attack I also think that the defender needs to be thinking about their position in regards to the attacker, and how they can (if they can) make the appplication work from there. Making up set pieces based on specific attacks is foolhardy and will lead to the defender being unable to cope if the situations changes.
As for the hikite being aesthetic, perhaps in basics or kumite,
but in a self defence situation I couldn't disagree more. If you are training yourself to drop your guard you had better train yourself to do something with it, otherwise you are going to get your face flattened. If you are training with a partner and hikite is not required then don't drill it. However I suspect that any kata (at least of an old lineage) that has a move with hikite also has an application where hikite is required.
QUOTE
When I read your descriptions of applications your focus appeared to be on what you could do to an attacker with the move. No need to explain your training methods, the point I must be making badly is that if you are to give a specific application (or response) then it would be easier to 'see' what you mean if you gave an example of an attack. But if that s too difficult then no worries.
I'm not going to be practicing flawed moves for the sake of collecting applications. Instead of looking at applications from a specific attack I also think that the defender needs to be thinking about their position in regards to the attacker, and how they can (if they can) make the appplication work from there. Making up set pieces based on specific attacks is foolhardy and will lead to the defender being unable to cope if the situations changes.
QUOTE
If your flawed moves or applications aren't working then perhaps you should review your principles! I find that my applications will work against a number of specific attacks as well as general attacks of that nature. I use mawashi uke against a great many attacks both in SD and in sparring but we need to practise how to respond to specific attacks as well.
Its difficult to visualize positioning oneself against an attacker when reading someone else's applications when they omit to mention what the attacker is doing. I think you need to practise how to use certain techniques against a number of possible attacks perculiar to your situation. They should be transferrable but how will you know that if you don't practise practical responses to specific types of and specific attacks?
Its difficult to visualize positioning oneself against an attacker when reading someone else's applications when they omit to mention what the attacker is doing. I think you need to practise how to use certain techniques against a number of possible attacks perculiar to your situation. They should be transferrable but how will you know that if you don't practise practical responses to specific types of and specific attacks?
QUOTE
Good for you, and so you should. Hikite is often misrepresented as pulling an attacker in. In kata it is know as 'yoshiki' (see I know karate terms too One function of hikite is to pull an opponent/attacker off balance but it is also a place to position the other arm for purposes of aesthetics. Also I'm very familiar with mawashi uke and its uses in controlling the other guy
As for the hikite being aesthetic, perhaps in basics or kumite,
QUOTE
Who in their right mind would keep their hand on their hip in kumite? If it is for aesthetic reasons in kihon then you are talking about how in kata one can postion the hand neatly when executing blocks and punches, etc. which I covered above.
but in a self defence situation I couldn't disagree more. If you are training yourself to drop your guard you had better train yourself to do something with it, otherwise you are going to get your face flattened. If you are training with a partner and hikite is not required then don't drill it. However I suspect that any kata (at least of an old lineage) that has a move with hikite also has an application where hikite is required.
Remembering that I was talking about the ( you refer to as hikite) position of the hand on the hip. Are you suggesting that every time you block or throw a punch in kata that when you are returning your hand to your hip it contains an attacker's body part of some description? You then go on to say something out of the blue about dropping your guard that must have some relation to the fist being positioned on the hip. The fist on the hip is a 'style' used in kata (yoshiki). You suspect that every time your hand goes back to your hip in kata that it must necessitate pulling someone off balance? Multiple punches would be difficult to analyse that way!
Anyway Angela, the forum is for discussion and not for making personal attacks when someone challenges ones assumptions. I know you think I'm attacking you but I'm not meaning to, I'm simply playing the ball and not the person. I'm happy to discuss the issues so if you can find a way to leave the personal attacks out of it, I would love to discuss Bassai Dai further.
cheers,
Boz
Where have I made a personal attack?
QUOTE (AngelaG @ Nov 9 2005, 07:08 AM)
In the version I do the crescent kick is in fact a knee raise. The swift 180 degree turn into this with a gedan barai translates nicely into a throw with a rather unpleasant knee up into the leg/groin (depending on how far they turn) during the throw. I've not seen this knee being done as a mikazukigeri before, and I think the clue to the fact that this has been altered is in the fact that there is no contact made with the hand, as there is on the next crescent kick. Similarly I have seen that the bit with the yamazuki seems to have been changed into a crescent kick rather than a knee.
