I've spoken to a few people in GKR in my region, including my RM, and some of the answers include:

"It's practising different ways to defend against multiple attackers"

"It's practising different combinations"

"Kata is the way we fight, the difference between us and street fighters"

"tradition"

"It shows how good your karate is"

"It develops body movement"

"Because we have to"

None of these explanations give me a complete answer, and most are really just stating observations they've made, which leads me to believe what everybody else probably already knows: almost nobody in GKR has any idea why they are doing kata. What would happen to our fighting ability if we didn't do kata? Is it just a performance for when there is nobody to fight?

Cheers,
Boz

Well said Boz

You are spot on, I would say that 99% of instructors out there dont understand kata. Too many people learn it for looks or to score points in a tournament.

Ask most people for some applications for kata and they havent got a clue, ask them to perform the bunkai and they wouldnt know where to start. Infact from what I understand most people on here are getting bunkai confused with kyogi kumite.

Bunkai is usually a set pattern of applications to the kata, the kata is usually broken down into 4 or 5 parts it has an attacking side and a defensive side so that makes 8 or 10 parts you have to learn. You then partner up and perform the bunkai together, as you get better you will start to get faster and faster, then you can start to perform bunkai kumite, this is where you perform the bunkai at speed with a partner, this is free flowing and looks like jyu kumite it is great for demonstrations etc. it will take you 2 to 3 years to get at this stage with one bunkai, no less.The purpose of bunkai is that it is a starting point for you to start to learn kyogi kumite, this is where you have to come up with your own applications to the kata.

In kyogi kumite you are asked to show an application for certain parts of the kata, it could be any part I have even seen people asked to show an application for the bow out at the end of the kata. When they ask you for the part of the kata that they want an application for they will then select a partner for you to demonstrate it.

FOr our black belt gradings you have to perform 25 kyogis for seeinchin kata, you dont know what parts, its random. Sometimes you will have to come up with 2 or 3 applications to 1 move in the kata and sometimes you have to demonstrate your application with different sized opponents, its totally up to the shihan, kyoshi or hanshi or whoever is running the grading. So the only preparation you can make is to have a full understanding of what you are doing in the kata, this makes it a whole lot more interesting than learning kata for looks.

So from what I have gathered gkr does not perform bunkai all they do is give you a couple of kyogis that someone has come up with somewhere in the club, most of which are totally unrealistic and probably dont come close to working. So next time your instructor gives you an application to kata, ask him or her some questions about it such as " would that work if the guy attacking you was 7foot tall and weighed 150 kgs" I'm seriuos, these are the questions you need to ask. Your instructor has a responsability to not accept his black belt if he cannot answer questions like this.

My 2 bobs worth

rocket

Hi Rocket,

I don't use the term 'Kyogi Kumite' or 'kyogis'- my dictionary came up with 'falsehood or untrue' as the meaning of Kyogi!?! Modern Goju as created and promoted by Miyagi Chojun uses a different technology to the Shuri derivatives that I have trained in. I don't teach applications the way you have learned them in set patterns and in prescribed partner sets.

My karate is simple and direct and I teach how one would apply karate techniques rather than how one could use an application in 3 or more different ways. That doesn't mean I'm knocking your way or I can't teach more ways to use a technique.. for me it is redundancy and I'm old and crotchety

Kata has more uses than applications as some are foundational, others to practise certain techniques and some are related to self-defense examples in regard to particular situations and teachers show examples rather than if he does X you do Y. I read your reply with interest and appreciate there is a difference in our systems.

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Boz

Thanks for your reply,

the set patterns or bunkai that we teach are just a starting point, we are not saying that this is the application so this is how it is done. It is simply a means to get the student to think for themselves and to give them some ideas as to how their kata can be used in different ways for self defence. It allows them to get creative and work out what works for them, also the bunkai that we do dramatically improves the students kumite in that it teaches timing accuracy speed or kime, they also have alot of takedowns in them, and helps the student learn how to put an opponent off balance and to control them.

thanking you again

rocket

p.s. what do you train in and who with, your obviously not gkr.

