I have been reading through some discussion on kata, now while the order is not always important, if you were given the GKR kata to work with, how would you order them? Would you leave them as is or would you change things right around? would you leave the kata alternating between Goju and Shotokan?

as it stands the kata are

Yellow Belt: Taigyoku Shodan
Orange Belt: Taigyoku Nidan
Green Belt: Saifa
Blue Belt: Saifa
Red Belt: Bassai Dai
Brown Belt: Bassai Dai
Black Tip: Seiunchin
2nd Black Tip: Empi
Black Belt: Sanseryu + Sepai
1st Dan: Sepai + Hangetsu
2nd Dan: Kanku Dai + Kururunfa
3rd Dan: Shisochin + Kanku Sho
4th Dan: Seisan + Sochin

I'd get rid of that abomination of 'second kata' for a start. teaches nothing practical and to my mind is worth nothing except as an exercise tool. I dont know the higher katas but having seen them it appears theres an awful lot of duplication. Perhaps thini them out a bit or replace with something that involves alternate applications?

Looking at it listed like that there is an awful lot of kata there....

The consensus in my region is that you never lead which a front kick off the back foot, yet there is second kata. I definitely agree with you on that one.

I wonder how saifa would look if it was performed at 2nd kyu or somehwere even higher instead of at orange belt.

There are only 15 kata, 6 of which you need for kyu grades.

"Minimum" grading time between dan grades should be more than sufficient to become proficcient in each of those katas.

If you removed taikyoko nidan, then (without adding extra kata) what would you use to replace it?

Surely going into saifa straight after 1st kata would be too difficult? Most people have enough trouble learning it for 6th kyu...

Can we keep taikyoko nidan and get rid of t. shodan? I like kicks Just think of the lil kids now, going from no kata till orange, only needing t. shodan and t. nidan for green then having to learn the first two plus saifa for blue.

never had any trouble learning it as a YB??

not knowing the kata above shodan ho The way I would order it would be as follows

Yellow Belt: Taigyoku Shodan
Orange Belt: Saifa
Green Belt: Saifa
Blue Belt: Seiunchin
Red Belt: Bassai Dai
Brown Belt: Bassai Dai
Black Tip: Sanseryu
2nd Black Tip: Empi
Black Belt: Sepai

just a passing thought, I for one think B' dai and sanseryu have been missplaced, the first being under rated and the later over rated in terms of difficulty and depth.

I would love to see someone who has an in-depth experience with all these kata offer their opinion, I know many people may only be looking at the more obvious side to the kata and judge it on that.

I couldnt agree more - most styles place saifa a lot higher than a sixth kyu kata. The depth of applications in there is something I am only just starting to comprehend - thanks in no small part to Mike Flanagans excellent videos and descriptions.
There are plenty of traditional kata that ease into the coming complexity a lot better than simply throwing a kick into taikyoko shodan. Given that T-S is an partly exercise in getting a beginner student introduced to kata, walking and chewing gum at the same time so to speak, what is the point in just throwing a kick in? what the hecks that all about? Its been suggested by others one of the gekesai or pinan/heian katas would be a more appropriate stepping stone. Did Bob Sullivan just want to make his mark or make sure his style had something unique?

Why not Tensho? Not hard to learn the pattern and a wealth of applications. It used to be in there apparently, once upon a time.

The gkr series is unfortunately a mishmash of two schools that as individual systems work extremely well, but blended just dont seem to gel together.

I went through tensho with new monday sensei tonight, I'd actually like to see it put (back?) into the syllabus, maybe as the tranistion kata between T. Shodan and saifa. Okay it's maybe a bit of a step, but its short and would help to focus on actually remembering to do that breathing thing every once in a while during kata. Which is why we were going through. course, half way through I remembered somebody's bunkai for it and spent the rest of the time trying very hard not to start giggling....

You're sick and twisted

I'm red belt (4th) so I have done more Bassai-Dai than any other kata and I've found it has enough challenges and enough things to show me at this level, it works well as an intermediate kata. I wouldn't be surprised if many people got their blue belt, started learning Bassai Dai and thought "Wow! this kata is great!".

This probably belongs in another thread, but I learned a spaghetti version of Gekisai about 9 months ago which I haven't spent much time practising. I don't know how accurate it is regarding it's origins but IMO it seems like a much more approprite kata for greens and orange belts to learn.

BTW I was also told when I learned it that it was once in the GKR syllabus as the green-to-blue grading kata but was removed???

It was an Italian version..... but yes it was at one stage part of the GKR kata list.

Have you ever seen a spaghetti western? Not exactly a proper effort for a film.

Gekasai was apparently removed from the syllabus in order to allow more time for saifa....



I agree



I like the placement of sanseru, but still would have to disagree with saifa being too early, and seiunchin needs to be the other side of bassai dai.
Most people percieve seiunchin to be an "easy" kata, because it's quite repetitive, and "looks" simple.
However, to make it even look good, even simple things like leg strength have to be present, and probally aren't by green/blue belt.

I have spent all year on seiunchin, and the more I do it, the more I realise there is to discover about the kata.... definetely in my oppinion, not a kata for 5th kyu.

What about for 3rd kyu?

Yes it was. Actually there were a lot of Kata in the old syllabus that aren't there now,

The early syllabus included

Taigyoku shodan Taigyoku Judan Taigyoku chudan
Taigyoku Gedan Heian Shodan Heian Nidan
Heian Sandan Heian yondan Heian Godan
Kaka uke Mawashi Gekasai
Hangetsu Empi Gangkaku
Jion Saifa Sisochin
Tekki 1 Tekki 2 Sanchin
Tensho Bassai dai Kunku dai
Jitte

So 25 in total. Then 19 of them were abolished but new ones added like Taigjoku Nidan, Seunchin, Sepai, and seisan. And we were left with only 10 Kata.