There are a few variations on leg reaps which can be read out of the crescent kicks. Whether they are practical or not...
QUOTE
The extended arm can be used as a great way to unbalance someone. The hikite hand is holding one of their arms whilst the other arm sweeps out across their chest / throat. The hand should be kept palm down until the end when the change in direction, bringing the palm facing forwards, really adds the bar. You can then let the attacker drop if you wish; Alternatively at this point you could grab their head a kick though the knee. The crescent kick will never reach your hand as their body is in the way but if you attempt to put the kick up there, instead of focusing on their knee then you will do more damage.
Hope this makes sense.
Hope this makes sense.
Yes, I am familiar with this technique. A slight "rolling" action as in raising the hand like you're describing the top part of a circle is generally easier to apply in unbalancing someone than a straight extension.
Mick
There is another part of the kata which is puzzling (GKR version).
DECRIPTION: Standing feet together with hands at left hip, you step fowards into long fighting stance and perform a simultaeneous short punch (RH) and head punch (LH).
I find the move puzzling because in the way I've been taught, the RH short punch does not begin at the right hip, instead it begins at the left hip, which is a strange movement.
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
Any comments/suggestions on this move (and the two succeeding moves)?
DECRIPTION: Standing feet together with hands at left hip, you step fowards into long fighting stance and perform a simultaeneous short punch (RH) and head punch (LH).
I find the move puzzling because in the way I've been taught, the RH short punch does not begin at the right hip, instead it begins at the left hip, which is a strange movement.
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
Any comments/suggestions on this move (and the two succeeding moves)?
QUOTE (bradt @ Dec 8 2005, 08:46 PM)
There is another part of the kata which is puzzling (GKR version).
DECRIPTION: Standing feet together with hands at left hip, you step fowards into long fighting stance and perform a simultaeneous short punch (RH) and head punch (LH).
I find the move puzzling because in the way I've been taught, the RH short punch does not begin at the right hip, instead it begins at the left hip, which is a strange movement.
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
Any comments/suggestions on this move (and the two succeeding moves)?
DECRIPTION: Standing feet together with hands at left hip, you step fowards into long fighting stance and perform a simultaeneous short punch (RH) and head punch (LH).
I find the move puzzling because in the way I've been taught, the RH short punch does not begin at the right hip, instead it begins at the left hip, which is a strange movement.
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
Any comments/suggestions on this move (and the two succeeding moves)?
This theme can also be found in Passai Sho and Rohai. It’s done in different ways there, but its also done in a number of different ways in different versions of Passai Dai. The common element is that both hands are going forwards, but they might be both at the same height, one punch might be higher than the other, etc. In one version the higher hand is actually doing a rising block motion whilst the other is uppercutting. This should give you some ideas for bunkai. Also think about how and why the hands are going back to the hip.
One thing to bear in mind. If you do the movement with a big forward lean then, in my opinion, you’re practising a modern affectation to make the movement more dynamic. It has no place in practical application.
Mike
QUOTE
In one version the higher hand is actually doing a rising block motion whilst the other is uppercutting. This should give you some ideas for bunkai. Also think about how and why the hands are going back to the hip.
I haven't got that one to work well using the GKR starting point for the hands, and so far I have only thought of the retractio of the hands as 'reloading' for the next move.
QUOTE
One thing to bear in mind. If you do the movement with a big forward lean then, in my opinion, you’re practising a modern affectation to make the movement more dynamic. It has no place in practical application.
I agree in that a real attacker wouldn't throw a punch from that distance for you to step forward and block. Also, The stepping back up is slow no matter how energetic I am, and I agree that in a life/death situation stepping away after such a rapid counter attack wouldn't be practical (call it a wasted opportunity).
Hi Brad,
Cheers,
Boz
QUOTE (bradt @ Dec 8 2005, 07:46 PM)
There is another part of the kata which is puzzling (GKR version).
DECRIPTION: Standing feet together with hands at left hip, you step fowards into long fighting stance and perform a simultaeneous short punch (RH) and head punch (LH).
# Don't you do the first set after the elbow strike in kiba dachi.. I'm finally forgetting the Shotokan version
I find the move puzzling because in the way I've been taught, the RH short punch does not begin at the right hip, instead it begins at the left hip, which is a strange movement.
# That should tell you that in this kata, its not a punch/uppercut.
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
# How so? What is the attack scenario?
Any comments/suggestions on this move (and the two succeeding moves)?