Hi Rocket,

In my experience all instructors do/should know this. If they do not know this, then they should not be an instructor. Perhaps you mean 99% of instructors of a a certian style do not know this...

Big

www.aka.com.au
Boz

Yeah mate you are right,
I did mean 99% of instructors from a certain style, I just didnt have the guts to say it on here.

rocket

Hi Boz

Thanks mate, I checked out your site, very impressive mate. I would love to visit your dojo sometime, I travel to Brisbane often my next trip will be in January next year. I will be spending a week on Straddie for a holiday but will be there for approx 3 weeks for training. Tino Hanshi is holding a training camp at Caloundra in mid January for the weekend, then I will be spending some of my time with Hanshi at REdcliffe and the rest of my time at my mates place at Camp Hill. I have forgotten where your dojo is, but I will definitely like to get there for a class at some stage.

Yours in Karate-Do

Rocket.

Hi Big, Boz and Rocket.
Interesting thread and I am enjoying it. I think a lot of those 99% instructors do become aware of this issue and try to do their best to find this stuf out. They ask questions of RMs etc and all too often get told it is not importat to know this stuff and not to ask again. This becomes very frustrating and they choose to leave. I know I did.

Hi Leela

Have you found a new club yet?

The rms dont give you the bunkai answers because they dont know them, and they dont know them because their instructors most probably dont know them. Last year Kancho Sullivan hired Tino Ceberano Hanshi to give him and the Zone directors some training, when Tino returned home from the weekend with Kancho sullivan he called me to tell me how it went, I asked him what he showed them his reply was "i couldnt show them much at all because they didnt understand it". He also said that he did a few things with Nabil fanous Sensei where Nabil ended up on the floor a couple of times tied up like a pretzel. When Nabil asked Hanshi what he had just done to him his reply was " you should know because it is in the katas that you do, see if you can find it yourself". I thought this was great.

This should explain why you cant get the answers from your rm.

Rocket

Excuse me for quoting such an old post.

Does this mean that your kata are comprised purely of techniques which you also practise outside of kata? This would make excellent sense.

Woyuld it be better (if not perfect) if senseis took what they know in terms of basics, and made new katas to match their basics, because at least that way they have a tool they know how to use.

Even Taigyoku Shodan seems wrong.

Hi Brad,
1. Have you ever played tennis? You practise drills such as a backhand drive in a full body motion but in a tennis match you apply that same technique as you must on the run, in the air, etc. Kata techniques are about form and are karate techniques in application. Karate is applied in motion and kata are performed in snapshots.

2. No.. because many instructors (instructors call numbers) only know kata basics and that doesn't teach them anything. Plenty of them make up new combinations that make no sense. They could string a number of combinations together but then they would have another kata they would not know how to use.

3. Taikyokyu kata is a training kata but lunge punch can be broken down into the basic punches and downward block can be broken down into its application within that kata.

If instructors don't know how to use a map then they will never guide you to where you want to end up.

Cheers,
Bob

In my dojo we are actually graded on oyo, and from green belt and up we are expected to be incorporating moves from kata into our defences. If the examiner does not see any recognisable applications then the students may later be verbally asked for an application from their (or any previous) kata. By the time we get to black belt most students can usually come up with an application for any move in any kata, even if it's a kata they don't yet know. By understanding the principles behind the moves it becomes easier to break them down into workable bunkai.

Thanks everyone, for your posts so far.



I think I'm coming to understand what kata is actually meant to do.

In a fight situation, An attack would prompt the karate practitioner to react instinctively, knowing which kata sequence--whether it be five 'moves' or a strike/stance combination--to use.

I think this would have been clearer to me in the first place if GKR katas did not include throws, grapples etc, because if I understand Boz coorectly, there is no point learning an application without learning the technique itself.

Am I close?