And of course the latest change was the reintroduction of Hangetsu. And the introduction of sanseru, Kururunfa, Kanku sho and sochin.

If you're going to have a mixture of style kata in a syllabus, wouldn't it be better to stick to one style up to, say, blackbelt and then expand the range of available kata?


Mick

But what criteria are you making your placements on?
A kata always seems simple till you break it down.

If "real learning" in karate* begins at black belt, then why does it matter in which order we learn kata? Why are the gekisai often taught before saifa? If we don't really understand the kata and the applications until we reach black belt status, then shouldn't it only be the visual aspects of the kata that matter? Saifa has only two directions of movement, the gekisai set have four, so technically is more difficult to learn, surely?
Apparently this question only sometimes makes sense when I ask it - my apologies for waffling.
Summary: if real learning begins at black belt, why are gekisai kata taught before saifa?


*MA in general? I've only ever heard it in relation to karate, but I've only really done karate...

Hi Nooms, Gekisai comes before Saifa because it is way easier to learn and perform and teach than Saifa. How many directions a kata has, has absolutely nothing to do with how dificult a kata is. The hadest kata I have had to learn so far is Sanchin and it only has 2 directions and some clubs do it with only one direction.

Some people may find saifa easier to learn than gekisai, but from my limited experience they are few and far between.

In my opinion understanding kata has nothing to do with being a bb, I bet karate masters are still finding things in the most basic of kata years and years after first learning that kata. I start to explain to my students the applications to kata as they are learning them, then I ask them to try and think of some more. Sometimes they come up with the most obvious and simple applications that I have never seen before, I learn so much from doing this, its great.

rocket

I think it's easier to learn kata from the same "family" than to just mix-and-match. It's also better from the point of view of being able to construct a sequence of kata which may start with emphasizing a few basic techniques and then become more involved and not be jumping back and forth between systems.

e.g. begin with a small set of basic techniques to a basic pattern then move to a kata with some more complex sequences but still keeping largely to the same basic pattern and also still retains the principles found in the prior kata. Etc.


Mick

So you don't think "real learning" begins at bb? Is there just more kata and it's applications to learn? What makes a kata difficult?


Translation, guru? Are gekisai and saifa from the same family?

Actually I think that's a bit of a generalisation. You're not suddenly more capable or more knowledgeable the day after your first BB grading than you were the day before. Although most learning is not a steady or gradual process either - it tends to move along in fits and starts. But you need a demarcation line somewhere and though the public perception (as well as that of most students) is that a BB is an expert we know that not to be the case, don't we?

If we were to restructure things so that after BB any new kata were optional rather than mandatory this could open a whole new can of worms for some people. What would they learn, or what would they teach? If you (as a BB) turn up to training and find no instructor or the instructor were to ask you to look after yourself that night would you think it a waste of time having come? Or would you be able to do some training or practice with little or no instruction?


To me, learning applications is leaning towards a dangerous area. Of course this depends entirely on the context in which this is placed. If it is simply memorising applications for each section of a kata then you've basically added a list of stuff to the syllabus to learn. If however it includes variations or alternative followups to automatic reactions then it's more a case of building a body of knowledge of what can be done after the initial response when the brain has time to catch up to what's already happened, after you've already responded to the initial stimulus.

I think what makes a kata difficult may vary from person to person, depending on their views on what kata is for.


Did I ever translate the gekisai chapters from that okinawan book? I think from memory Miyagi created Gekisai as introductory kata and these are normally taught first as introductory kata before Saifa? Maybe he was copying Itosu's idea with the Pinan kata? I think Nagamine did the same sort of thing with the Fukyugata in Matsubayashi-Ryu. Sometimes the histories are a bit blurred and the accounts depend a lot on who wrote them.


Mick

You cant have seiunchin before bassai it contains far too many techniques not all students will be ready to perform yet wereas bassai has almost all of the basic kihon plus advanced stance and blocks such as kokosu datch and shoto...

Rubbish.

Seiunchin is easier than Bassai Dai.

I'm currantly learning Seiunchin, I know Bassai Dai fairly well now. Frankly I learned Bassai Dai far easier than I'm learning Seiunchin. I would tend to agree with Sempai boy, that......"You cant have seiunchin before bassai it contains far too many techniques not all students will be ready to perform".. But see, thats just me, the next student might thrive on a higher kata.

Dont you all think that perhaps its an individuals capabilities that dictate whats easiest for them?
The mind set here seems to be that what YOU think is easiest is the right order for everyone.
I think that the kata order for GKR is just fine. Lets face it, some people will learn higher kata's and pay closer attention to them than their own grade kata. And usually for their own individual reasons.


Si

Hi Si,

I agree with your statements - however do you not think that if kata were studied in a bit more detail rather than just 'it looks good this way' the situation might be a little different? Talk of perfecting a kata without any analysis appears to be a little contradictory.

*Thread Drift*

Kata perfection.... Now, there`s an idea! Can you really say that any kata you do will be perfect, or will it only be as good as the person who teaches it to you?

And the Application elements.... One Instructor tells me that Bassai Dai is a kata constructed for use against a Samurai on Horseback,
Whilst another says its a defence against someone holding a spear, and that the salutation at the beginning is actually an attempt to grap the spear shaft.
And yet another tells me that he doesn`t have clue about the kata but pretty sure that the above two ideas were complete rubbish.

Anyway.... How good does your kata ever have to be? Good enough to grade, or maybe good enough to win tournaments?

*Drift Over*