I've just been watching the GKR "shotokan" kata available here:
http://www.gkrkarate.org/pages/Kata/katavf.html

I'm curious.... is this the way the kata is normally performed? Are bassai dai and empi always performed that slow? Is it seen as acceptable to be breathing that loudly? I'm not trying to be rude, but I am somewhat perplexed (and interested) in why the kata have been adapted to be performed like this. Bassai dai in particular has been radically altered, and I can see why there would be problems with identifying appropriate bunkai considering the changes.

No, that is not how the kata is normally performed. No, it shouldn't be that slow. Yes, we are encouraged to breathe like a steam train.

And i might add that that is a very badly performed kata when it comes down to techniques, focus, and general posture...

That's what I suspected. It seems crazy that people will happily stick such a poor performance up for everyone to view.

i wouldnt send my students for grading with a kata like that if you get what i mean...

MatB takes a lot of stick from people on both sides of the fence, and the fact he is still around is a testament to either his dedication or foolishness, depending on your point of view. (And no, I don't really care to hear people's views on that!)

There were a lot of people dissatisfied from buying (after having them pushed) the official videos and then being told "oh no, you don't do it the way the video shows, that's just meant to be a general guide" because they're so far out of date in terms of changes being made, so Mat took up the challenge and produced his own set of free unofficial videos as a general guide. That way people haven't spent (wasted) money buying junk.

Getting people who are prepared to put themself out there by being in a video available freely online is a task in itself. It can be pretty much a case of 'last person to leave the room turn the lights off. Oh yeah and you're volunteered to be in the video as well'.

I am quite sure that Mat took a fair bit of heat from doing this from the hierarchy since it may well have cut into video sales. Nevermind that the videos should have been binned and not kept being replicated for sale once the GKR announced that DVDs were 'forthcoming'. And he copped criticisms for the quality of the performances from students.

The only real problem here is that while his heart is definitely in the right place, he is being loyal to and supporting people and an organisation who really don't give a crap about his efforts to help students learn.

Angela, from where I sit it appears you have a good instructor and that the developing trend is that Shotokan clubs are starting to be seen to be emerging from the dark ages (i.e. the 70s) and many modern clubs now include practical applications in their training. GKR is still firmly stuck in that era where "bunkai" is considered not relevant and that good- or strong- looking technique is considered to be good technique. But since such things appeared to be common a mere 30 years ago it's probably too soon to start worrying about it now....


Mick

Nicely said in matb's defence. At least he has a go, and gave the club a website in the years it took to get the official one up, and his is still the better resource.

I would say it was done that slowly in order to make it easier for people learning the kata to follow the moves and get an idea of the floor plan. Ive certainly never seen it that slow out here, but excessively heavy breathing is very much a club feature.

The only real problem here is that while his heart is definitely in the right place, he is being loyal to and supporting people and an organisation who really don't give a crap about his efforts to help students learn.

Mat gets his rewards from the students that he has helped, while he is mindful of the GKR heirachy but he is no ones puppet, i personally think he is way overdue his shodan ho, i wonder why he has not got it yet?.

People are always quick to critisise mat for what he has done/is doing without knowing him, he is learning and trying to share his knowledge to help others, if he finds he is wrong about something he will admit it and correct it, some say he shouldnt be sharing what he is not 100% sure about, i dont agree, i personally would have ten of mat, than 1 all knowledgable so far up there own posteria 10 th dan.Its the human way to critisise rather than see the posatives in something.

For anyone reading this these are my opinions not anyone elses.
Nigel

Many of us poor schmucks don't have a clue anyway. Methinks GKR consider Bunkai outdated because that sounds better than "we don't have a clue what this kata is supposed to do".

This is Matb's explanation of why the kata is performed so oddly:



The video's are very useful if you want to jog your memory on a certain detail of a kata...
And he puts updated versions up too, as they come along.

to him!

Hi Angela,

Is there somewhere we can get the gist of the 'correct' Bassai Dai that you know of?

Now don't misquote me, I didn't say that the Bassai I do is necessarily the "correct" way.

http://www.shotojukukai.com/kata/kata.htm

This page has Kanazawa sensei performing kata. The Bassai Dai is very similar to the way it is performed at my dojo, although there are still a few minor differences. Sorry to those with dial up, these are pretty hefty files and take a fair while to load, even on broadband.

There are a couple of issues I had in particular with the GKR video version of Bassai. Firstly there are times when movements are unnecessarily big and flowery, and thus leave the centreline exposed. From a performance point of view maybe it is considered pretty, but from a self-defence point of view it presents a potentially vulnerable area. There are movements which are extremely exaggerated as well, which IMO loses any viable application.