Hi Brad,
No, you are no closer. You need hands on teaching.

Boz

That would be like stringing together techniques and calling it a kata of all the techniques taught in a system, wouldn't it? And if so, wouldn't it be a fairly pointless exercise?



This bit I think is right..


This bit I think just mucks it all up. Training with a partner in class and using scenarios to train specific techniques and then using kata as homework (as Boz has said somewhere) to practice the movements without an available partner.. It doesn't matter which sequence or even which kata you "use" when you need to respond to an attack, there is no time to think. Which is a big reason why there is no substitute for training with a partner as the preferred method.


All kata contain throws, restraints etc. Some systems have a "set bunkai" for their kata which students learn, others take an "anything goes" approach and still others make up stuff which seems to fit but which doesn't stand up under the cold hard light of common sense...


Mick

This is where I get stuck, because in GKR we never actually get taught any throws or restraints unless its some money-grabbing seminar. That story rocket73 posted concerning tino Ceberano and Nabil Fanous is probably a prime example of the fact these type of techniques are not taught. They are just 'hidden' in kata.



But certain moves won't work against certain attacks, i presume, but the right technique has to be instinctive, and this is developed through using kata for partner work? Because without partner work we can't know how to apply kata?

So I guess teaching multiple applications for a move is detrimental because it requires too much thinking when a quick reaction is needed. besides, wouldn't the original creator of a kata intend each move to be used in only one application, instead of saying "this can be a block or a punch etc", regarless of the fact that creative people can imagine several applications of a move?

Well the way I do it is to use patterns of moves against patterns of attacks. Then it comes more down to positioning, angle, direction than what exactly the attack is. This is where I can link it to kata, using that as a generic base for practice.


Mick

Is where I always get stuck too.


Oddly enough, I feel like I posted the exact same thought a couple of months ago...
At the moment (which is a fairly muddled moment, admittedly) I think learning a set of applications from a move (or moves) in a kata makes a lot of sense. For each and every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction - but I think there is more than one reaction to most, if not all, attacking actions. If you learn only one application for each bit of a kata, you would have to learn a LOT of applications to cover yourself for any attack.

They are only hidden if you don't know where to look. If you want to expand your knowledge of kata and karate in general, you need to find a teacher that can help you look at the katas in the right way.


I can't argue with that statement.


I'm of the opinion that moves in kata were meant for more than one application. Karate contains a huge amount of techniques we can use in an endless number of scenarios. To try and record all eventualities in one kata would create a kata of enourmous length that would be impossible to remember, so instead they record the core fighting techniques and principles that are by nature multi-functional.

Think of the kata like a toolbox - the screwdriver is designed for putting screws in, but if needed it also works like a crowbar, bodges holes, scrapes things etc etc. Just because one tool was designed for a specific purpose doesn't mean it doesn't work effectively for a variety of other jobs.

If you think about kata in terms of principles instead of set applications I feel it becomes a little easier to understand. A move can be broken down into several applications because each one works on the same set of principles. Often as not there are the surface applications and the deeper applications. On top of that there are a set of "rules" that can generally be applied across the board; an example being "leave no gap".

It becomes alot easier to understand. Once your karate becomes principle led, not technique led, things seem alot clearer.......

What are some of these principles?
Are there no set applications?
How can one teach karate utilizing a dozen or even dozens of kata?
What is the relationship between 'snapshot' moves in kata and the application of karate techniques in combat and self defense?
In fact what is the difference between combat and self-defense?
"Leave no gap" is a recommendation used in both Judo, Jujutsu and Aikido.. how does it relate to karate-do?
At kyu and low dan grade level are some merely parroting what they've have been told or do they really understand kata?
Can one really understand kata after a few seminars or a few months in a new style?
These are the things I wonder about when I read the posts in this thread.

