I have been reading a lot of posts concerning bunkai (or the lack thereof) in GKR kata. Many people from different styles have put forward their views, and there seems to be near consensus that GKR sucks with the teaching of bunkai.
So I thought to myself, "What is the purpose or point of bunkai in this day and age?". Hear me out.

I come from Region 16 (Canberra), and personally, the instructors down here (mostly) seem to have a pretty good grasp on bunkai. It seems to be taught fairly readily throughout the state. I believe bunkai is an important aspect of GKR Karate; it furthers our comprehension of the kata, helps us visualise what we are meant to be doing and is quite fun to learn.
But is the application of a kata really necessary in the current age? Think about it. Most of us will never get into a situation where we need to use these techniques, and if we do, generally speaking, it's going to be over very quickly, one way or another. Also, a lot of the bunkai from our kata is highly obscure and only applies to very specific situations.
I do agree that we should use bunkai to understand our kata more, but the absence of it really does not make much of a difference, especially to lower grades, who are already confused enough as it is with all the other information we're giving them.

Kata has specific moves. They are set, measured, definite. Understanding the use of them helps, but is not essential. You can still teach a student "put your arm here, your legs like this, hips pointing there".
First and foremost, let's not forget we are a martial ART. Note the last word - art. In today's society, martial arts are not used primarily as a weapon or method of self protection. They are used as a form of self expression, exercise and fun. Few of us have the discipline of the old masters, who mostly fell into martial arts out of necessity. Many of us have gazed upon a great modern artwork and not understood it; but many of us still appreciated it. Complete understanding and knowledge is not always necessary to appreciate the beauty of something.

Ultimately, there are so many differing views on this subject, there will never be one completely correct one. Like life, I guess we have to learn to compromise. If you're dissatisfied with the level of bunkai you are being taught, ask your instructor. And if they don't know, ask their instructor. And if you can't find what you need within GKR, maybe you should step back and assess what you really want from them. GKR is what it is - like all things, it has it's limits.

Must disagree there. Firstly common assaults havent changed that much since Cain and Abel duked it out in the garden of eden when you think about it. Also If you subscribe to the school of thought that each technique has mutliple applications you would see that one kata move can teach many very effective defenses. Take it from me that when someone who knows shows you its like a veil has been lifted and you can actually start to understand what karate is, not what karate looks like.

Asking a question like that was my first step in the journey - welcome aboard

Hi Skye Rachel

What is the point of doing kata if your not going to learn the applications?

Is gkr a martial art? The way I remember gkr it is a martial sport, at gkr kata is to get the next belt or to get points at a tournament, the kumite you do is shiai kumite or point fighting wich is designed for tournament.

When I was at gkr I too thought I was learning some cool applications, but now I realize that most of them were crud. The fact is gkr do very little on bunkai because they simply dont know what the bunkai is. If performing bunkai was an event in nas gkr would probably start teaching it to their students, I dont know where they would learn it from though. I'm pretty sure Bob Sullivan doesnt even know it, as they wouldnt do the katas the way they do if they actually new the applications to them.

So if you want to do martial sport then stay at gkr and learn kata their way, just like you would at dance classes. IF you want to do martial art, open your eyes up and get out and have a look at some of the traditional clubs, I did and it was the best decision that I have ever made. Get out there and learn there is so much more.

Have you ever wondered why gkr dont let their students train with other clubs? Its because they know that they just dont compare. My instructors encourage me to go out and learn from other guys, there has been times when they have taken me to other dojos and introduced me to guys I can learn from. They do this because they have nothing to hide.

I'm sorry I got a bit off track, but I just feel bad for people who are training at gkr, there are a lot of good people at gkr, some of which I am good friends with. Its such a shame to see such good people being ripped off.

Rocket

Skye has said that she - and the other students - are taught some bunkai in regarding to kata. It may not be as advanced as other schools - but in most cases it's enough to satisfy the students curiousity as to why they are doing what they're doing.

As to why GKR doesn't compere with other clubs..... It all depends what you want out of karate really, If you want to learn basic karate, make friends, enter tournaments and win a coupla medals thats fine - I know that's what I joined for

But, I'm aware of GKR's limitations, thats why I look elsewhere for what I'm not getting at GKR. Having trained with Sionnagh in Perth, attended Goju classes in Sydney and an active subscriber to Boz' ShotoJournal - as well as making inroads into other Martial-Arts, I feel that I'm making an effort.