With some of us just having gone to train for the night with a local Shotokan club where the class spent a little time on Empi, I can say that it reinforced the difference it makes to train with an instructor who knows the kata he is teaching... the way they do Empi has a totally different "feel" to it, and I don't think I have ever before seen such a powerful display of technique in this kata.


Mick

Hi Angela

I trained in GKR for a few years and then went onto learn Shotokan and Goju and basically I had to 'relearn' or better 'unlearn' most of the kata I had 'learnt' in GKR.

I must point out (as you no doubt already know) that there are many different versions of any kata and some could say that GKR is just another version. I personally would rather learn a kata taught by someone who knows the kata.

Big

It's been a long day at work...

What do you guys mean exactly when you say a sensei "knows" a kata?

How can you honesty say they aren't as full of rubbish as the GKR instructors you did away with?



Sorry, didn't mean that.

I've never actually been a member of GKR, however your question is very valid. I think a lot of it comes down to common sense. If your sensei is teaching you bunkai for attacks that just don’t happen (stepping in with a front kick for example), or bunkai that would never work (at best), or is dangerous (at worst) then it is obvious that they don’t have a clue and are in fact just giving some crud bunkai to pander to the self-defence lot. I prefer to see my bunkai in terms of principles anyway – once I understand the basic principles and have an understanding of how my body works, how an attacker’s body works and how they both work in relation to each other then, in my opinion, it becomes a lot easier to extrapolate workable bunkai from a kata. If you only think about it in terms of techniques then you end up with a million and one things to learn, and no real understanding about why they work.

Something just occured to me after reading this again.

Could the reason for this be that there is traditionally a lot of heavy breathing in GoJu kata. I remember doing sanchin many many years ago and I think most of the people I was training with were on the verge of getting Haemorrhoids (sp?). Could it be that people have confused this aspect of GoJu kata where they make sense with shotokan kata?

Tex

Ibuki breathing in kata in GKR is largely non-existant.

The breathing that is being referred to in the kata relates more directly to that of a boxer exhailing with their punches.

GKR generally sells this breathing by way of telling students that it adds to the "strength" of the kata and gives the impression of "focus" in executing techniques.

It's difficult to confuse something that isn't known in the first place.

JC

I've always created a breath out when preforming a technique because whatever it was that I was doing be it kick, punch or whatever, it forced the air out of me, not because I intentionally made it. The only time I'll change is while doing tournament kata, It seems to add a bit after the . on the score card

For those people in GKR, pick a senior BB in your class and take a chance to watch them do a kata. Hardly any of them breath like a steam train, the breathing is measured and more appropriate to the technique. They may even sound like a boxer when they do short, rapid techniues. One sensie in my region performs a kata which I think is Shisochin, and because he is a physically strong guy it is good to listen to his breathing when he performs each move; neither exhausting himself (by breathing too hard) nor holding his breath & straining.

I've found that by breathing like: "whoosh, whoosh" just exhausts me without making the techniques feel more powerful. Personally, I like to control my breathing by exhaling rapidly only when a large amount of strength or speed is needed, but if the move is slower and more fluid, then I ease up the breathing; it makes me feel more in control of the kata or combination.

JC, that's what I referring to. Cheers.

I wonder if maybe the purpose of breathing in kata has been kinda lost. Well, apart from everyone's favourite reason for breathing, of course! I was led to believe that practicing control of breathing (especially ibuki) was supposed to - after MUCH practice - enable the practioner to ... um, not feel pain? Absorb/ignore pain? Something along those lines.

Nooms

Breath control is of the utmost of importance in karate training. Kata such as Sanchin for example should be learnt early and continue to be practice throughout your training as, amongst other things, this kata introduces breath control to the student. More importantly, ibuki breathing teaches breath control in conjunction with muscular development - basically how to breath when executing techniques.

To say that ibuki (or breathing in general) has been removed from modern karate is probably true in part, but I wouldn't accept that it has lost its meaning in karate (which I realise you're not suggesting). What I would argue though is that modern karateka who don't take the time to understand and practice the benefits of breath control are really missing one of the key aspects of karate training.

As to whether such practice allows you to absorb pain? Might relate to the muscle control when executing technique. Sanchin helps your body remain strong and controlled, while at the same time allowing you to breath. Is that what you're meaning? In which case, no it doesn't make you super-strong, but it allows you to understand how to manipulate (?) your body, through breath and muscle control, to reduce the effect of blows to your body. Doesn't mean it still doesn't hurt though

Good discussion!
JC

Not just the muscle control - I think there is a theory that reverse breathing deadens neuro transmitters or something. Might be time I went and did some reading.