Boz
"The confidence of the amateur is the envy of the professional!" Author Unknown

Personally, I've been practicing Goju Ryu for 14 months now after 2 years of GKR; I wouldn't profess to "really understand" kata, but would profess to begining to understand kata and karate in general (through the kata) in much more depth than previously. I now have teachers that understand and can show how karate "works" - kata is one of the tools thay use to do this. I'm far from "knowing it all", but I now believe I'm looking in the right direction.


I'll post a reply to that later - haven't got time for a proper one at the mo....

Perhaps some people just aren't as comfortable explaining things in a textual format as you are? I have a friend who is extremely knowledgable about karate, and could talk to you for hours, but ask him to put something on to paper of computer and he'll be floating dead in the water.

Furthermore I think the question, "ARE there no set applications" is phrased wrong, and possibly a leading question to which no right answer can be gleaned. I would probably rephrase it to "were there set applications when the kata were originally constructed". My answer to that would be a probably yes, (even if in some cases the applications were for energetic reasons, correlating to traditional Chinese Medicine). However that knowledge has been lost over time and therefore unfortunately a lot of bunkai is achieved by reverse engineering, and yes, a lot of bunkai out there is absolute rubbish, but some very good bunkai has been developed because of years of dedicated training and research. (and a little bit of logical thought!)

Nevertheless the fact remains that kata teach certain principles, and a lot of kata have themes running through them. Balance points, centreline theory, body mechanics, quadrant theory, power direction and even such controversial paths such as five-element theory, energetics, chi gong etc. are all explored within kata if one understands what they are looking at and doesn't simply say a gedan barai is for blocking a stepping mae geri.

You ask how "leave no gap" applies to karate. Well karate has chokes and throws within the kata, so it applies in exactly the same way as the other martial arts you have picked up on. If there is a gap between the body and the arms then there is something of the opponents in it. In the same way we can look how the body works and in which directions it is strongest, for example the hand is strongest working in towards the heart. Then we can look at how important centreline is in TCM (conception vessel), and therefore can start to realise that if the centreline is exposed during kata there is a specific reason why - find the positioning of the opponent and realise that they are placed in a position whereby it is safe to "expose the centreline, as they cannot get to it. One cannot look at kata purely from a Western point of View as it was not developed in the West - so don't be surprised that a lot links in to Oriental Medicine, pressure points, meridians, centreline etc.

Look at stances with kata and see what principles they are showing. Direction, angles (45 degrees comes into a lot movements), spirals etc.

Look across the entire move, the whole range of body positions throughout A to B. Remember that stances are transitory positions, often the action is halfway through the movement, and therefore if an opponent is put in the way of the technique the end position will never be reached because there is a limb or head in the way. (Thinking about manji-gamae as a neck break, rather than seeing the end position and claiming it as a block against a front kick in front and jodan punch behind)

These are just some of the principles that work across a range of techniques and across the range of body types. By understanding these from really breaking down the kata then the techniques make sense, and eventually a piece of effective bunkai can be extrapolated, even if the kata has never been seen before.

I think we have to be wary of karate snobbery and assuming what people do or do not know. I also think people need to be aware of the amount of pigeonholing that occurs as soon as a specific style name is mentioned. It's very easy to develop a blinkered view; more is to be gained from opening the mind.

Hi Angela,

So you are saying that one should think of kata in terms of principles such as- you said "Nevertheless the fact remains that kata teach certain principles, and a lot of kata have themes running through them. Balance points, centreline theory, body mechanics, quadrant theory, power direction and even such controversial paths such as five-element theory, energetics, chi gong etc. are all explored within kata if one understands what they are looking at and doesn't simply say a gedan barai is for blocking a stepping mae geri. "?

And you know all this or did you copy it out of a book perhaps?

BTW how would you block a stepping mae geri if you had no chance of getting out of the way?

