Hi

I'm new here, there seems a lot of people training in many different styes here, so here goes. Which Kata would you add to the GKR syllabus? why would you do this and what grade do you think it should be used for?

Graham

What kata are currently within the GKR syllabus?

taigyoku shodan - 8th kyu
taigyoku nidan - 7th kyu (created kata)
saifa - 6th and 5th kyu
bassai dai - 4th and 3rd kyu
seiunchin - 2nd kyu
empi - 1st kyu
sanseru/sepai - shodan ho
Sepai/Hangetsu - Black Belt - 1st Dan
Kanku-Dai/Kururunfa - Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Shisochin/Kanku-sho - Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Seisan/Sochin - Black Belt - 4th Dan

I'd like to see the Tekki katas added to the syllabus, prob Tekki 1 at arround 4th kyu and the others for shodan. These katas are very different to any other kata in GKR and would help teach upper body coordination, and develop kiba dachi.

Just my thoughts

Graham

Hmmm, well I would probably take out taigyoku shodan and taigyoku nidan, to create a bit of space. I agree with gss201 with adding in the Tekki kata; there is nothing else like them, and therefore a whole new set of principles can be gained from them. I would not necessarily add in the heian/pinan kata because you have kanku dai, which teaches all the principles behind them anyway. So what I would probably do is introduce kanku dai at an earlier level.

I don't know much about goju so I am not sure about what "level" kata these are considered in a full goju club, however I am surprised that from a Shotokan perspective there is only one kata above what is considered shodan kata in the majority of clubs. So I would probably add a couple of higher level kata. Oh having reread the list I would definitely add Bassai Sho to complement Bassai Dai - by studying the sho and dai version one can often find out a lot about what a kata is trying to impart.

All this comes with a disclaimer that I don't know the goju kata, so I can't get a full picture as I don't know the principles/techniques etc. behind them.

Tensho. Its an all encompassing kata...strength, weight and momentum control, basic straight punches and a plethora of escapes and breakholds.

Do you however consider the point is a bit moot if they are being taught simply to look good?

I'm probably biased (being Goju), but I'd drop the taigyoku katas and replace them with the gekesai katas. Along with that I'd add sanchin and tensho as core kata from the start. I'd also swap bassai dai and empi around grade wise, so that seiunchin followed saifa and drop hangestu (as it's covered by seisan).

Along with that I'd introduce prescribed bunkai as a grade requirement from 8th kyu up to encourage proper understanding of the katas.

I would then shoot the pig that flew past and have a nice fresh bacon sandwich.......

thanks markp

Do you always carry a gun?



I caught my RM out on this particualr note, he often explains kata moves in terms of looking better, and when I questioned him on this he simply said that since we only practice kata as a solitary thing,the only way to tell if it is right is if it looks good. That alarmed me greatly.

And so it should.

Mike

I second this. Some katas that involves tension breathing should be included.

Bunkai and self-defense scenarios should be part of the examination, starting as soon as green belt. (I had a little bit of this from my grading but I know it is not official and only had been done because black belt grading is usually longer and RM has more time to see every aspects of our Karate.)

P.S. Now it makes me wonder why I didn't raise these questions to Kancho when he came to NZ...

Just my $0.02NZD,

Geek boy

Perhaps an arrangement of kata that was designed to introduce fundamental principles early and eventually develop more dynamic concepts later in more advanced kata.

I see little reason, though I understand why, the kata have been arranged as they currently are. I also see little reason why kata included in the GKR syllabus appear limited in the way they are - they seem like "the best of what someone knew". Nice in theory, but where is the system of learning to be derived from?

I couldn't suggest adding or removing any kata beyond those already suggested. A kata syllabus needs to be limited when mixing schools of thought though. I would just like to see an arrangement of the kata syllabus with meaning, rather than ambiguity.

JC

Sorry about the old bump but I have been discussing something very similar to this in another forum.

The way I see it, if you want to blend two systems you need to study them both in depth and find out the strengths and weaknesses within each system. you then try and combine the strengths whilst omitting or covering as many of the weaknesses as possible. If you don't understand the two systems enough you will end up with a third system that is no improvement on the individual two, and in fact could be weakened by the mismatch of styles. If you look at Goju the biggest part of their art, the thing that defines goju more than anything else is Sanchin. Omitting Sanchin from a system purporting to have at least half of it's roots in Goju is somewhat absurd (IMO). In the same way Shotokan is exemplified by Kanku dai and the Tekki Series. Once you take the foundations of an art you can then build a strong art on top, if you leave out the foundations then you will only ever have a weak core to build on and everything else will reflect this.

The question to ask is what is the GKR selling point that sole training in Shotokan or Goju Ryu does not offer?

A few of the BB senseis who have been around for 15+ years (not common in GKR) know tensho and gekisai, and I think they know sanchin as well. these kata were once required for certain grades and occasionally they are shown to the newer senseis for reasons unclear.

For example one sensei taught a 1st Kyu sensei tensho to be used in a demonstartion where the sensei was belted with broomsticks (she didn't budge and inch), and another sensei showed a group of lower grades (inc me) Gekisai, or at least his version of it. I can't remember for sure but I think another sensei performed sanchin for his class about 6 months ago.