# after the three sets of punches there is a turn which is a throw. Work backwards and see what you can come up with!
DECRIPTION: Standing feet together with hands at left hip, you step fowards into long fighting stance and perform a simultaeneous short punch (RH) and head punch (LH).
# Don't you do the first set after the elbow strike in kiba dachi.. I'm finally forgetting the Shotokan version
I find the move puzzling because in the way I've been taught, the RH short punch does not begin at the right hip, instead it begins at the left hip, which is a strange movement.
# That should tell you that in this kata, its not a punch/uppercut.
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
# How so? What is the attack scenario?
Any comments/suggestions on this move (and the two succeeding moves)?
# after the three sets of punches there is a turn which is a throw. Work backwards and see what you can come up with!
Cheers,
Boz
QUOTE
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
# How so? What is the attack scenario?
# How so? What is the attack scenario?
I'm not perticularly creative, my scenario is an attacker in front of you who throws a punch at my stomach and I block and counter at the same time. The step forward would not be as deep a step forward in my scenario. The punch could replaced by other attacks, but the punch is easiest to imagine.
Maybe the attack scenario is too specific, but I find this far better than a lunging double punch which, really, is poor technique in the way it is performed.
QUOTE
# after the three sets of punches there is a turn which is a throw. Work backwards and see what you can come up with!
Wow, that's a far cry than the application generally accepted by GKR. I'm curious as to what I can come up with.
Hi Brad,
Think about how someone might attack you! Who would try and punch you in the stomach? I think someone might have grabbed you with their left hand and may be thinking about punching you in the face with their right hand. You could lock up their left arm and punch or intercept their right hand with your left.
If it breaks down into a grapple type situation then you could turn 180o and throw the attacker over your leg.
Cheers,
boz
I'm not perticularly creative, my scenario is an attacker in front of you who throws a punch at my stomach and I block and counter at the same time. The step forward would not be as deep a step forward in my scenario. The punch could replaced by other attacks, but the punch is easiest to imagine.
Maybe the attack scenario is too specific, but I find this far better than a lunging double punch which, really, is poor technique in the way it is performed.
Wow, that's a far cry than the application generally accepted by GKR. I'm curious as to what I can come up with.
Think about how someone might attack you! Who would try and punch you in the stomach? I think someone might have grabbed you with their left hand and may be thinking about punching you in the face with their right hand. You could lock up their left arm and punch or intercept their right hand with your left.
If it breaks down into a grapple type situation then you could turn 180o and throw the attacker over your leg.
Cheers,
boz
QUOTE (bradt @ Dec 10 2005, 07:37 PM)
QUOTE
I like to practice this at home with a slight change. I turn the short punch into a chest height hooking block. This then becomes a practical move IMO.
# How so? What is the attack scenario?
# How so? What is the attack scenario?
I'm not perticularly creative, my scenario is an attacker in front of you who throws a punch at my stomach and I block and counter at the same time. The step forward would not be as deep a step forward in my scenario. The punch could replaced by other attacks, but the punch is easiest to imagine.
Maybe the attack scenario is too specific, but I find this far better than a lunging double punch which, really, is poor technique in the way it is performed.
QUOTE
# after the three sets of punches there is a turn which is a throw. Work backwards and see what you can come up with!
Wow, that's a far cry than the application generally accepted by GKR. I'm curious as to what I can come up with.
QUOTE
Think about how someone might attack you! Who would try and punch you in the stomach?
Hmm... Only a karateka.
QUOTE
If it breaks down into a grapple type situation then you could turn 180o and throw the attacker over your leg.
I've really put some thought into this and when I get the chance I'll practice this with a guinea p... I mean, partner.
QUOTE (bradt @ Dec 11 2005, 10:36 AM)
Hmm... Only a karateka.
Hmmm... Not necessarily. You can alter your fence in order to try and manipulate your opponent to give a pre-determined response. For example, I prefer dealing with hook punches, so I alter my guard in order to invite such an attack, rather than a straight punch.
But isn't the idea that you don't have time to "set them up"?
I think a lot of people overlook the fact that a lot of fighting is also posturing. How many times have you been out and about having a quiet drink and then you notice a group of people, read their body language and think to yourself “Uh oh! There’s a fight about to start”? Not a single punch has been thrown but the inevitably of the situation is clear as day for all to see.