None of my Instructors have a problem with me poking my nose into other schools and forms of Martial-Arts - or if they do, they haven't said so - not a great deal they could do about it anyway

Hi Tom,
I've got three of you signed up on here now
Cheers,
Boz

3 Toms? Ye gods, what could be worse?


Anon

Without wishing to appear rude, that tells me pretty much everything I need to know about the bunkai you’re being taught. If it only applies to very specific situations then I’m afraid it is nonsense.



Again, this says to me that the bunkai being taught is impractical and makes no sense. After they’ve learnt a couple of kata my students generally ask about bunkai BEFORE they’ve even learnt the whole sequence of the kata. They usually find that having a rudimentary understanding of some bunkai helps them remember the kata.



Like you say, people do martial arts for different reasons, but lets not also forget that ‘martial art’ contains the word ‘martial’. If all you want is sport and fun then fine, no need for bunkai and no need for kata – unless you simply view it as performance art. But if you profess to address the needs of self-defence – which GKR does claim – and you practice kata then you really do need to try and understand what the kata is for. Otherwise you’re just wasting student’s valuable training time.

I’ve recently come across the analysis of bunkai for Saifa on Matb’s unofficial GKR site. Rachel, what do you think of the bunkai he shows for Saifa?

http://www.gkrkarate.org/pages/Kata/essays/saifaf.html

Mike

Yes Skye, GKR does offer some bunkai, but if you think about the bunkai taught to us and try i tout you will find 95% of it is garbage and wont work for anyone let alone for different ages, genders, or body structures...


From training with mick and also from my kung fu training i have discovered some sensible applications that are usable and that do work (even for a weakling girl like me)...

If the application taught doesn't work for you and you cant do it, find one that does.... ask questions of some skilled people to help guide you to find some of these answers...



One of the moves in saifa was taught to me as crushing somebodies skull between your fist and an open hand...... i dont know anyone who is able to or WOULD do that in self defence..... it's complete garbage..... instead that move could simply be a release from a wrist grab and the 'smash' at the end could just be an emphasis on the power required to make the release work...


(disclaimer - i thought of that application example in a matter on 2 seconds on the spot and it may or may not actually work - it was a spur of the moment thought)


good luck in your search for workable applications skye, but once you have been shown some ways of identifying them they become easier to find for yourself...

Three Poms
Anon Too or Two or whatever

I really don't need any more bunkai - my training is already fantastic. I've made really close friends, had great experiences, and even won a few trophies. GKR is fine just the way it is - for me.


That is untrue. Instructors can not cross-train. Students are welcome to train wherever and with whoever they wish, be it Kung Fu, Shotokan or Tai Chi.


Well, I do not believe I am being ripped off, especially seeing as I don't pay for any classes, ever. And I'm sure the tens of thousands of other students who love GKR don't feel ripped off either. GKR has reached out to mothers, children, disabled and elderly people. What other martial art club or school can boast such a diverse range? And don't you think you are cheapening it for the black belts in GKR who worked hard for their rank?

I thought this was a GKR Forum. Is there anyone on this entire board who LIKES Go Kan Ryu?

Not sure about elsewhere but here only the instructors are disuaded from cross-training, and that's while they're teaching. Regular students can go and look into other styles if they want Senseis who have done other styles previously are more than happy to talk through their experience with you.


Extremely limited, and a lot of the time it may not be accurate or is the most extreme bunkai some one could think but it at least gives the idea you're doing something.


A few people I know have said that they doubt they will continue with GKR until BB, but they feel that it has given them an introduction to martial arts they may not have otherwise have had. I wont say that I've got the most extensive martial arts experience there is on offer but I wont say I'm ripped off either. I've made friends and met some pretty great people. And I know one shodan and one first kyu who havent done any other style but have worked hard to get where they are.

Back on topic:
Bunkai is lacking in the depth that it should be in GKR. Its the one area I will happily ask, and think they should, expand on but there's is a vague idea there, and given the extensiveness of the club it may take a while for them to introduce it into the sylabus in the future.

Skye Rachel, I guess your view on kata is that if the bunkai doesn't make sense, and you can't find any that do, then maybe we should just appreciate kata for its 'artistic' value.

Martial ballet?

Anybody who actually wants to learn how to fight using karate methods would be better off leaving this alone, use their time more constructively etc.

Me!

*Jumps up and down and waves hand*

We could focus more on bunkai, but then we would have to sacrifice other areas, which need just as much work.

