I've seen on a couple of sites (including this one) the line "this kata was designed to be taught by schoolteachers as part of the PE syllabus" or worded similarly.

Is this point meant to imply that these kata are not worthwhile for those seeking 'true karate knowledge'?

I teach all 5 of the Pinan series of schoolkid's kata. Although Boz and I, for example, have some quite different thoughts on the purpose of the these kata, I think its fair to say that we both find them useful. So that should tell you something.

I think though that it would be pointless to do all 5 of the Pinans/Heians, plus all the Taikyokus and all the Gekisais (if that's the correct spelling).

Personally I use the Pinans as a central focus of a student's introduction to Karate. This is likely to take several years.

Mike

I think there are too many schools teaching too many kata. Sure the Pinan may be considered to be kata for schoolkids but I consider it should be taken in the context of most people train probably a couple of nights a week for an hour or two and don't think about their training until they're getting ready to go to their next class.

In this light it is perhaps futile to try starting off with more "advanced" kata and so these kata serve a purpose in introducing basic movement and techniques using short patterns with a common shape.

Personally I don't use all of the Pinan but they are there should I choose to go through one for variety or to illustrate a particular point. But I don't see the point in bundling in a whole bunch of other basic kata, especially not to make it an exercise in concentration or a sweat session by repetitions of kata performance. And since the Taikyoku set are sometimes regarded as further simplification to a lowest common denominator type of thing, unless a student has no idea - has never even heard of kata - then I won't waste their time (or mine) teaching them Taikyoku but would start with some of the Pinan instead.


Mick

Mick if you saw the taikyoku katas we are doing you would have a different opinion of them.

rocket

I guess it is mostly a matter of opinion. For me, the taikyoku kata introduce the concept of block-and-counter-while-moving, the concept of having to follow patterns in order to memorise and utilise techniques more easily, and have a tendency to get my mind "back to basics" when I get caught up in the performance aspect of kata. Same goes for the Pinan/Heian series'. But then, I'm one of the students who had never even heard of kata before I started training. At the same time, I don't see a lot of point in drilling myself on more of them, except for the enjoyment I get out of trying any new kata.
I guess some would say the "schoolteachers kata" are not worth teaching, others say they are, and I guess since it's a personal journey, it's a personal view....

Yep. Shutting up.

Here's a quote from an article by Joe Swift on fightingarts.com:



I took this as a suggestion that "the Pinan" were not worthwhile kata compared to Kushanku (related to kankudai?).

Apparently not all kata are equal.

Hi Brad

Kushanku or Kusanku is the precursor to Kanku Dai. Some versions of Kusanku are very similar to Kanku Dai, its really just the name that's different - Funakoshi changed the names of many kata to give them a more Japanese feel.

The modern versions of Kusanku / Kanku-dai are very similar in many ways to the Pinans. So I wouldn't describe one as being particularly more advanced than the other.

I wonder if Kentsu Yabu was more concerned with making a distinction between old style and new style kata? I'm not sure really. Or maybe he just considered the Pinan's superfluous if you already know Kusanku. I can see some validity in that point of view.

The way I do the Pinan's is stylistically quite different from the way I do the older classical kata, so I still find it of value to do both. And at the end of the day, the Pinan's are easier for students to learn.

Mike

Hi Brad,

The truth is that the choice of kata is not as important as understanding how they can be utilised to teach karate. If one is learning patterns of kata that have no meaning and the their basic elements can't be applied to any useful purpose then what kata is worthwhile?

Itosu has been recognized as a karate genius therefore he is sure to have some detractors. Yabu's comments need to be taken in context. Yabu assisted Itosu in formulating the school karate program. If one knows Kushanku, and not jut the pattern, then there is little need to practise Pinan kata as the same lessons are to be found in Kushanku.

To me it is not a question of whether kata are worthwhile or not, is the teacher worthwhile, is the style/association wothwhile, am I learning authentic karate? BTW what would you replace the Pinan with and why? These are questions that serious students should be answering.

Bob

I think in any "traditional/ original" styles these kata's make up a good introduction and or are useful for kids.

The real issue is when a mishmash style is created using combinations of older styles having students do the Pinans, Taikyoku and Geksai's would mean doing 10 odd kata's before starting something like Saifa.

Considering the original idea for some styles was to do Sanchin or equilivent and then a few kata's fitting your body type or style. Doing 10 beginner kata's and then another 5-6 "standard" kata's before Black Belt would just be stupid. The quality or depth of knowledge would just not be there.

What i am seeing is some styles having a few school kata's to start then 1 kata per colour belt ie yellow, green, brown and black. Throw in Sanchin or equil and done. so broken down 2 school kata, 4 grading kata and 1 style kata. Total 7 Kata to BB. This then continues in the Dan grades etc

The next school down the street does 5 school kata's 2 kata's per belt but have more belt colours 2 style type kata's because it a mixed school. Broken down this is 5 school kata, 8 grading kata and 2 style kata. Total 15 kata to BB. Then at 3rd Dan they import new Kata because they ran out they have already done 20+

So if you compare the schools and a BB takes 3 years (well some places) one school is teaching kata at a rate of 1 kata every 2 months and the other 1 kata every 5 months. If you want to include refinement, applications, a two man version etc 2 months is not enough. Hell 5 months is not enough. So what happens they drop the applications and two man versions, rather than drop some "duplicate" kata's and refine the ones they keep.

I would rather learn in my life say 6 kata's really well than 20 kata's badly.

So use the school katas but dont flog them to death some styles already have way to many kata's

cheers
Freek

So whats a good number then?
How much is enough?

Well.. some would say 3 or 4 is enough. But you'd probably have to be hard-core dedicated and not be the sort of person who might get bored with a small number. Some think 18 or 20 (to blackbelt) is a good number, keeps people busy and stops them getting bored. Some have a slew of kata and all sorts of reasons to justify it, others have particular kata just because their association says to have them. Who is right?

Maybe how many just depends on the sort of person you are and what you're using the kata for? Maybe you study a small number in depth and have others just for playing with and a bit of variety? Or maybe you like kata just as a meditation / moving zen type of thing so the number doesn't really matter so much as having some variety and being able to get "in the zone" performing them?

Some people say if you want to exercise you should go to the gym. Others say to do Tai Chi. Are they both right? Or both wrong? Or does it depend on the individual to whom the advice is directed...?


Mick

I think it really depends on what the instructors teach in kata. We are some where between Mick's examples of 3-4 kata and 18-20 for black belt with 7-8 kata to BB. What i find though is because of the applications and two man versions etc this keeps me far from bored.

Last night we had to use a different room to train in which was much smaller. So we did a hour and a half of Kakie or sticky hands. We used this to do applications for kata. So rather than starting the application from a basic middle punch etc it starts from pushing hands. This is possibly more real in terms of a push and shove in the pub.

We then applied these applications in locks and takedowns. Some application have dual purpose ie basic application and then grappling type application, some do not so we played and made some up to see if they would work.

We then kakie as freesparing to see what we could use when pushed.

As long as i do this type of thing for kata i dont think i will need 20+

Cheers
Freek