Now it’s up to you to decide when a fight actually starts, whether it’s when they are yelling in your face; or if they start pushing you; or if the first punch is thrown. Pre-emptive striking is another controversial situation (There is no first attack in karate), but if you know for sure that they are going to throw a punch do you really have to wait for it before you respond? Have they not perhaps already initiated an attack by invading your personal space and trying to intimidate you? It’s a personal decision, but I personally think I would prefer to take the initiative rather than wait to block and deal. I think that whoever gets the first strike in has the initiative. Obviously this is if it becomes apparent to me that the chances of me talking them down, or in some other way calming the situation is no longer likely.
If someone starts yelling at me I will use my fence to keep the distance I want, and also to invite a certain attack if it does all get messy. I would add though that as a female it is less likely that I will be involved in these posturing style attacks, but it’s still not a bad idea to train it just in case… add another tool to the toolbox.
Now it’s up to you to decide when a fight actually starts, whether it’s when they are yelling in your face; or if they start pushing you; or if the first punch is thrown. Pre-emptive striking is another controversial situation (There is no first attack in karate), but if you know for sure that they are going to throw a punch do you really have to wait for it before you respond? Have they not perhaps already initiated an attack by invading your personal space and trying to intimidate you? It’s a personal decision, but I personally think I would prefer to take the initiative rather than wait to block and deal. I think that whoever gets the first strike in has the initiative. Obviously this is if it becomes apparent to me that the chances of me talking them down, or in some other way calming the situation is no longer likely.
If someone starts yelling at me I will use my fence to keep the distance I want, and also to invite a certain attack if it does all get messy. I would add though that as a female it is less likely that I will be involved in these posturing style attacks, but it’s still not a bad idea to train it just in case… add another tool to the toolbox.
Creating a fence is a must for self-defence to work IMO. Very few attacks actually come totally out of the blue from an unseen assailant. So in everyday life one must practice the skills of (discreetly) forming a fence as and when appropriate. Whenever (and I mean WHENEVER) you feel a potential threat then your fence should be quite overt. This will give you a much better chance at dealing with whatever happens (it also makes it less likely to happen).
Mike
Mike
Couldnt agree more that a first attack in no way has to be physical. A threat of violence is an attack, and when youve been in that situation you know its coming. Both hands up palms forward shows non agression in the hope of calming the situation, and also gives you a better chance of getting in first when the point of no return is reached..
Wish I'd know this as a teenager..
Wish I'd know this as a teenager..
I read a similar thing in Blitz called a "bubble", and it works wonders for your awareness of your surroundings.
This is from another thread but I thought it was interesting. What would be the application for the same set of moves in this version?
It is also interesting how the moves flow on from the set of techniques beforehand, instead of the GKR version where you move into a neutral position, standing upright, hands at the side.
QUOTE
http://www.shotojukukai.com/kata/kata.htm
This page has Kanazawa sensei performing kata. The Bassai Dai is very similar to the way it is performed at my dojo, although there are still a few minor differences.
This page has Kanazawa sensei performing kata. The Bassai Dai is very similar to the way it is performed at my dojo, although there are still a few minor differences.
This is from another thread but I thought it was interesting. What would be the application for the same set of moves in this version?
It is also interesting how the moves flow on from the set of techniques beforehand, instead of the GKR version where you move into a neutral position, standing upright, hands at the side.
QUOTE (bradt @ Jan 14 2006, 08:44 PM)
QUOTE
http://www.shotojukukai.com/kata/kata.htm
This page has Kanazawa sensei performing kata. The Bassai Dai is very similar to the way it is performed at my dojo, although there are still a few minor differences.
This page has Kanazawa sensei performing kata. The Bassai Dai is very similar to the way it is performed at my dojo, although there are still a few minor differences.
This is from another thread but I thought it was interesting. What would be the application for the same set of moves in this version? It is also interesting how the moves flow on from the set of techniques beforehand, instead of the GKR version where you move into a neutral position, standing upright, hands at the side.
There are usually minor differences between instructors of the same style same association, and Kanazawa Sensei wsa JKA at one time like a lot of other high ranking Japanese instructors who have moved on to forming their own associations. Their teachers didn't know bunkai so they don't either. What they teach was passed on to them and they followed suit and made up some bunkai as well. The students rarely know more than their own teachers unless they've done the research, most are too busy building empires and chasing dollars to bother about research.
