Hi All
Hoping one of you could enlighten me.
I keep reading here and there about how how basics and kata form a foundation for kumite. I can surely see how basics help, but really cant see how good kata can lead to good sparring. Dont mean to dis kata. I enjoy it. Its great exercise and a good test of skill and ability. Just cant see how it helps sparring.

Deano

Well deano i guess at the most rudamentry level kata teaches the body how to move on differant directions whilst performing varying techniques.
On a slitly deeper level i believe that kata develops the sparring instinct, ie: knowing when to do something and how and why.
I am sure there are many other reasons but these are the 2 most prominant reasons that i can think of as to how kata helps you in kumite.

Ian :thumbwink:

Thanks Omega.
I guess I can see it now. Its about getting your body to do things its not used to doing. Improving co-ordination. That'd be me!

Deano

Think of Kata as a depository of techniques. That way, the Kata serve as a reminder of how techniques can/should be performed. From there, you learn adaptability, flexibility (of thinking, not of the body in this sense) and judgement of how and when to use the techniques.

Sparring as we know it never used to exist in Budo - Karate and sparring are a 20th century invention, so Kata were the only formalised exercises performed. Sure, matches probably occured between martial artists , but were not formalised like our sparring is today. Tournaments didn't exist either. So why were Kata used back then? Retain knowledge: people weren't as well educated as we are today (couldn't read or write as well), so Kata and other cultural activities such as ceremonies and dances, were used to pass on information to the junior members of society.

Just some extra food for thought.

Craig.

Hi Deano,

Kata contain hints that can be used in sparring. As an example, many kata have moves that step to 45o. In countering an attacker, it is a good tactic to angle away and counter-attack.

In Bassai Dai, we execute a straight punch and an inside block. In actual fact, the inside block is a disguised back fist strike. One popular technique used to be feigning a reverse punch and turning it into a back fist attack.

Early kata were intended for self-defense but karate kata have techniques that were intended for use against other karateka.

Regards,
Boz

PS Good question ; )

How do you tell which kata are intended for self defence and which have techniques intended for use against other karateka?


Mick

Hi Mick,

The following kata were the original kata syllabus of karate-

Pinan 1-5
(created by Itosu)

Naifanchi 1-3
(revised by Itosu- 2 + 3 may have been his creation)

Bassai Dai and Sho
Kanku Dai and Sho
Chinto
Gojushiho
(all revised by Itosu)

Regards,
Boz

Boz

So these kata you name have techniques intended for use against other karateka? Or self defence techniques as well?

Have I misunderstood the answer or is my original question too vague?

These are all shotokan kata aren't they. Is the answer that the revisions from the earlier form added techniques for use against other karateka?

I know you prefer to provide hints rather than tell the answer outright, an answer learned through questioning and research is learned better than an answer which is just handed over to the asker.

If I am asking there are probably others who are wondering but don't want to ask. Or don't know yet what I mean. Or already know the answer. Or laughing behind their hand at the dumb questions.


Mick

Hi Sionnagh,

The original 14 kata of karate had both.. Matsumura added fighting technology from Jigen-ryu kenjutsu and Chinese Martial Arts that he studied in Fuchien to karate.

Itosu included this knowledge when he revised some kata and created the Pinan. Itosu was very clever and left a pathway to the original brutal self-defense of the earlier Te version.


The Kata of karate were all learned by Funakoshi and Mabuni and Mabuni included them all in his kata syllabus but Funakoshi did not. Funakoshi omitted Bassai Sho and Kanku Sho and included Seishan, Jitte, and Jion.

Regards,
Boz

So then the karate kata had/have both self defence and techniques for use against other karateka. The kata which predate karate, the Te kata, were basically pure self-defence forms.

And each time a kata is revised/changed by someone to suit their own purpose, whether it is for appearances in competition performance or to modify the stances or techniques to eliminate any which they don't teach in their school, takes the kata a little further from the original form. And if there is also no application knowledge passed on with the kata to be able to return to the previous form it makes it that little bit harder to puzzle out those applications.


Mick

Hi Sionnagh,

Yes.. although the real problem occurs in firstly finding a teacher that knows the oral explanation that accompanies the kata and secondly one that is willing to share this information with you, i.e. teach.

What many (like myself) do is cross train and pick up grappling skills in an effort to make kata interpretation a little easier. But there is still a problem in not knowing if the moves in the kata are worth trying to interret as the changes to the kata have been fairly radical.

Lastly when one does work out what is thought to be a reasonable efficient application thereis no way to confirm that you are on the right track. Others come up with a multitude of applications different to your own so confusion remains..

Of course it is the journey that is enjoyable

Regards,
Boz

Lacking a teacher who can teach the kata beyond the pattern of the kata it does become necessary to try and figure it out.

I found an interesting piece on kata analysis from the Shukokai website which has since moved, to where I don't know. Lucky for me I saved the page.

Some key points I gleaned from this text are:
- It is futile to do with more what can be done with fewer.
- Ask a class of beginners to list the techniques they consider most likely to be faced with should they be assaulted, and they will compile a list for you that is similar to "push, grab, headbutt, headlock, football kick, right hook, downward strike (bottle)".
- Yet when analysing kata for effective applications, many karate-ka resort to the techniques they have learned to perform as the attacks that they must defend against. This makes sense, if one were practicing for the competition fighting area, but if we consider that our civil defence tradition is designed to protect us against these "habitual acts of violence", then these are the attacks against which we should be looking to defend.

