OK I'm aware that Saifa and Bassai-Dai were originally GoJo and Shotokan katas respectively, but should we be doing these two katas in succession when they are so radically different?

Do kata's vary like that in the original Shotokan and Gojo kata series? I just feel like I'm doing a completely different type of karate when I'm doing Bassai-Dai compared to when I'm doing Saifa.

What little playing with Saifa I've done I'd say it doesn't feel terribly alien, but then I have just taught myself it from watching a video. I imagine that decent Goju people would wince at the sight of it.

I think its fair to say that different katas from the Shorin tradition (ie. the one that gave rise to Shotokan) can have a very different feel when compared to each other, never mind making comparisons between them and Goju kata.

I don't think there's anything wrong as such in practising kata from both traditions. But it is difficult to fathom the reason for the order of progression of kata in GKR. I think that most Goju people would argue that, if you're going to practice Goju kata, then Sanchin should be first and foremost in the order of progression.

Mike

First and foremost???

How about we actually do it....???

There seem to be as many Goju schools beginning with the Gekisai kata and progressing to Saifa and not introducing Sanchin until later as there are who begin with Sanchin. Maybe a quick survey of the Goju folks here? I know we have some...

Aside from I know Bassai Dai has been significantly modified, both contain a wide range of applications and if there was to be time spent on studying them for application then I'd choose one or the other. Not both.


Mick

We do 5 Taikyoku katas before you move onto gekisai, so at about 8th to 7th kyu most students start gekisai. There is a lot to learn at this level as then we have gekisai ni, gekisai san which is a 2 person kata, gekisai bunkai which you must also be able to perform with a partner, then there are other supplementry katas that we start to play with just for fun and to broaden your horizons. Then comes saifa and sanchin we teach these at about the same time, although most students know the pattern to sanchin by the time they get to this level. It takes years to be able to perform sanchin properly and to be able to do it with testing.

Rocket

Do they build up gradually in complexity whilst maintaining the same fundamental pattern?

And/or do they get longer?

Our taikyoku katas are all based on the H pattern, they get more complex as you progress up to number 5.

But then there are 2 more versions of each of these 5 which are just for supplementry training for higher grades some of them are really complex and require a great deal of concentration to get through, they are heaps of fun.

Then we have 3 other taikyokus that are done in motodachi (fighting stance).these are kind of like doing kumite drills but in the H pattern.

So all up we have 18 taikyoku katas to play with, only the original 5 are grading requirement, the other 13 are simply there for a bit of variety. Sometimes we will spend a whole class just doing taikyoku katas, to most people this would sound boring,but they are actually quite physically and mentally challenging when done at speed.

rocket

I think the biggest change for us is when we go from kihon, then the 5 heian kata, and the next kata is suddenly Tekki Shodan. The Tekki series are really nothing like any other kata we do. I guess it can be quite an adjustment, and most people just treat Tekki Shodan as something they have to put up with until they can get their 3rd kyu and start work on Bassai Dai.

A class I went to a little while back went through Tekki Shodan.. it was quite similar to our Naifanchi Shodan, which is a kata I rather like.


Mick

Hi Mick

I'm sure you realise already, they are one and the same. Its a shame, the Tekki versions feel like such an abomination to me because of the deep stance. As a result most people are not interested because they simply don't understand the kata or its application.

Mike

Hi Mike

Oh, yes. I wasn't exactly clear on that, was I? If I recall correctly, Tekki 1 was virtually identical in movement with the exception of a front kick added somewhere in the sequence. And the stance used was kiba dachi (horse stance) throughout the kata.


Mick