Sad but that's life,
Boz
QUOTE
If it breaks down into a grapple type situation then you could turn 180o and throw the attacker over your leg.
This works BRILLIANTLY!!!!!
A fellow student mentioned that in hapkido, you swing the leg around to gain momentum. We went through it a couple of times and it just works.
I got it working like this: Grab the opponent (wherever) with both hands, but with left hand higher than right is preferred. Then swing your leg around so that stance has changed direction 270 degrees as in kata, and use the rotation of the hips to haul the person over your leg. Even if they manage to hurdle your leg they will travel in that direction at least a meter or two, giving you some space. I said left higher than right because from I think, the left arm will start pulling first and if you can pull their shoulders before their hips move then they will a bit unbalanced.
Thanks heaps for the suggestion.
QUOTE
most are too busy building empires and chasing dollars to bother about research.
Not surprising, really.
Hi Brad,
In jujutsu we called it Tai Otoshi (if memory serves me correctly as I'm no longer bothered trying to retain a myriad of Japanese terms). Try to trap the opponent's legs so he cannot step over your leg and he'll hit the deck very fast, then lock his right arm over your left knee and strike or restrain him with your right arm. In the kata what is performed by some as a block can be a backfist for others. Anyway I'm pleased to have been of some help
Cheers,
Boz
In jujutsu we called it Tai Otoshi (if memory serves me correctly as I'm no longer bothered trying to retain a myriad of Japanese terms). Try to trap the opponent's legs so he cannot step over your leg and he'll hit the deck very fast, then lock his right arm over your left knee and strike or restrain him with your right arm. In the kata what is performed by some as a block can be a backfist for others. Anyway I'm pleased to have been of some help
Cheers,
Boz
Yeah it's a backfist in the video of kanazawa, that gives me a visual idea of one way the strike works.
Need more unsuspecting people to try THIS on! >:D
Need more unsuspecting people to try THIS on! >:D
Found an example of how this sequence is applied in a version of Passai, they called it "mountain block" basically the "short punch" shoots under a kick (@ the groin) or under the armpit and the upper (left) arm shoot out at head height. The opponent is unbalanced and the 270 turn then easily dumps then on their backside.
http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/passai_bunkai1.htm
And an interesting quote from the same site:
I have a feeling I'm waaay behind you, Boz
http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/passai_bunkai1.htm
And an interesting quote from the same site:
QUOTE
I will recommend to you all to read Bubishi and Funakoshi's Tote jutsu. It is also very useful to see some video tapes as Chin Na, Okinawa Karate, Goju ryu, Ryueryu and Okinawan karate masters.
I have a feeling I'm waaay behind you, Boz
QUOTE (bradt @ Mar 11 2006, 08:29 PM)
I have a feeling I'm waaay behind you, Boz
Least you aren't alone there!
QUOTE (Nooms @ Mar 11 2006, 09:11 PM)
QUOTE (bradt @ Mar 11 2006, 08:29 PM)
I have a feeling I'm waaay behind you, Boz
Least you aren't alone there!
I was a BB in 1973 before you guys were even born.
Cheers,
Boz
I really like the kata Bassai Dai, but for me to learn how to do something like a kata I need to know what the moves are for. It is when I know what the moves are for that in my small mind I can then make sense of it, and do the kata with conviction.... Making sense so far???
Anyway..
Y'know the part where your legs are in ready stance and your left fist is ontop of the right? Then your left hand opens, palm out-over, fingers to the sky. Making some sort of quarter circle before the punch block?? Yeah, you know the move. Well, whats it for?? I always see it as some sort of gay dance for the Village People.
Its probably been answered before but y'know what, sifting through all these old posts is getting....
Yawn
Anyway..
Y'know the part where your legs are in ready stance and your left fist is ontop of the right? Then your left hand opens, palm out-over, fingers to the sky. Making some sort of quarter circle before the punch block?? Yeah, you know the move. Well, whats it for?? I always see it as some sort of gay dance for the Village People.
Its probably been answered before but y'know what, sifting through all these old posts is getting....
Yawn
Hi Pleb,
Is it just that appliation or are there more applications you'd like to know?
Boz
Is it just that appliation or are there more applications you'd like to know?
Boz
QUOTE (pleb @ May 22 2006, 01:22 PM)
I really like the kata Bassai Dai, but for me to learn how to do something like a kata I need to know what the moves are for. It is when I know what the moves are for that in my small mind I can then make sense of it, and do the kata with conviction.... Making sense so far???