I do feel that in our region we perhaps get more bunkai work than many others, just going on what has been said by different forum members.
However, perhaps a special class devoted to bunkai could be introduced?
*shrugs again*

I think it is important to remeber however, that we have classes for all ages and abilities, and if we did more complex bunkai in class, it wouldn't be beneficial for many of the children.
More of something to be covered in seniors/closed classes, if the desire is there?

I cross trained in karate, taekwondo and a bit of BJJ pretty much the whole time I instructed. I really didnt care and Im pretty sure RM knew about it and didnt care either. You would be surprised at how common it actually is, almost epidemic I would say. The reason for this is that comes a time when you get beyond the gkr format class. Ive read all the newsletters and magazine articles about perfecting basics, but training a black belt the same way as a white belt isnt the way to help accomplish that goal. Doing basics in combination isnt either - the mind thirsts for deeper understanding. It was at this point I started reading about bunkai/oyo and with the guidance of others (much of it here) suddenly so much made sense. Pieces fell into place. Its fantastic you are enjoying your training, but never lose the desire to learn more.

You are indeed fortunate you are learning some kata techniques - so many dont get anything at all. May I suggest to add some depth to you training, next time suggest to your instructor you practice some of the techniques with a partner. then try take it further and see what you can make of the technique.


I started this forum in the hopes of learning and sharing knowledge amongst like minded individuals. It succeeded for me beyond my wildest expectations. Nothing here (well, mostly...there are occurances) is said as a gkr bash, simply to try and spread the knowledge to those of us who cant get it where we should - the dojo.

Well that’s great Rachel, I’m glad you’re enjoying your training. But I thought the discussion was about: what’s the point in practising bunkai and how well does GKR address the subject?

My reply was in no way meant to belittle your enjoyment of your training, but to address what seemed to be a misunderstanding on your part regarding bunkai. Given that you started the topic I assumed you’d be willing to discuss it in more depth.

Mike

*puts hand up*
I like GKR. It no longer provides everything I'm looking for, but I still like it. GKR teaches kata for performance, not self defence, and the "bunkai" provided by GKR fits this. Some people are happy with GKR training, some people have never tried it and don't like the principles, some try it and outgrow it and move on.
Why do we do "bunkai" in GKR? To get the performances looking good. Why do we do it in some other places? To get the techniques effective and remembered.

GKR for many, many people is mostly a form of exercise (for adults) and discipline & fun (for kids). Those that are interested in the "martial" side of the art either ask about bunkai, or cross train (to deepen their knowledge and understanding). For the rest of us, GKR is fine the way it is.
Why does everyone point the finger at GKR? If you are curious, ask. If you want more, cross train. It is up to the individual.


Well, I think I've spotted the problem; no, I don't want to learn how to fight, to use your words. Furthest thing from my mind.


Valid point, and I truly agree with you. But I am only in the earlier stages of my training, and when I do reach BB, I'm sure I will want more knowledge and understanding of my art, just as you did.

Perhaps its because, in its marketing spiel, GKR does claim to address self-defence. And it also claims that kata practice improves combative skill. SDC's do tell people that they'll learn how to defend themselves by studying GKR, I mean just look at the name: SELF-DEFENCE consultant. I'm pretty sure SDC's don't say "but if you want to learn to defend yourself you'll have supplement your training elsewhere".

If they just told prospective punters it was a sport and fun to do then I don't think anyone would have an issue about GKR as self-defence.

Mike

Hi Skye...

nobody is critising you or GKR here.... a question was asked by you as to why or why not bunkai???

i believe the discussion is answering this...

You may very well have been lucky enough to have been signed up by an instructor who has some further knowledge on bunkai... for the most part, GKR instructors have no clue on this...

If you enjoy your training with GKR no one is going to tell you not to train there. what you are receiving here is valid points as to why others choose not to train with GKR. These points may not appeal to you right now but may do in the furture... they may never appeal to you...

Try not to take peoples opinions as an attack on GKR. Most of us here are or have been students with GKR and do value it for what it has done for us... just accept that there are many students and instructors present who choose not to train with GKR and their viewpoints will be different from those who are die-hard GKR fans...

Keep training...

Well said Susan.

When would you like to learn Saifa Bunkai?

Rocket

Teach us Saifa first

Hello

I don't want you to think I'm being rude in anyway way but a statement like this always raises the question in my mind: Why learn karate if you don't want to learn how to at least defend yourself? There are a LOT of sports out there that will make you more fitter or stronger than karate. Karate was not designed as an aerobic exercise. Karate is a martial art. Therefore it involves fighting. Karate without fighting... is not karate anymore. It is tae-bo or somesuch thing. Sure it has a lot of potential great side affects, such as fitness, but I consider these bonuses to the main focus.