I don't believe kata teach certain principles at all. Teachers that understand kata can teach principles but all traditional karateka learn kata but not all know what they mean nor the principles you speak about. I'm pretty sure the Okinawan pioneers of karate had little idea of those principles either being more concerned with the pragmatic effects and not the theory of the Chinese Martial Arts.
Regards,
Boz

That's just plain rude, Boz. *slaps Boz on the wrist*


I read that differently - I thought it was implied that you can find things in kata if you choose to - if you don't leave it at "that's a gedan barai. That's the way to block a stepping mae geri"....



That's actually a good point. I think... kata doesn't teach principles, but (knowledgeable) teachers teach principles from kata? Or just principles?

I'm not as much of an old curmudgeon as Boz:-) I'm forced to agree with him, up to a point, that practice of the kata in itself does not teach any principles. I do believe however that the kata embody both principles of body mechanics/dynamics and principles of combat. A decent teacher should be able to tease out those principles to aid a student's understanding of kata.

I'm afraid though that I can't accept that kata embody methods of disrupting an opponent's qi (if you consider qi to be some esoteric energy beyond the grasp of modern science). Talk of 5 elements, quadrant theory, centreline theory is just about 'gilding the lilly' in my opinion. Such energetic ideas can be traced to a handful of american instructors in the late 1980's. I'm afraid their intent was not to promote practical martial arts, but simply to market this kind of guff to an unsuspecting martial arts public in order to sell their seminars, books, videos etc. - usually at rather inflated prices.

How well do the people who sell this stuff really understand oriental medicine? I've yet to come across a single such 'expert' who has actually studied oriental medicine in a formal manner. They've either read a few books and/or trained with another such instructor who picked it up from reading a few books.

What makes me any better judge in this regard? Well I have studied oriental medicine in a formal setting. I have formal qualifications in TCM and I work week in week out as a Shiatsu therapist. Does it make me the final authority? No, but its given me enough insight that I can recognise complete rubbish when I see it.

Angela, I don't expect you to believe what I say in this regard. All I ask is that you critically analyse what your instructors tell you, that you think about it, that you test it out, that you ask them where they learned this stuff, and where their teachers learned it. Ultimately you must convince yourself of what you think is real and what isn't.

You might find this link of interest....

http://www.ussu.net/karatejutsu/articles.htm

Mike

First of all Boz, if someone came in with a stepping mae geri, I would shift/parry/evade/redirect - and then I would do whatever need to do. Secondly I would go and report him to his sensei for fighting in the streets. Non-Karateka just don't DO stepping mae geri, and as I am not about to go out and start any fights the likelihood that I would have to deal with a long range incoming mae geri is minimal.

Secondly, in your righteous ire you are doing nothing more than contradicting yourself throughout this thread. And I'm afraid I see the arguments you have come up with as blinkered, illogical and perhaps with a lack of proper foundation in your teaching. I also think you are coming across as extremely arrogant, and dare I say it, rude. Does you dojo not teach the more esoteric aspects of karate-do?

Now you must excuse me, I have to go and find more books to copy my next post from

Sorry but I think such convoluted sentences muddy the waters. If you can prise constant principles out of every kata the next step is to start considering that mayeb the kata are trying to teach said principles. And as I said, the a lot of the original bunkai is lost, gone forever. Therefore the best we can can do is look at the rules/principles involved and attempt to second guess what the intention was behind the move. Some bunkai can be worked out by studying applications for moves that have survived intact.



I do step back and think about what my instructors tell me (and the people I have travelled all over to train with). I do not consider myself a mindless drone, and I have undertaken a lot of research on my own.

I also believe that you are still considering karate too much with the Western mindset. The Okinawans/Chinese really believed in stuff like 5 element theory, it was a real to them then as Modern Western medicine is now. So if a doctor says, a strike to here hits this nerve and can cause severe brain damage we will most probably believe them. In the same way they believed if they hit certain points on the body it would cause disruption and/or death. To break down a kata, which is what bunkai really is, and to study it in the minutae, it is amazing how strikes etc. follow 5 element theory. And I don't mean in a Dillman.com sense, which is what most people visualise as soon as anyone dares mention anything like pressure points.

