Might seem a rather stupid question to ask...when do you reckon is the ideal grade to start learning Bassai Dai?

I mean I'm a 7th Kyu, I know the pattern of Saifa well and can do it without any problems (well...apart from the final move...that shakes me a bit )...but I'm wondering if I should start trying to at least learn the pattern of Bassai? I've took part in a few runs of it and know a few of the moves I guess...

Should I just concentrate on my Saifa? Or ease up the pressure of later grades?

Good question,

Although we tend to teach and learn kata at a certain grade or belt colour, the fact is some people pick up kata much more easily than others. I have solved this problem by reducing the number of kata required to grade and expecting abetter performance and understandingof the purpose of the kata. Those that are capable of learning more kata and are keen to do so are able to learn more. In my dojo, Bassai Dai is not required as a grading kata until Brown belt.

Cheers,
Boz

I dont think there's anything wrong with learning the pattern of later kata's, as long as you dont neglect saifa.

Remember that you need saifa to grade to both green and blue belt, and no one will even look at your bassai dai until you grade to red belt.
To grade succesfully, you need to know more than just the pattern.. I still get pulled up on little things within saifa, and probally will still be doing things wrong up until Black belt..

However, I started learning seiunchin in depth when I was a blue belt, because the RM decided it should be my tournament kata. Next year I'll probally do empi for tournaments, and that's a kata that I wont even need for 3 grades!
However, I figure as long as I dont neglect bassai dai, it's all good.
Having a good tournament kata wont help me if I stand up at my brown belt grading, and cant do a decent grade kata.

Hope that helps

I'm 4th Kyu and I know all of the kata patterns up to and including sepai and sanseru but I know little more about the kata's beside the pattern. Bassai-Dai is my current grading kata and I devote all of my kata time to practising it or first kata.

I knew the Bassai_dai pattern before I graded to blue, and I knew Saifa before I graded to orange, which was good because both times I had to do the new kata at NAS training immediately afterwards.

When I grade to brown I will already know the pattern to Seiunchin and that will make it easy to learn how to perform it well (since that's the grading requirement) in a short space of time.

I think the more kata's you learn you begin to see similarities between them (especially if their origins are similar) and might make kata more interesting for you.

To Neko: I think 6th kyu is where you should be learning the Bassai Dai pattern, because you have done Saifa once already for a grading and it should be getting good enough to learn from. But please read down a little and you may see more of what I mean.

Goyle said:

Well it don't stop there!

Most people get a little grumpy about the "move your left hand a quarter-inch to the right" kind of correction, as opposed to "this is to the collar bone not ribs" type of adjustment.

I got grief over moves 2, 4 and 6 because RM wants my rear hand to move in more of an arc than I do it, and sometimes I don't have the wrist coming down a little past my front elbow. I find it cramps everything up and crosses my arms close-in right in front of my body - not my personal ideal I must say - and makes the front-back fist too jerky and robotic.

I don't like the way others do some parts, but that's only because of the way I interpret what I'm doing, not because it's what the club wants to see.

I was having a little discussion with the class (the one I instruct) on Sunday morning after an obscure 3-move combination (of the principle block and counter in a single movement) which I eventually convinced them could be deduced from Taikyoko Shodan. A 3rd kyu asked "why aren't we taught that way, rather than blocking a thigh-level front-kick coming from the left?"

My reply was a little half-baked and defending GKR but went along these lines:

1. GKR wants you to learn this kata and perform it in a certain way. To allow the average person off the street to get the pattern and movements in 12 lessons, "we" begin with a turn to the left into long-forward stance blocking lower block with the left hand, etc.

2. As you progress through coloured belts and do more partner work, one-step sparring and free sparring, and have the pattern down pat, GKR expects you to have a better more consistent stance, and to use hip movements and breathing patterns to illustrate / enhance performance.

3. So progression means adding the things that make both the appearance and performance of the kata better. You start out all robotic thinking only of the specific technique you are doing, move on to enhancing and focussing the techniques, then you will "see the opponent" and start to actually "perform" the kata.