A further point that any organisation that sells itself on teaching self-defence to people really ought to teach people how to defend themselves. If not then it is misselling itself, and there will be people out there with a false sense of security. Furthermore you run into people that take up positions in security work etc. truely believing they can handle themselves, when the cold hard truth is that what they have taught is complete and utter nonsense. So it's not just about honesty anymore, it's about safety.

Kata is the heart of karate. Without good bunkai kata becomes nothing more than a choreographed dance. Good bunkai.... bunkai from an attack that may actually be used in a real fight. So not; this blocks a mae geri, or this blocks an oi zuki, because people just don't fight like that. So instead bunkai from; s/he swings a Saturday night haymaker at your head, s/he grabs your lapels and goes to headbutt, s/he pushes you etc. etc.

Kata can be practiced alone, in your house etc. But eventually to get the most out of it you need to partner up and start working throught this stuff and finding what does or not does work for you. That's what kata is about. A database of potentially lethal techniques, not something that should just look pretty to win the local tournaments.

Just my opinions and I'm sorry if these upset anyone in any way
warmest regards
Angela

Hi there

Just got back from this mornings training session, we went over the bunkai for gekisai, saifa and seeinchin, we did each one about half a dozen times as well as drilling the katas. It really cemented in for me how important they are and how much fun they are, I would say that 99% of gkr would love it if they knew it, I raelly feel for you guys.

Rocket

I was actually an SDC, and yes, you're right, we do tell people it will teach them self defence. Now, I have no idea what goes on in other regions, but here in good ole' Region 16, we tend to do a fair bit of self defence in class. We had a self defence week recently, where that's all we did in class. Plus, isn't any martial art a form of self defence in itself? Learning to punch and kick more accurately and without hurting oneself definitely scores high on my list as good self defence.

Take the above example; I know that I have been in classes/taught classes that focused on ways to aviod injury from/counter these attacks. In our senior classes, we always do bunkai. I'm simply suggesting it's not as imperative for everyone as it is for you or me or some other martial art nut.

What I meant by not wanting to learn how to fight is simply that I would not use that word to accurately describe it. The word 'fight' just makes me feel like a big schoolyard bully.

Ultimately, the point (I think) I'm trying to make is that in most real life situations, if you have martial arts experience, you should have the upper hand (generally), as opposed to this drunken fool who might be attacking you. And when have any of you been attacked by a guy in a gi and a black belt? Hopefully never. Haymakers are pathetically weak, almost anyone could dodge/block them. Have any of you seen a street fight? Really quite amusing. It's over in about 30 seconds because all they do is grab each other and roll around on the ground...really, do I need in-depth bunkai to get out of THAT situation? Maybe if the guy was 7 foot 9 and built like a semi-trailer...

Hi Rod,

Do you do the two person drill for Gekisai which involves bumping and biting?

Boz
ps. Hope so as they could be enjoyable with one female GKR student I'd like to torture

Hi Skye.
It does sound like you get more exposure to it than most.
It may surprise you to know that there are indeed kata applications to deal with exactly that scenario you described

HI Boz

Its more like scratching, pinching and biting with the occassional liverpool kiss.

Rocket

Just referring to what i thought was the original thought for this thread, i believe each person's response depends on their reason for studying karate.

Firstly, what is bunkai? my ?definition? is the study of the application or purpose of martial arts techniques. For me, this includes kihon (basics) and kata (forms). So the purpose of bunkai is to help a karate-ka to understand why/where/how a technique is used.

What is the point of bunkai in this day and age? uummm, i think i might repeat myself here ... "to help a karate-ka to understand why/where/how a technique is used." The purpose of bunkai hasn't changed.

Perhaps the question should be "Is bunkai relevant, or needed, in this day and age?"

Each person will have their own opinion on this, mostly dependant on their reason for learning/studying/practicing a martial art.

Reason: "I want to learn to fight / defend myself / defend my loved ones."
Desire for bunkai: Probably very high.

Reason: "I want to push myself / learn about myself / do something different"
Desire for bunkai: Wants some bunkai

Reason: "I want to compete in tournaments / grade to the next belt"
Desire for bunkai: May not consider bunkai important.

Reason: "I want to achieve something spiritual / get fit / lose weight through martial arts "
Desire for bunkai: Probably none.

Some people don't want bunkai. They are happy to learn the moves without understanding the why's and what for's. Some people may consider this learning karate at a superficial level only. But it works for some people.