Furthermore I think a lot of the misinformation comes about because of the ongoing myths, which are passed down from student to student. Myths like "Karate was learnt by the peasant farmers". Really? So the peasant farmers who were working all the daylight hours, barely living hand to mouth, coping with poverty, disease and surpression then all had time to go and train in a complicated martial art??? No, the fact is karate was practiced by people that were in a position to do so. Court bodyguards, soldiers etc. Even Funakoshi sensei was a teacher, which was an eminent position. These were educated men, who would have been aware of some of the more medical side affects of what they were doing.

I don't expect you to believe what I am saying, and to be honest I don't really mind either way. However I do expect to be treated with a modicum of respect and therefore I won't engage in further debate with people that assume I am some mindless drone parroting what my instructor has told me, with little understanding of what he means (after all I am an assistant instructor and therefore I always want to verify what I am being told before I pass it on); or people that think I am quoting from books. I've invested a lot of time, energy and money in my karate, and therefore please excuse me if I am a little protective over what I have learnt.

Hi Angela,

Oh you are too smart for me.. sorry for questioning your comments. Its just that I really tire of the 5 minute experts.

Boz

Angela you've said most of what I was going to say...and a bit more. Your approach to kata/principles/application is pretty much the way I try to look at it.

Boz, it seems I'm one of those "5 minute experts" you talk about. The thing is, I don't profess to be an expert after 3 years of training. What I am is someone who has an interest in learning about karate instead of blindly copying my instructors. I ask questions, attend courses, read books and try and keep an open mind. I also like to engage in discussions on forums like this with people like yourself to hopefully expand my knowledge; just putting people down because they have less time in m/a than you is both rude and unproductive.

Today's "5 minute expert" is tomorrow's full blown qualified expert. I wasn't aware that there was a timescale for finding things out. If I'm wrong, tell me why - I'm listening. Belittling people neither suits you or progresses the debate.

I apologise if I muddied the waters, I had thought my meaning was quite clear. But I take your point if you’re referring to embodying principles versus teaching them. This is in part an argument over semantics and isn’t therefore very important IMO. What matters is whether the principles are there or not, and I do agree with you that some principles at least are there.



Good, then I’m sure we can engage in meaningful dialogue without either of us taking it personally.



I think the fact that I actually took the time to study Chinese medicine formally indicates that I have as good an understanding of Chinese medicine and its place in Chinese culture as the majority of westerners (excepting those who may have spent sufficient time studying and living in the orient). We will have to differ on that point.



I’ve been involved in discussions regarding the use of Chinese medicine concepts in martial arts since 1998, with various groups, yes including Dillman’s camp but also others who espouse the use of 5 elements etc. I have consistently found all of their TCM assertions to be confused, without foundation and a misapplication of what Chinese medicine is about.



Its not clear to me why that’s relevant. I don’t think I’m particularly in need of a lesson on Okinawan martial history, unless its going to be information that isn’t already in the public domain. I do have some (admittedly limited) understanding of the class structure of pre-Meiji Restoration Okinawan culture. Mind, on that particular point, its worth bearing in mind that whilst Okinawan te practitioners were essentially of the warrior classes, by the mid 19th century many of them had indeed become impoverished farmers. Funakoshi’s family is a case in point. Perhaps this contributed to the myth of ‘peasant farmers’.



I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you Angela, I’m sorry if I’ve come across that way. And I don’t mean to imply you’re a mindless drone. I’m merely attempting to encourage you to be ever-critical of all that you learn, from whatever source. However, I do feel duty bound to speak out when people promote as fact ideas about Chinese medicine which I consider to be fanciful, far-fetched and an irrelevant distraction to serious martial art training.