Many GKR students call seiunchin "sanchin" because of the stance.

Thats one of my pet hates, drives me nuts!!!

If that were the reason, surely they would be calling it "shiko"?

To clarify, they are just don't know the difference between the two words. They first learn "sanchin" dachi at yellow belt and then hear about kata "seiunchin" later on, and many pronounce them both the same. It doesn't mean anything in the big picture but once I knew there IS a difference it niggles me when I hear it.

A frog sitting in a pond will find stability and safety by sitting on 2 waterlillys. The petals provide a strong foundation and support his needs, which include among other things to see the pond from relative safety and a controlled point of view from which he is comfortable.

If the frog sits on 1 waterlilly he has every chance of sinking deeper into the pond. He may not find the stability, though he begins to understand what lies beneath the surface. The precarious nature of the single lilly means he must pay particular attention to this lilly and learn all about it, such that he knows where to balance, how it sinks, what the lilly is like beneath. He may be less comfortable initially on his perch, but without doubt he will know the very nature of his waterlilly.

Some prefer ponds with 2 waterlillys, some with more than 2. It would be difficult to say that the frog who sits on one waterlilly did not know the nature of that waterlilly by the consequence of him sitting on it.

The question then becomes, it is better to sit and sink on one waterlilly, wait until you feel you are stable and know the lilly and the waters, before moving to a new waterlilly.

JC the Frog

Well IMO most of the current kata are not being taught by either goju or shotokan standards, I would suggest that they were. To add to this, I would also suggest that someone learnt to teach the applications. If this is not possible, throw all of these out and I would include:

Happoren
Chokyu
Seisan
Niseishi
Naifanchi
Passai
Hakutsuru-sho
Sanchin
Kushanku

I would also add some weapons kata… but then again GKR does not teach weapons, so that would not be possible…

Big

Not that I think its a good analogy, but....

Wont' the frog on two lillies find that his weight causes the two to move apart, his feet getting further and further apart, until eventually he falls in the water?

Mike

That's one possible (and beautifully put) analogy. I'll chuck another one in there though.

Two men decide to build a house. One man decided to spend a lot of time on the foundations, and everything is meticulously checked to ensure the foundations are strong and deep. As he builds each item is carefully planned and ensured that it is strong and to his high standards before he moves on to the next job.

The other man decides he is a bit more rushed so he doesn't really bother with the foundations and has no clear plan. He starts putting the bricks up and then yhalfway through decideds to stop and do some plastering, when he has plastered what he has previously bricked up he adds a few more layers on, before moving on to the windows.

One man will have invested a lot more time and effort into his project, but for his pains he will have a strong house that will last him for years to come.

The other man has a house that cost him half as much in half the time but you wouldn't want to be sitting in it the next time the wind blows up.


Two arts can be a powerful combination, but only if each art is understood.

So maybe what GKR did, was to mix n`match the two styles, hopefully creating a style which incorporated the strongest kata and techniques available.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the GKR syllabus (nothing that a little more bunkai wouldn't put right!) but I wonder why they chose the kata that they did, only to drop some of them at a later date.

And yet they have left out the core kata of Goju, left out Tekki and bunged in Kanku Dai at a ridculously high grade. See if I was attempting to build an uber style I would leave out the baby kata and just work on the ones that get to the real meat of the matter.

I suspect if someone was to cross-train in pure goju and pure shotokan they would appreciate a lot more about the positive principles of each art, and try and use the other art to plug any gaps. I'm not totally convinced of the need to cross-train across karate anyway.

That's one way of looking at it Mike but not the way I intended sorry.

I was trying to suggest that by standing on 2 waterlillys at the same time, there would be next to nope hope of finding out what lies beneath. Instead, the frog stays perched above water, thinking that he truelly knows the pond....O how misguided he be

JC

I like both analogy's.

for JC i would say have multiple waterlillys to stand on. One being your main base and others to act as pontoons and supply stability in extreme or unusual conditions which arise.

And Angela, one this very strong house has been built. If he deciedes he needs something for summer built a nice summer pergola, then in winter he might need a drying room.

What im really saying is people have always cross trained in the arts and for most of us it is still encouraged. What i find however is select a art which is considered well rounded ie good punches and kicks, some history or tradition, fits in the real world and maybe ground work. What you do then is fill in the gaps or enhance poor area's. However as we are all so different in our builds, focus, ability and age what we need to compliment us is different for all.

For me i mixed my goju with two years of judo. and for me it was great. but i kept my strong house in goju as Angela put. Others from my style did BJJ, some others savante, one guy capaoerra and one russian sambo. But we all kept our strong house well maintained and just picked what select area's to add.

One of my fears of some mixed styles is if you learn the basics of goju and the basics of shotokan for example 1. they may not be complementory, 2. they may take a lot longer to learn combined and therefore stop students from moving to more complex techniques. 3. the styles may be modified so as to not have 40 odd kata. However what do you drop or add, the styles usually have a progression series which should really be learnt as a block with applications etc.

Other anwser if it has any goju in it, it should have sanchin.

cheers
Freek