Anyway..
Y'know the part where your legs are in ready stance and your left fist is ontop of the right? Then your left hand opens, palm out-over, fingers to the sky. Making some sort of quarter circle before the punch block?? Yeah, you know the move. Well, whats it for?? I always see it as some sort of gay dance for the Village People.
Its probably been answered before but y'know what, sifting through all these old posts is getting....
Yawn
Anyway..
Y'know the part where your legs are in ready stance and your left fist is ontop of the right? Then your left hand opens, palm out-over, fingers to the sky. Making some sort of quarter circle before the punch block?? Yeah, you know the move. Well, whats it for?? I always see it as some sort of gay dance for the Village People.
Its probably been answered before but y'know what, sifting through all these old posts is getting....
Yawn
Most of the kata is self explanatory, I think so, anyway. But I do have some more questions... One at a time though, eh...
QUOTE (pleb @ May 23 2006, 02:24 AM)
Most of the kata is self explanatory, I think so, anyway. But I do have some more questions... One at a time though, eh...
Hi Pleb, Good you give me an example of an application you do to Bassai dai? I just want to get a handle n where you are atwith the kata.
Thanks,
Boz
I'm an orange belt, Boz, I've been doing karate, GKR style for less than five months. So if your asking me if I have any in-depth knowledge of the kata then the answer is a simple 'no'.
I know the blocks involved, the kicks, (one of which is used in my basics class/dojo). And I know the strikes.
I also know how to place myself in-to the kata in my own mind, imagining the fight scenario, inorder that I can do the kata correctly.
I often read on the net about Kata taking a lifetime to understand, and its an understanding that can not be put into words. Thats hard for me to comprehend, however, I dont refute that. With that in mind, I'm not seeking any indepth stuff at this point, I simply want to know what the fore mentioned move is meant to be doing... Is it a move that has a purpose or a transitional move, taking one from point A to point B, so to speak?...
Hmmm... In typing this I do believe I may have an opinion as to what it is.
But I'll wait for others ideas before I submit mine
I know the blocks involved, the kicks, (one of which is used in my basics class/dojo). And I know the strikes.
I also know how to place myself in-to the kata in my own mind, imagining the fight scenario, inorder that I can do the kata correctly.
I often read on the net about Kata taking a lifetime to understand, and its an understanding that can not be put into words. Thats hard for me to comprehend, however, I dont refute that. With that in mind, I'm not seeking any indepth stuff at this point, I simply want to know what the fore mentioned move is meant to be doing... Is it a move that has a purpose or a transitional move, taking one from point A to point B, so to speak?...
Hmmm... In typing this I do believe I may have an opinion as to what it is.
But I'll wait for others ideas before I submit mine
Something that i`ve done in the past, is to question every move in a kata. Which move is open to application and which isn't?
I know the move you mention though Si, I've always been taught that it was just a block and nothing more, but i wasn`t taught the kata for long enough to get a real handle on it.
I know the move you mention though Si, I've always been taught that it was just a block and nothing more, but i wasn`t taught the kata for long enough to get a real handle on it.
Hi Pleb,
You must have trained previously somewhere then Pleb, surely you wouldn't be tackling Bassai Dai after 5 months? I apply the application of karate basics to kata and the meaning soon becomes clear. The move in question is a common response to an attacker attempting to punch, push or grab. We sweep their attack aside while using tai sabaki (body evasion and positioning), seize and control the opponent's arm before striking and locking the attacker at the elbow.
Cheers,
Boz
You must have trained previously somewhere then Pleb, surely you wouldn't be tackling Bassai Dai after 5 months? I apply the application of karate basics to kata and the meaning soon becomes clear. The move in question is a common response to an attacker attempting to punch, push or grab. We sweep their attack aside while using tai sabaki (body evasion and positioning), seize and control the opponent's arm before striking and locking the attacker at the elbow.
Cheers,
Boz
QUOTE (pleb @ May 23 2006, 01:53 PM)
I'm an orange belt, Boz, I've been doing karate, GKR style for less than five months. So if your asking me if I have any in-depth knowledge of the kata then the answer is a simple 'no'.I know the blocks involved, the kicks, (one of which is used in my basics class/dojo). And I know the strikes.
I also know how to place myself in-to the kata in my own mind, imagining the fight scenario, inorder that I can do the kata correctly.