4. At some point along the line you are introduced to "official GKR applications" (I was reticent to use the word "bunkai"). You may also ask what else is there? This is a true area of personal development, and a place where peers, within and outside GKR and even karate, are necessary.

I'm sure it sounded much better on Sunday morning ... ramble off ...

Thanks everyone

Trouble is, my Sensei sometimes makes all the class stay up for Bassai, regardless of their grade. Although he does mingle us with higher grades....

I heard from my friend (a 5th Kyu) that you have to know a bit Bassai for your Blue belt grading? Although I've got to admit he's definately not known for his accuracy...

Even then I'm thinking ahead. Ah well. I like a taste of new Kata.

I think he means as a blue belt, you must perform Bassai-Dai to get your red-belt, and do it again for your brown.

You have to do Saifa a second time for your grading from green to blue.

Thought so...in a way. Although his words were "Saifa and Bassai". But I think I get it now.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Interestingly enough, one of my sensei informed me that because I knew the pattern of seiunchin, I would be asked to stay up and do it for my red belt grading.
Thankfully, that was not the case, cause I was already wanting to pass out by saifa.

I've never seen people stay up past their grade kata at a grading here, but I haven't watched thaaat many.
Possibly just idle gossip then?

lol. I stayed up for Saifa when I didn't need it...I felt a bit alkward among 7th-4th Kyus*....but nobody told me I couldn't, so why not?

There was the exeption of one guy who was a 7th Kyu-ho, and he graded even though he was just training with us. Call me a scrooge but I thought that's unfair. I work my behind off nearly to fainting point, and I have this guy next to me taking it easy and grading.

But anyway. I'll just work on my Saifa some more...I have embarrassing moments of nearly falling over halfway through the kata. (the kicks)

Ok, extending on this subject a little..... when do most people think it's an "ok" time to start on the next kata along?

For example, a couple of weeks ago we were going through some advanced kata, and although I enjoyed doing sanseru, hangetsu really threw me..
It was kinda cool to go through the pattern, but seriously, it's a kata I will not even require for grading for about 3 years!!

Should we follow the gkr tournament rules of being allowed to do 2 kata above the highest grade level?
For example, a 6th - 4th kyu division could have people performing empi, because that's two kata above what a red belt would require for grading....

At least in the low to inermediate kyu grades I generally teach people one kata per grade. So by the time they start learning the next kata they should be able to:
1. demonstrate the sequence of the whole kata
2. demonstrate it with some degree of technical competence although there will still be a lot of work to do in that respect
3. have an understanding of some of the principles embodied in the kata
4. demonstrate their understanding of the principles through the example of a small number of bunkai

Over the next several grades they will continue to work on both the technical performance of the kata and an understanding (both physically and intellectually) of the principles it embodies.

In reality this is a process that should never really have an end-point IMO.

Mike

Within GKR you aren't required to show an understanding of the kata, just to perform it... so as far as performance goes you can learn a new kata almost immediately after you have learnt the last one...

If you do this you will find you will get to about 4th kyu (it happened to me at 5th kyu) and you will know the pattern and be able to perform them well to all kata required to grade you to shodan.... you will become very bored...

I'd suggest to at least focus on saifa for a little longer. iron out any little bad bits you may have... and do some research... find out what you are doing, if you can actually visualise proper and do-able applications it will enhance your performance of the kata and you wont get bored just going over the same pattern constantly...

Oh yes, and if you can find someone who can show you some realistic applications which fit closely to the kata movements then you can find you have a renewed enthusiasm for practicing the pattern.


Mick

Heh. Unless you get shown it nearly every week. Then it bores into your skull...

Sorry but its probably a stupid question but what is saifa?

I am already begining to learn Bassai Dai, aswell as Tekki Shodan, 'phew pant pant' its awfuly long kata to learn, which explains why in my club we learn it in stages over the three brown belts brown/ brown single/ brown double and thats for both adults and children.

Is it true that an advanced class is so much faster than the beginners and intermediate lessons when I was a blue through to red and then yellow through to purple double strip, the advanced classes are also awfuly big and I can't learn in a big class.

Maybe I'm being overlogical but if Bassai Dai is required for your 4th kyu grading then why bother "learning" it until you have graded to 5th kyu.