Mike

Mark,
I grow tired of ex-GKR students returning to boast how they now have the answers. All I ever see in your contributions, and others, is a lot of rhetoric and bugger all content. If you could post just something that contributed to the knowledge of those on the forum I would never say anything rude or unproductive. Its not you personally or anyone else, its the attitude that bothers me. GKR have people instructing that should be training under an instructor and the forums have a stack of internet experts handing out their expert opinion when they are novices. You could take a lesson from Mike Flanagan, I have challenged him on his comments and we have had a decent debate, without resorting to personal accusations of being rude, blah, blah, blah. You and Angela have both demonstrated your fragile egos.
Boz

You have every right to discuss what you think, without anyone being rude to you. Because of the nature of karate, the fact that very litle was written down, that so much information has been lost, and so much more destroyed during WW2, a lot of what people assume today is based on their own assumptions - it's just some people's are a little more backed up by research, other people just choose to shout the loudest in order to get their views across, and still others just make it up.

Boz, your comments about "5 minute experts" do little to further your cause. What next? Pulling rank? With the greatest respect due to the fact that I have never trained with you and therefore I am not familiar with what you are or are not capable of, I'm afraid your rank is pretty much irrelevant to me. I prefer to be able to judge a person on their own merits (although obviously some karateka come very highly recommended to me). You have obviously made a lot of assumptions about me and my training. Fair enough. I think I'll survive.

I actually feel your approach is extremely rude. I hope you are enjoying it up there on your lofty perch.


Sure you've managed to stay civil and friendly throughout haven't you.

I can't ever recall claiming to "have all the answers" Boz. You obviously do by the sounds of it, so there's no point in anyone else putting forward a point of view.

I was going to say alot more, but I really can't be arsed. I shall go stroke my fragile ego elsewhere.

I'm not going to continue this discussion anymore as it has turned sour and I'm happy to share the blame. Apologies to the forum members.

Boz

Right - this used to be a friendly place. One of the only rules is no personal attacks. I think if everyone thought a little bit about whether their comments are directed at the person or their argument there'd be a lot less problems.

Mark - sorry mate you're not allowed to go anywhere else.....didnt you read the small print when you registered?? .

Boz - we're trying to attract good members and discussion not turn it off... Pack it in please.

We now hopefully return to our otherwise mature chat.

Apologies if I've offended anyone with any previous posts - that wans't my intention. Any points of view I post here are welcome to be challenged and disagreed with by anyone, anytime. I only post to share what I've learned and hopefully progress my own and other's knowledge along the way.

One thing is clear though - I'm no longer with GKR and as such, should probably leave the site to those who are. I hope the site moves forward in a positive vein and wish the members all the best in their training.

Mark

Ignorant 19 y/o GKR red-belt steps in.

Let's see...

It's interesting that nobody has suggested a reason why not to do kata, putting on the 'black hat', if you know what I mean.

Hypothtically what would happen if I didn't do kata? If I practised my basics for twenty years until they were exactly as my instructor wished them to be, and I could execute a technique perfectly every time, any time, then what would happen in a fight? Would I just strike my opponent so quickly an powerfully that the punch they started to throw would even reach me?

I think what I wanted to know from this thread was not the benefits of kata, but instead i needed someone to explain why I am inferior without it? I know some clubs don't practice kata, but can't see how this alone could make them inferior.

And can we lose the "my club does this..." because I don't know anything about other clubs and their reputuations

Yes... An aquiantance at work (ok, my Boss) did full-contact karate for several years in the 80s- When I asked what katas he studied, he replied that it was optional - And that all gradings were conducted in-house, and that all students were graded on their fighting ability alone.

His Dojo seemed to me to more of one of those "total fighting schools" rather than an actual Karate school as such.

But with GKR, Kata is the primary category for grading, and is taught as such, sadly.

I think you'd burst into flames or something

That'd be due to the look off your instructor if you said you DIDN'T want to do kata then

exactly why I don't like it very much.

Yeah....... I smypathise with you. Would you enjoy it more if you were taught the reasoning and the meaning behind what you`re doing? rather than "Oh hell, my bassai dai/saifa/ insert-kata-here is terrible, I`m gonna fail grading"
I know I would..........