I often read on the net about Kata taking a lifetime to understand, and its an understanding that can not be put into words. Thats hard for me to comprehend, however, I dont refute that. With that in mind, I'm not seeking any indepth stuff at this point, I simply want to know what the fore mentioned move is meant to be doing... Is it a move that has a purpose or a transitional move, taking one from point A to point B, so to speak?...
Hmmm... In typing this I do believe I may have an opinion as to what it is.
But I'll wait for others ideas before I submit mine
I also know how to place myself in-to the kata in my own mind, imagining the fight scenario, inorder that I can do the kata correctly.
I often read on the net about Kata taking a lifetime to understand, and its an understanding that can not be put into words. Thats hard for me to comprehend, however, I dont refute that. With that in mind, I'm not seeking any indepth stuff at this point, I simply want to know what the fore mentioned move is meant to be doing... Is it a move that has a purpose or a transitional move, taking one from point A to point B, so to speak?...
Hmmm... In typing this I do believe I may have an opinion as to what it is.
But I'll wait for others ideas before I submit mine
QUOTE
You must have trained previously somewhere then Pleb, surely you wouldn't be tackling Bassai Dai after 5 months? I apply the application of karate basics to kata and the meaning soon becomes clear. The move in question is a common response to an attacker attempting to punch, push or grab. We sweep their attack aside while using tai sabaki (body evasion and positioning), seize and control the opponent's arm before striking and locking the attacker at the elbow.
Cheers Boz I haven't heard that application before.
So let me get this straight: their forearm (lets say their left forearm) is grasped in your left hand, which is at your left side, and your right hand has punched and then the arm hooks up to pin their arm across your chest.
That sounds very similar to an aikido move I was shown on the weekend.
One thing I'm not sure about, where is the tai sabaki in this move? In Passai I'm aware the upper body actually moves in space but in Bassai-Dai, the upper body barely moves after the step up into heiko dachi.
Another application I jave been told is that the open hand move is simply a shuto block, followed by punching then blocking their simultaneous strike, and then repeating. It seemed an OK application but it implies that your punches are ineffective, and the oppoenent is is not fazed or moved by your counterattacks.
Hi Brad,
Applications need to work whether the attacker has struck with the left or the right hand. The lock has to work also. Want to learn how to apply the moves? You can ask your instructors, work it out for yourself or visit me in QLD
Cheers,
Boz
Cheers Boz I haven't heard that application before.
So let me get this straight: their forearm (lets say their left forearm) is grasped in your left hand, which is at your left side, and your right hand has punched and then the arm hooks up to pin their arm across your chest.
That sounds very similar to an aikido move I was shown on the weekend.
One thing I'm not sure about, where is the tai sabaki in this move? In Passai I'm aware the upper body actually moves in space but in Bassai-Dai, the upper body barely moves after the step up into heiko dachi.
Another application I jave been told is that the open hand move is simply a shuto block, followed by punching then blocking their simultaneous strike, and then repeating. It seemed an OK application but it implies that your punches are ineffective, and the oppoenent is is not fazed or moved by your counterattacks.
Applications need to work whether the attacker has struck with the left or the right hand. The lock has to work also. Want to learn how to apply the moves? You can ask your instructors, work it out for yourself or visit me in QLD
Cheers,
Boz
QUOTE (bradt @ May 23 2006, 06:59 PM)
QUOTE
You must have trained previously somewhere then Pleb, surely you wouldn't be tackling Bassai Dai after 5 months? I apply the application of karate basics to kata and the meaning soon becomes clear. The move in question is a common response to an attacker attempting to punch, push or grab. We sweep their attack aside while using tai sabaki (body evasion and positioning), seize and control the opponent's arm before striking and locking the attacker at the elbow.
Cheers Boz I haven't heard that application before.
So let me get this straight: their forearm (lets say their left forearm) is grasped in your left hand, which is at your left side, and your right hand has punched and then the arm hooks up to pin their arm across your chest.
That sounds very similar to an aikido move I was shown on the weekend.
One thing I'm not sure about, where is the tai sabaki in this move? In Passai I'm aware the upper body actually moves in space but in Bassai-Dai, the upper body barely moves after the step up into heiko dachi.
Another application I jave been told is that the open hand move is simply a shuto block, followed by punching then blocking their simultaneous strike, and then repeating. It seemed an OK application but it implies that your punches are ineffective, and the oppoenent is is not fazed or moved by your counterattacks.