I see too many students waste their time polluting themselves with half-baked understandings of "senior" kata when they by rights should be putting their efforts into those kata that they immediately require for their next grade.

What seems to often happen is 6th kyus start learning "patterns" of bassai dai etc and lose relevant time that could otherwise be spent refining and properly understand saifa. "I know saifa already".

Too many people think that knowing patterns of many kata gives you some mystical seniority or ability to find greater meaning in kata in general. Rubbish.

Maybe if people spent a little more time focusing their efforts on those kata that they should be learning at appropriate times, they would develop a little more strategically or at least thoroughly through their kata syllabus.

It's bad enough that GKR generally only teaches the patterns of kata, but I'd like to think that at least some students would like to learn the substance of kata. Otherwise lets all learn the kata over 12 weeks and be black belts in 4 months....

The only error in this logic is that GKR has a blended kata system, so the functionality of learning kata in sequence is perhaps a little jaded.

JC

Saifa is done in Goju and Shito-ryu schools, and I dare say a few others. Theres a few threads here discussing it in depth with links to videos if you want to have a look at it further.



How big? Gotta agree too big is counterproductive.

jccool, stop being overlogical as I feel you are being a little bit nosey, I am already a 4th kyu my belt is purple double strip and I am learning both tekki shodan and for next year bassai dai for when I am a 3rd Kyu, (we don't do tekki nidan or tekki sandan in my club) as far as I am concerned 5th kyu is purple belt in my club

I don't no ANYTHING about GKR what it is, so what it doesn't mean anything to me I live in the uk NOT australia.

Just because I come from a different part of the world then to you the same rules apply to respest fellow karateka, DON'T poke your nose in.

matt, I mean big by 20 0r 30 people, to much for me, I'm not lazy or anything like that, I just find it easier to learn in a smaller class.

The forum is open to all replies Emma... Although being from the same part of the world as yourself - I do notice certain differences in the styles of karate.

It's just something that IS.

But you are 100% right when you say that it's easier to learn in a smaller class - I think we all find that.

JC? Maybe it is a good thing to show lower graded students a higher kata..... perhaps it gives them something to strive for? But I agree that they shouldn't be learning said kata all the time.

Emma - unfortunately your comment doesn't make sense so I can't comment. Though I suspect it does not relate much directly to GKR so there is probably no need. Though if you were under the impression my post was having a go at you, it certainl was not.

Wombat - there is nothing wrong with showing students kata they do not require, though there is little value in teaching students kata they do not require. Unfortunately not many students are discerning enough to recognise that time should be spent on those things that matter. Karate is largely about building new skills one step at a time, not developing them adhoc. There are times when a global comprehension really does help the learning process though.

JC

Emma, JCCool....I suspect you're talking at cross purposes because....

JCCool is talking about Go Kan Ryu (remember this ain't just a GKR forum these days)
Emma is talking about Shotokan

Emma, as someone already mentioned, Saifa is a Goju Ryu kata. You won't encounter it in the Shotokan syllabus. And that's no big deal, you'll still have enough different kata to keep you busy.

Mike

Ahh

See I should come here more often...last I was here it was a GKR forum!

Not to worry...at least we can start talking about karate now

Thanks Mike.

JC

I don't really think it's a stupid question at all - I can ask way stupider ones Anyway, I reckon that if you know saifa well you can start learning the basic pattern of bassai dai. Just don't forget to keep perfecting saifa as well.

But don't forget - your belt doesn't prove much - it only means you've got experience. I've see yellow belts that are better than blue belts!!



That was what Dale said.

Aza03

I like trying out new katas. It's kinda fun seeing what you've got to get good at in a sense. Like Seiunchin you have to have a clean-looking sumo stance (at least from what I heard around anyway) etc.

Like what was the point of everyone from 10th to 3rd Kyu (back a while now) trying out Sanseru? No point really. Just a taster. Fun.

Aza03, nice response lol. I'll try and keep perfecting all my katas, just like anyone else I guess. Especially after hearing some blackbelts failed their grading because of Taigyoku Shodan!

I think it lets you know not all of the higher katas are hard, and some look plain ridiculous at times.