Some people want a little bunkai. These people want a little more so they understand why they do something. e.g. why you turn your hips off & on during blocks and strikes

Some people want a lot. They seek a deeper understanding about applying techniques / kata. And probably seek their own interpretations / applications. e.g. can i use that block to 'destroy' someone's guard?

So, is bunkai relevant in martial arts in this day and age? My opinion is "YES". Why do i think bunkai still has a purpose? Because i do martial arts for all the reasons i said above. (get fit / lose weight / discover something about myself / compete in tournaments / grade to my next kyu / defend my loved ones / to be the best karate-ka i can be)

For me bunkai helps me understand why i do something. I seek that understanding. I think it helps my techniques to do what they are meant to do. (but then, i'm a bit of a perfectionist )

If you don't want bunkai and you are happy with your training, then i'm happy for you. (this is not meant to come across sarcasticly). *looks for a non-sarcasm tag*

How much importance you put on bunkai is dependant on your reason for training, and everyone's reason for learning a martial art is slightly different.

I think my rambling has gone on too long now, so please forgive my babblings as my humble opinion only.

cheers

andy G

Hi Rod,
I remember running through a drill with Patrick McCarthy that involved biting, bumping and a head butt.. no scratching though :-)

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Boz

All of our bunkai are done with a partner, we have set standard bunkai for most of our kata. They usuually have eight parts to learn, four attacking parts and four defensive parts. The defensive parts are literally different parts of the kata. We teach these after the student has learnt the kata or sometimes at the same time as learning the kata, they partner up and do the bunkai together.

When you get it up to speed it looks like jyu kumite, they are heaps of fun. After they have learnt the set bunkai the students are then encouraged to start exploring into the kata some more and come up with their own applications.

SO in effect the set bunkai that we do is just a stepping stone to give the student some ideas and to make them to think more about the kata and come up with their own applications.

In answer to your question about gekisai, we do the bunkai how I described above but it has no headbutts etc. It has a few foot sweeps and a takedown in it though.

Rocket

Hi Rod,

Gekisai was created for PE Karate and similar to Pinan Nidan, the applications are more suited to a karateka vs another karateka type training. The drill I was shown was Patrick's interpretation I think and it was a lot of fun as well.

Cheers,
Boz

No, I don't think it necessarily is. Its quite well documented that 20th century karate-do arose as a method of self-development, rather than self-defence. Karate was changed dramatically in this process. This change in emphasis, technique and training practices mirrors exactly what happened in a number of other martial arts - Aikido, Judo, Kendo etc. etc.



Well its better than nothing I suppose, but sometimes its not much better. I think it can be argued that many of the techniques and strategies of modern sports karate are likely to actually decrease your self-defence ability.



Actually yes. I worked as a bouncer for a few years in my youth. I've seen and experienced enough to get an idea of what violence can really involve.



Sometimes that's all that may be involved, if you're lucky. But what about the times when its an unprincipled thug who really wants to do you some harm? And anyway, if you don't train to deal with someone grabbing you and rolling around then you probably won't be prepared to deal with it.

I must admit I can't help getting the impression that you're rather negative about the idea of applying kata techniques simply because you're not familiar with the subject. From what you've said, I remain to be convinced that the bunkai you've been taught is actually of any value.

Again I'd ask you to consider Matb's bunkai for Saifa. He shows that standard GKR bunkai. What do you think of that? He then shows some of his own ideas or ideas he's got elsewhere. How do you think that compares? Is it better, worse, mixed? Is any of it of any value? Would you do it the same? Or differently perhaps - if so, how?

Mike

I agree his bunkai is somewhat strange and not entirely what I would call correct or effective.
You are right though, it is an newer idea for me. But hearing lots of opinions has helped, and I think I might look into finding out some more bunkai.

Do it Skye Rachel, I guarantee you will love it, your karate will really start to expand.

Rocket

Have a look at the UK GKR forum. There's a thread there on Saifa bunkai on which I've posted some of my musings in the last couple of days. I'm no expert on this kata - I don't practice any kata from the Goju lineage other than Sanchin. But I've kicked around a few ideas, based on what I've learnt from various sources. I've just added a few videos as well, although the quality of these isn't so great. Have a look and see what you think.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Would you mind posting the link to your site where you've hosted the video and perhaps a quick rundown? It'd make it a lot easier for people to find

(There's nothing wrong with the quality either)


Mick

OK will do. Watch this space. The accompanying text is on the other forum so I'll compile all that together first. Of course, I've not got to the end of the kata yet...

Mike