There is much more in the original text but these pretty much summarize the bulk of it.

And it is fun to try things and see what works, what is practical and what would make sense.


Mick

Personally I dont think there is any relationship between the two at all.
Kata is the "style" side of our art and kumite is the combat side.
No-one can seriously tell me that they would do saipha on someone attacking them? To me Kata has nothing to do with sparring other than as a means of physical exercise and a co-ordination drill. It does this very well, but come on, you cant seriously suggest it helps sparring?

Aaawwww Rebecca

On the defence side, what would you do if someone grabbed you by the wrist, arm, shoulder, or shirtfront? If someone took a swing at your head?

On the kumite side, what do you do when someone strikes or kicks? If they come in with a combination?


Mick

Hello Rebecca,

Saifa is a kata that responds to common assault situations and is not suitable for kumite I agree. I havelearned it in the past with applications but as I was training in Shotokan at that time did not other retaining it for my own practise.

Bushi Matsumura was the man responsible for introducing new combat concepts into what was then known as Te. He lived in Shuri and was a bodyguard to the King. Because of this he traveled to Fuchouand studied Chinese Boxing and later to Shimizu in Japan where he studied Jigen-Ryu swordsmanship.

It is thought that Matsumura introduced the agile footwork, continuous punching, the unweighted punch, makiwara training and the principle of outside to inside often taught in sparring today. You will see these principles in the kata of karate, not in Goju kata which was created with a different emphasis and is really another martial art.

The Pinan Kata provide great examples of both kumite (striking at each other) and toride (close-quarter self-defense grappling).

Regards,
Boz

Okay.
If Rebecca is wrong in saying they DON'T have anything to do with each other... why then can someone be REALLY good at kata but REALLY bad at kumite?

I know my katas are rather good. My Sensei has told me that from the beginning. BUT I need A LOT of work on my kumite.
If one helped the other my kumite wouldn't be as poor as it is now.

Can anyone explain that?

To answer your question without seeing your kata and kumite, kata is only a base for kumite it teaches you how to move and throw out powerful techniques, saying this having good kata wont mean that you will have good kumite because they are differant skills. Learning kata just helps to cement the kumite skills faster because most people will relate it to moves that they already do in kata.

miyagi sensei (Karate Kid 1) said "Daniel san, kata is the foundation of karate, with a good foundation only then will you have a strong karate"

Some people believe that kihon is the foundation of karate... so, was miyagi sensei wrong? IMO not really. You need good kihon to develop good kata and good kata to develop good kumite. Kind of like a three story building... But, this does not mean that someone with good kihon and good kata automatically will be awesome at kumite. You need pay as much attention to developing your kumite skills as much the others.

kihon and kata will help your kumite. kata helps you lern how to put combinations together, in a safe and controlled environment. kata helps you develop: flexibility, speed, breathing timing and footwork as well as learning some self defense techniques…

jamata

BIG

for those of you who have great kata but not strong kumite...

it could be because those complaining about it are girls.

i dont mean to be sexist but i always find the girls are too tense or sloppy when it comes to kumite.

girls were made for elegance, dancing which is why their katas seem to look better.
kumite is more of a boy thing
strength, focus and agility.
it takes a lot more work for girls to get it to look any good. and they seem to be more scared and timid at first.

I can try to explain..

Kata performance is what is known as a 'closed' skill because the aim is to replicate the ideal performance under stressful conditions, ie gradings or competitions. The mere performance of kata can improve your bio mechanical action, your balance, ability to turn and raise and lower your body, etc.

However kumite is an 'open' skill which means you must adjust your techniques and movement according to the prevailing conditions. The opponent may be an attacker or a defender, a puncher or a kicker, flat-footed or very agile.. in other words, the opponents tactics affect your own responses.

Kata however contain responses to being grabbed and being struck and if your teacher understands kata and teaches it correctly then there are drills and individual techniques that can be extrapolated for use in sparring. There are also principles of karate that exist in kata that are directly applicable to sparring.

Ask your teacher.. if they don't know then ask them why not! If you are paying someone to teach you then they should know how to teach kumite and kata, shouldn't they?

Regards,
Boz

This had me puzzled for quite a while... for with the exception of very few techniques found in kata which I use in kumite I couldn't isolate any particular sets of moves.

Ironically it was training in jujitsu which led me to a defensive pattern against a typical front kick - lunge punch attack in kumite. I mentioned this to someone (you know who you are) who gave me the cryptic answer "P2"...

Looking at Pinan 2 I discovered similarities to taigyoku 1. "Very interesting" I thought!

Further discussion on the subject more recently led me to a discovery which now seems painfully obvious in relation to this particular defense I had "developed" for sparring. Talk about techniques within kata being hidden in plain sight!

If only I'd had a teacher who already knew this stuff... It seems there are some things which I have learnt the hard way, re-inventing the wheel, when the knowledge was there all along. And to think that almost everyone, once they have learnt the pattern for the 1st kata want to leap onto the next!

But maybe there really isn't anything more to the 1st kata than the pattern, or is there?


Mick