QUOTE (pleb @ May 23 2006, 02:53 PM)
I often read on the net about Kata taking a lifetime to understand, and its an understanding that can not be put into words. Thats hard for me to comprehend, however, I dont refute that.
I have a strong suspicion that people who say 'it can't be put into words' are saying it simply because they can't put it into words - not that it can't be done. I suspect if they understood the movements sufficiently they'd be able to at least attempt to explain them.
Not a dig at you pleb, no-one could expect you to have a depth of understanding after 5 months. The fact that you're asking questions shows that you'll go a along way (as long as you keep training and get good tuition.
Mike
No, Boz, five months is all the experiance I have. But if one should love what one does then isnt it natural for one to endeavour to exceed?
Thank you Mike, I believe I'm getteing the best tuition that is offered in my region. I do say this, however, I am by no means good at the kata. I know its pattern and thats about it.
I agree with you Mike, all knowledge and emotions can be conveyed into words somehow.
The move I questioned.. The way I was shown it, moving slowly, suggest to me that you have a hold of someone by the wrist. If it was a block surely it would be performed much quicker. Your moving the attackers arm out so as to open hims/her guard, giving you a easy punch to the stomach. Perhaps I'm wrong but a block, in the fashion I've been shown is a rappid movement. Where-as this move in GKR, as I'm made to believe, is slow.....
Thank you all for your feedback thus far
Thank you Mike, I believe I'm getteing the best tuition that is offered in my region. I do say this, however, I am by no means good at the kata. I know its pattern and thats about it.
I agree with you Mike, all knowledge and emotions can be conveyed into words somehow.
The move I questioned.. The way I was shown it, moving slowly, suggest to me that you have a hold of someone by the wrist. If it was a block surely it would be performed much quicker. Your moving the attackers arm out so as to open hims/her guard, giving you a easy punch to the stomach. Perhaps I'm wrong but a block, in the fashion I've been shown is a rappid movement. Where-as this move in GKR, as I'm made to believe, is slow.....
Thank you all for your feedback thus far
QUOTE (pleb @ May 24 2006, 02:26 PM)
The move I questioned.. The way I was shown it, moving slowly, suggest to me that you have a hold of someone by the wrist. If it was a block surely it would be performed much quicker. Your moving the attackers arm out so as to open hims/her guard, giving you a easy punch to the stomach. Perhaps I'm wrong but a block, in the fashion I've been shown is a rappid movement. Where-as this move in GKR, as I'm made to believe, is slow.....
Should a grab and 'removing someone's arm out of the way' not also be done quickly? I doubt they'd stick around to let you do that slowly.
Having just opened the target of the stomach as above OK you can now punch. But you're attacker is still stood in front of you. What's to stop him hitting you at the same time? What's to stop him throwing his punch before you throw yours, so he hits you first? This is all about who can throw their punch first and fastest. No matter how good you are, as you get older and you inevitably slow down you're going to start losing this competition. Speed and strength need to be replaced with skill and knowledge.
Try tweaking the technique as follows (very much in the same vein that Boz described): place your left wrist on the outside of their left wrist . Move your whole body round to their left slightly (tai-sabaki). At the same time sweep your left hand across (as in the kata move) and seize their wrist. This should turn the attacker away from you slightly and unbalance them slightly. Draw your left hand back to your hip (as in the kata) turning it over at the same time. This will further disrupt their balance and draw their body slightly towards you. At the same time punch to the torso.
This will make life much more difficult for the attacker. You've moved to their 'outside' and turned them away so that they can't hit you with their free hand. You've broken their balance so their mind will be focussed on regaining balance rather than hitting you. If they do manage to strike you while they're off-balance it is unlikely to have sufficient power to hurt you. And finally, you now have a free shot at the side/back of the attacker - and as they're unbalanced your strike will probably have more effect than it would otherwise.
Karate's not about fighting fair, its about making things as easy as possible for you and as difficult as possible for the other guy.
Don't worry too much about the slow aspect of this move. Sometimes slow moves can be a red herring. Some people think that slow moves indicate a grappling application. Personally I don't (in the sense that there are many other moves in kata that can be used in grappling that are not performed slowly - so why do particular ones slowly?). I think its more about just making sure you do the move properly with power throughout its entire execution.
Mike
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.