There are very effective martial arts that don't use kata in the same way as we do in Karate. So kata is not absolutely essential. However, I do think it can be a very effective training drill, if done correctly. Sadly most karate systems just don't do it correctly, in which case it has very little value at all.

Mike

Hi Brad,

You ask a good question.

If your basics consist of things such as practising stances such as long front stances, deep shiko and kiba dachi and basic kata blocks such as shuto, uke, uchi and age uke plus gedan barai then front and side kicks, solo and in combinations then I see little benefit asyou would be practising the basics for performing kata. To strike an opponent one needs to understand distance, timing, strategic deception and to have the confidence that one's technique has penetrating impact sufficient to do the job. These things can be learned without kata.

I was taught that kata were once the kihon of karate as they are solo practise of single and combination techniques placed in such a way as to give clues about how they are used. Once karate (or Te) was to be promoted in schools and the community in general, kata was changed to fit in with the current thinking of the value of Physical Education programs. The timing of kata was simplified and underwent further change in Japan in regard to the 'snapshot' kata methods seen in other Japanese Martial Arts.

I have to repeat myself again sorry, when I say that there are foundation kata, practise kata and self-defense/combat type kata. Naifanchi (Tekki), Sanchin and Seisan were used to build a foundation using the right muscles and instilling certain principles such as executing techniques in a restricted space, moving from one position to another with little chambering to hide their intended strikes and increase speed/timing. Choki Motobu knew many kata but chose to focus on Naifanchi and could teach a student all they needed to know in just 6 months.

The Pinan and the Gekisai series have great application and provide plenty of practice of a good number of techniques. The PE influence can be seen in the mirroring of many techniques as in PE it is important to train both sides of the body.
Self-defense and combat kata are best utilized by extrapolating the techniques contained in them into two-person drills. The basics as performed in kata can then be applied freely as they should be. Kata without the accompanying partner drills is
the real problem in modern day karate. Techniques of impact need to be trained with both a partner for timing and with a bag/makiwara for targeting and impact training.

The one thing usually avoided is that of how to apply the 'blocks' found in kata. No one seems to understand how the older karate and newer karate differ in utilising blocks. Some strikes were changed to blocks, ala Bassai Dai, the series of uchi and soto uke can be seen in Oyadomari Passai as a series of sword hand strikes. Shuto uke (chudan) is still performed as a kake uke (hooking) in Shitoryu kata. Older karate preferred to get inside the opponent's guard while in the latter day we prefer to work on the outside.

You don't need kata to learn karate or how to defend yourself, i.e. fight, but its easier to learn anything when you have a manual, especially one you can carry in your head and in muscle memory.

Cheers,
boz

It was mentioned that Kata delevopes spirit or creates personal growth. In the current day and age this does not happen.

I believe the myth of such things stems back to the time when you would perform Sanchin etc for 5 years before you were allowed to become a full student or learn another kata. Im sure that people with no focus or who were easily swayed by the party life quit, this weeded out people and probably gave the impression that they grew as a person or developed an inner peace.

Unlike todays styles which have 50+ kata?or mix 5 styles and try to teach all katas you might have only learnt 3 katas in your entire life.

In Goju you would learn Sanchin and based on your body type and preferences would be shown 1-2 more kata ie Saifa and Shisochin and then developed your own personal style.

A book came out last year by a 6th Dan relating his time spent on one kata. I believe its called 5 years 1 kata.

I dont think the kata gives you some amazing insight or inner peace etc
but time does as i get older i accept what i cant do and i am happier with what i can. This isnt even a Karate thing its just a happy person thing. It todays age of instant everything the 5 minute expert will never know the truth, they dont have the patience to find out. Even if there were an amazing insight hidden in kata, who here has the time and patience to study the 1 kata for 5-10 years to find out.

Maybe if we all look at a basic kata we know and in 10 years if we are still training, look back at that kata. Then we can resume this discussion.

cheers
Freek